5% is a bit harsh , i would give the very best 45% of the real deal and figure on that system using at least 2-3 kw of power to get to that 45% figure... |
Irvrobinson, blind listening test while fastidious are only valid and relevant to the small group(s) participating..
The Subjective nature of Audio is well ............. |
Hello Byron ,
Great response and agree with a lot of it ..
Personally , i have been around SOTA type systems for the better part of 35 yrs and have yet to hear one that would be mistaken for real.
I will fully agree the recorded medium is a big part. Those who use direct recorded RR tapes for playback , get the closest IMO. I was first exposed to such in 1979 by Mark Levinson and his HQD system. Those Demonstrations were done using Peter McGrath's personal demo tapes.
It was astonishing then as it is now for those doing the RR thing again today....
Best of Hi-FI IMO, yes very much so.. But still a Memorex moment... |
Timlub ,
Franky has an Holodeck, you will never match his soundstage
:):):)::) |
Bjesien wrote :
I don't think playback can be the same for any two individuals. Sure we can agree on a set of principles, or try to talk about what is real, but we can never trade our very slight preferences if it is real to us....
Weseixas:
Bravo , bravo ... An Audio truism, if there ever was one.. |
Live musician in my House?
Yes, my daughter plays, my friends play and teach music. A mini grand being played in your house cannot be matched by an hi-fi system, IMO not even close.
There are many errors in playback (HI-FI) reproduction, the ones with the least amount of errors tend to get the highest marks, but it is nothing like live music. |
I would have to disagree frank ......
Both would take considerable power, of course it's academic the less efficient would require more, but both would require such to sound alive.
Please don't mistake ear splitting SPL to be what is being discussed here. To sound "alive" does require a certain size and power, effortless power, completely different to ear splitting SPL Din, the system has to "grow" exponentially from top to bottom with a lot of percussive energy... |
Mapman ,
The ohm's will not come close to reproducing the size or power of a grand being played in your house. A very good hi-fi system can sound like a piano, but will never fool you into believing it is a real piano, the size and power would never be the same.. |
Hello frank,
You should deduct the 6db drop for every 1M from the speaker, since typical listening distance is about 3M that means your 96db would translate to 84db at the listening position with 1 watt, it would take a lot more than 120/ch to reach your goal of 117db and typically you want to have a min of 5 times above the required rms power, sometimes more due to phase shift.
It takes a lot more than what most think to reproduce the percussive energy of live sound (live instruments, not pa band sound) a min of 1K watt and up IMO if you are serious about it. It's not going to happen with 120/ch...
Regards,
|
Hello Shadorne,
I'm not using "ear splitting" as a pejorative and I have heard the studio "monitors" listed and have designed a few myself in the past, sometimes to replace, sometimes to assist those listed, so i'm aware of "loud and clean" and any system producing a continuous Din of over 117 db is ear splitting to me and i will no longer expose myself to such.
A few of those studios would record SPL's in the 138 dB + range(some could shake the console) I can bet a lot of those guys probably don't hear much today... :)
Live instrument grow with a size and power that is unique to there reproduction, to reproduce this growth will require power, lots of it and most if not all speakers will benefit from this power reserve.
Regards, |
Hello Atmasphere,
I was referring to "Din" not peak db when describing ear splitting. If you are using the typical listening distance of 3M it would require 156 watts to do 110 db, very plausible you are able to do so with 140 watts when factoring headroom.
regards,
|
Hello frank ,
you stated 117 and 96 , those numbers are completely different from Atmasphere's. |
Hello Frank,
Atmasphere is not going well over 110db and you stated 117 db, the power increase to do so would exceed his setup substantially. Also i did state the correct drop with increase in distance, you had left out such in your original calculations, so I'm not sure what you are alluding to when correcting your calculations.
In order to achieve realistic percussive energy and size of live music will require a minimum of 10 to as high as 20 times your RMS output to even come close to the dynamic pulls associated with live symphony music or the sound of a grand piano in the room example as previously discussed.
No Sota system can even be thought of with only 120w/ch IMO, lots of speaker radiating area and Power would be a necessity, to say the very least. |
Ohhh, sorry guys , almost forgot, you also need a big listening room, you won't be fooling anyone in a small listening space.
THE ROOM IS UBER IMPORTANT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Hello Pubul57,
Your speaker would be the limiting factor in producing the sound we are alluding to, that aside i do believe your system would benefit tremendously from an increase in power...
Maybe one day Ralph will allow you an in home demo of a pr of MA3, just before he delivers them to the Prince of Persia, you will for sure hear the difference between a "likkle" one and an Atmasphere Big 'un...
:)
Regards, |
Hello Timlub,
Yes that is correct...
regards, |
Mapman,
taken in that context, all hi-fi is distortion and I'm sure we can all agree that when the reproduced signal is different from the original the effect is distortion.
What Frank has stated is that we hear differences in the sound due to an increase or decrease in "distortion" and if there is no distortion change then both systems will sound the same
What we are trying to determine "which distortion" , tim, thd, phase, slew, VCID, maybe Frank is describing the changes in the RLC makeup when switching out wire for eg. changing the original "distortion".
Regards, |
Hello Atmasphere,
Wouldn't such be dependent on the topology being used, Tubes react differently vs SS with regards to negative feedback
(local or global).
Class-D amps run a lot of feedback, "alot" and they don't have issues with sound staging and details, actually they are quite possibly kings of it, but do exhibit a grainy artificial sound IMO vs conventional amplifiers (class-a, a/ab)
|
I'm in agreement with Irv, there are a lot of speakers with unbalanced frequency bandwidth. SS amps IMO tend to be more accurate in their reproduction of the original signal, have better bandwidth, dynamics, rhythm and pace.
That aside i have heard great sound from both SS and Tubes, so go figure.
|
How close are we to the real thing ? |
Hello Atmasphere,
Are you involved in making your own recordings.....
|
Agree and not just about Irv's response to Atmasphere , but for everyone in general no need to make it personal when in disagreement.
That aside It must be said Ralph did peg SS a bit in his response before pulling out the encyclopedia and totally forgot to mention Tube fog and distortion ..... :) :) :) |
Better yet , how many KT88's would one need for 500 watts necessary for the real thing ?
....... |
Waryn,
Ever Heard of the practice of medicine .. yes they are still in the dark there 2 my friend...
Regards, |
Frank ,
I hope Kirkus have you figured out, this way at least one of us can follow along ... :) :) |
|
Frank ,
The time smearing can be significant, this is what Atmasphere was alluding to, I do believe this is so if one get's carried away with NFB. Most SS designers today understand such and dont drink from the NFB pond in excess. The only way to eliminate it's usage is to design amplifiers which are very stable( matching transistors goes along way here) I do Believe Nelson Pass has made an even bigger step and acquired some pretty interesting devices, so we will see.
Tube amplifiers also use less NFB than there SS counterparts, so if NFB is really,really, bad then.....:):)
IMO output stage Bias is also very important in creating "that sound" associated with SS amps, how you balance the 2 ( Bias amt/NFB) when attempting to reduce distortion gives the amp that certain SS "character".
Regards, |
