Mapman, at this time there is no amp only version of the JRDG Continuum integrated amps. Dave perhaps can tell us if the linestage section can be bypassed. . . perhaps via the theater bypass input and unity gain? G. |
Muralman, I was still secretly hoping you would refrain from persisting in a round of "ma' PS's real bigger'n yourn". . . regretably I was mistaken.. . . enjoy your game. . . I's not playin'. Best, G. |
Thank you Vince, have fun. G. |
hmmm, me thinks last time I heard 'em voices I was 16. . . right in the middle of the Sturm und Drang of adolescence. . . now I'm only a crotchety old prankster foolin' 'round with words and audio components. |
I agree completely with one thing that Stanwal said:
"I would have a long listening session with any of them before buying"
That is because switching amps -- which in most cases are analog devices and not digital) -- like any other technologies, have a sound that is much more characteristic to a manufacturer or an individual model than to a 'class'. Thus the sound can range from bright and distorted to exceedingly musical, from extremely extended to limited in bandwidth, from 'dry' to harmonically rich and complex, from quite rough to incredibly subtle.
It is worth pointing out that the HiFi Critic article is almost 2 years old and that at least 2 of the amps reviewed there are obsolete and withdrawn. Furthermore, From a logician's point of view, the negative inductive reasoning used by the author to draw his generalized condamnation is essentially flawed. . . there may be close to 100 switching amps on the market today. . . he examined 3 and declared them to be wanting, then glibly proceeds to condemn the whole lot, based on his spectacularly limited observations. On the other hand his guilty virdict -- had been most likely decided 'a priori'.
If the same reviewer were to examine with a completely open mind current production of leading switching amplifiers such as the newest bel canto Ref 1000 Mk.2, JRDG 312, and latest Spectron monos (just to name the very few I am most familiar with)(, he may discover that the art and science of reproducing music is not the sole prerogative of traditional -- and sometimes nostalgic -- technologies.
Returning to the original question, within the very limited scope of my experience, one of the highest values in amplification -- regardless of class and technology -- may be the very moderately priced current crop of Bel Canto monoblock amps: the Ref 500 Mk.2 and the Ref 1000 Mk.2. As for which variant of underlying chip set may be best. . . it is a question for which there is no particularly valid answer. . . to paraphrase and old cliche. . . "Tubes and chips don't make music. . . designers with tubes and chips make music!"
G. |
Condocondor, I have no direct experience with the Bel Canto S500 stereo. Just looked at:
http://belcantodesign.com/new2008.html
By reading between the lines, it seems that the S500 may lack the input AC current rectification circuit of the Ref 1000 Mk.2 and Ref 500 Mk.2. I can only venture to guess that in the end the S500 may sound slightly less refined than its mono brothers. Yet, without direct experience, my guess has only the negligible value of the electrons you see on the screen to paint it. G. |
Of course I empathize with you Coffeey. . . it is really sad how things have the habit of being. . . and even more of changing and evolving. . . in spite of our better doubts, nostalgia for the safety of olden days, or tradition abiding skepticism. . . It's like we don't matter any longer to this mad mad World. . . 'Fore long we'll have to get out of the house and listen by wesselves to what's good with this hobby. . . because even the old tried and true "I truly believe it therefore it's true" does not sound so hot any longer among far too many young whippersnappers. . . there's no more Religion no more, I tell ya.
My very last refuge is in the stern wisdom of one of the greatest sages of our Age:
"Just don't fall into the category of those whose minds, like concrete, are thoroughly mixed up and permanently set"
RODMAN99999
Regards, G. |
Excellent points Stereo. I would like to add that at least 2 manufacturers (Bel Canto and JRDG) have started to add pre power supply current rectification in some models. This means that the power supply is essentially fed DC from a current reservoir of capacitors. The idea is the DC current is expected to:
1. largely eliminate 2 way AC line noise in and out of the amp.
2. Keep internal capacitors more optimally charged.
3. Be able to draw power for large transient from the DC reservoire regardless of the current state of AC 50/60 Hz phase.
4. Increase overall power conversion efficiency.
Some of these amps do sound amazingly musical to my ears. . . if and when more devices adopt various form of rectification prior to power supply, we may eventually be able to determine if there truly exists a correlation between input current rectification and sound quality. |
Marty, the good news is that John Stronczer's designs have evolved quite dramatically from the BC 300. . . you'd be amazed. . . I definitely was so, last night, with the $6K BC R1000 Mk.2 having broken the 400 hour mark.
Stanwal, have you considered quoting a little less 'old trombones', and relying on your ears a little more? If after that you still do not enjoy some of the top flight switching amps we are discussing on some of these threads, you will at least be speaking out of personal experience, rather than nostalging over the anachronistic pontifications of some old anchoret whose better times have long come and gone. |
Nospam, which class D amp suffered of the slight loose bass problem? and on what speakers? Thanks, Guido |
Thank you Nospam for the clarification. I would still like to know which ICEpower based amp you evaluated. Your assertion that recent production ICE amps have veiled highs across the board is an interesting proposition which I have not been able to verify. There are certainly some ICE-based amps that I heard at shows which sounded shrill to my ears, like there are SS and even tube amps that I feel the same about. There is one amp (Red Dragon) which I perceived to have limited yet ragged treble. On the other hand, I did not experience these to be generalized problems across all ICE amps.
I am currently evaluating a pair of Bel Canto Ref 1000 Mk.2s, which I experience to be extended in the treble and harmonically textured without sounding 'in my face'.
It is worth pointing out that ICE modules are not amps per se. . . they can be used to create very subtle sounding amps, or very basic ones, depending on the designers preference and philosophy. This is really the same as designing amps around 64550C or KT88 tubes. . . you do not tweak around these tubes. . . you use them as component pieces of a whole.
To give you an idea of the sonic differences I perceived within a single manufacturer, here are some capsule observations about a few Rowland amps based on ICEpower:
201 monos -- graceful but a little matter of fact and can run out of steam quickly on congested passages, in which case they turn a little 'glassy', particularly in the treble. They are fine on smaller speakers (Maggie 1.6, Vienna Baby grands), but run out of steam quickly on larger ones (Maggie 3.6, Vienna Mahlers) even on very moderate 'forte' of a chamber music piece.
501 monos -- No problem with power and authority here. . . no chance of them clipping and sounding glassy, even on difficult loads like the Vienna Mahlers. On the other hand, 501 may not yield the ultimate harmonic texture, nor the ultimate low level nuance, as such it is fair to say that they do not always draw me into the music.
302 stereo (withdrawn) -- same power/authority as the 501, but with grace and refinement in low level harmonic texture, giving the impression of an extended and musical treble. With this amp I also noticed a great deal of micro dynamics, which yield very musical string vibratos, even on pianissimo. Where this amp did not quite shine was paradoxically in macro dynamics, which IMO did not sound quite as extended as the 501, giving me an overall impression of 'politeness'. It draws me into the music somewhat, but does not quite excite me.
312 Stereo (current model) -- All the positive traits of the older 302, but with excellent macro dynamics and transient response, which make for me this amp both musically subtle, involving, and exciting to listen to. 312 is one of my very preferred amps, regardless of underlying technology. I have written a short article on the 312 for issue 188 (December 2008) of The Absolute Sound. It is a sidebar in the Vienna Mahler speakers review. . . I believe on page 88.
Hope this helps, G. |
Kijanki, I have seen JRDG 102 but have never heard it. I only know that Jeff R. does like its sound a lot and is very proud of what the little critter can do for living (smiles!)
Unfortunately, I have not heard the Bel canto S300 either. . . what I can tell you is that at 475 hours of break in, Bel Canto Ref 1000 Mk.2 sounds too me very very sweet indeed while having magnificent staging and imaging. Today I listened to a CD of piano/violin/cello trios by my usual favorite author (Antonin Dvorak). The violin was somewhat to the right and closer to the backwall of the venue with all the soft phase interplay of an instrument in that position. The cello came from the very front of the stage and somewhat to the left with a clear, crisp and sweet sound. The piano sounded like a large Beckstein grand, powerful and dark and a little romantic. The performance sounded emotional while the virtual image was transparent, the instruments finely separated with a real sense of 'air' and venue around them. Should I call this perhaps an overall sense of involving musical crispness, with a subtle hint of warmth? Guido |
Nospam, by looking at:
www.seymourav.com/amps.asp
I see there are a couple of different models of ICE based amps made by Seymour. Which one did you try out? G. |
Mapman, unfortunately, unlike with Concerto, JRDG has not yet made an amp-only of the Continuum series. There exists the 312, which is a more complex amp only, based on the same ASP1000, and the 501 monos, which contain the same boards in the Continuum 500, minus the PFC circuit, minus the additional network of bulk capacitors, minus the Capri linestage boards.
501 monos + a pair of PC1 PFC devices should yield a sound similar to the Continuum if perhaps with slightly less authority, but perhaps with even greater channel separation. Bear in mind that C500's PFC circuit is a single 1500w device, while PC1 is a 750W device, hence you need 2 of them for the 501s.
Hope this helps, G. |
Apologies Mural. . . I do not know where is the 'attached digital' power supply and to what device you are referring. |
You are correct Dave, it is also worth pointing out that a decision to deploy a switching power supply vs a toroidal one, at least in the rarified high end domain we are dealing with, has precious little to do with skimping on parts costs. While some engineers prefer to mate switching power conversion modules with traditional toroidal power supplies, other designers prefer the sound of their creations when matching ICEpower modules with switching supplies, integrated or otherwise. There are many perfectly valid ways to skin this particular audiophilic cat, and it is completely pointless to launch yet a new round of the trite juvenile game of "my PS's bigger'n yourn!" G. |
Coffeey, why don't you call Wired For Sound and let us all know. G. |
