How much can be measured -- and how much cannot?

Tbg, What that tells you is that M Fremer is either not sensitive to the results of the 'bad measurement', that his equipment isn't sensitive enough to reveal the result of the bad measurement, or as often, that the 'bad measurement' is insignificant in real world conditions.

Unsound's comments about FM tuner spec's are correct, but as always with measurements those specs alone tell you nothing about how the unit will sound beyond its ability to pick up a clean signal. Yet a lot of folks can't tell the difference between the various tuners actual sound and buy them based on these spec's. It's curious that in a famous FM tuner site which has published a lot of reviews and has ranked tuners this is more true than anywhere. Very few of the reviewers are actually audio freaks, they a radio freaks, yet folks talk about the review rankings as if it were gospel.

FWIW to make measurements meaningful you must know in real life what they mean and how you can use the information productively. Just seeing and comparing spec's is a meaningless activity - often the most meaningful spec's, especially from manufacturers, is missing. Impedance curves for speakers and amps for example, which are very important, are hardly ever seen except in reviews by folks like Atkinson. Although I do recall one speaker manufacturer who did, but if you saw the curve you would know why - dammed near flat gentle curve between 5 and 8 ohms with nominal 6ohm rating. Just as with spec's, reviews are for the most part useless unless you have a good handle on the reviewers preferences and competence.

Bottom line, knowledge is great but hard to come by and even when possessed it isn't worth a crap if you don't know how to use it. :-) Sooner or later, if you last long enough, you will identify the spec's that will be meaningful to you and those you can safely ignore (most of the time).

Sabai,

The problem with that is when its all said and done you are still just getting opinions which will lead you to believe that one of three things have occurred; 1) the measurement is inaudible to the most sophisticated ear using the most sophisticated equipment which as to that particular measurement it is meaningless except there it is on the test equipment; 2) that these same folks with the same equipment can hear the the effect of the measurement but thinks it doesn't materially affect the sound they deem important; or 3) that their listening skills or equipment are not up to standard for evaluating equipment, or that they just can't hear it because of their actual hearing limitations. What would a magazine have to gain by pursuing the testing/review you suggest. The finding has to affect the magazine and/or its reviewers negatively.

Interestingly I can think of one internet mag that uses two reviewers on many/all of its review who review the product separately. They publish each review but make no attempt to reconcile any differences which there often are.

Hobby magazines in general rarely publish negative reviews of anything, its just bad for business. As close as they will come is when someone like Adkinson measures spec's and points out deviations from manufacturers spec's or things HE thinks are meaningful for users and lets you draw your own conclusions whether you feel they are relevant, or on a rare occasion a reviewer will parse words in a way that MIGHT alert a potential user that it ain't up to snuff. But the reader has to put on his thinking cap to sort it all out. That is why personal knowledge is so important.

LOL, while your choices are correct I do not think they are the only ones available. You might choose to think that not only Atkinson's valuation of the results of the component's deficiencies might be wrong, but so could the reviewers conclusions from his listening sessions.

One of the things all audiophiles experience in evaluating components is recognizing initially everything that is happening at one time. Usually subtle changes brought about by components deficiencies only creeps in with time, sometimes a long time. I'll spare you examples. But in this case I think it sez a lot about JA's integrity (if not his sonic preferences) that after discovering the measurements discrepancy he didn't simply call Fremer and tell him what he measured which would have allowed Fremer to incorporate it in some way in his review. A very pratical solution from a PR point of view - nobody loses and the audience never knows.

Interesting.................

Sabai, More than anything else I was laughing at my self for allowing myself to be drawn into a discussion of magazine reviews/reviewers. I truly am an agnostic when it comes to most anything they publish. I haven't subscribed to any in years. That said I do believe JA's measurements can be helpful to those who know how to use them and I thought I should defend them on that issue alone.

In the 'beginning' I wasted a lot of money primarily based on published reports,tests,opinions, and a certain salesmanship pushing me on to chasing the latest, best etc. I waited anxiously for the next issue to arrive each month. Frankly, I had insufficient experience to make judgments on my own and they were my primary source.

Then I found this wonderful source of information - The Internet. Wow, now I had at my disposal user's as well as designer's and manufacturer's comments on all things audio! A treasure trove of information which I used as a basis for forward progress. It was broad band info though and part of the exercise was discarding all of the BS from salesmen and proud tyros. But it was there for those who are interested.

My LOL was not about you. Forgive me if my construction implied otherwise.