"Are we making progress and how close are we?"
I doubt it.
What you hear from a particular recording on your rig in your room is distinct in almost every way from what you hear at any particular live performance in a particular venue.
I question whether the absolute sound possible today is really that much better than what was achievable years ago. It is more readily available in more different configurations to more these days I would say and probably for significantly lower cost than prior if done right, so there has been progress in terms of delivering good sound to more, assuming one is interested in that. |
I agree with Atmasphere on this one.
The barrier is/has not been the technology, more the technique applied in making recordings.
The best ones can be eerily close to lifelike in the right situation and it has been that way for quite a while, probably as far back as the golden age of vinyl. |
Petrayer,
Coincidentally, the Meyerhoff in Baltimore is one of the venues I have used extensively as a sound quality reference over the years.
You, know the sound quality there as with most venues varies considerably depending on how teh performers set up and where you sit?
Most classical performances tehre from most seats have some of the best sound quality I have heard IMHO.
however, once I heard Steve Winwood there from way up in the top level, slightly right of center and I could not have been more disappointed.
I used to feel very good about my system when I came home from the Meyerhoff and compared to my rig running magnepan mg1cs at the time, in every sense save absolute dynamics and impact perhaps. If I closed my eyes, it cam way better than 5% I would say, enough so that I did not care.
Nowadays, with my newer OHM floorstanders, I think I have upped the ante considerably.
I also run good monitors and they are nice but I have yet to hear a pair of standalone monitors deliver large scale classical convincingly. Chamber music and the like, perhaps... |
Peter,
Recorded music in most people's homes and live music in a large well designed concert hall are two different beasts that will never be the same. I think realizing this helps manage expectations when experiencing either. Each can have its unique charms that endear themselves. Sometimes it is possible for the two different things to strongly resemble each other.
I think if an experienced listener is satisfied with both on their own terms and in relation to each other, then that is about as good as it can get.
I think I've arrived at that point in the last year or so finally, so I am a very content listener at present. |
I agree cone area in addition to overall driver quality and build, optimal power delivery, and ability to pressurize air as a result is key to getting dynamics out of a playback system that can compete with the original instrument(s) in a similar room configuration.
This is one of the reasons I am a big fan of Walsh drivers. Drivers applied using the Walsh principles where sound is emitted from the rear of teh cone omnidirectionally benefit from effective application of available driver surface area, and the omnidirectional aspect results is a sound dispersion pattern more like that of a real, un-amplified, acoustic instrument. To get similar results with conventional driver technology generally require much larger designs and drivers that bump up the cost to deliver substantially. |
Agree in general with Timlub. |
'Isn't it amazing though; just how much a great system can fool you into thinking it can reproduce the sound of a piano, until you actually have one in the room? Then, you're right, not even close."
I wonder if a properly miked recording played over a good pair of omni speakers would push the edge for this?
I think it might in that the sound dispersion pattern of the omnis in the room would be more like that of the piano.
BTW, does anybody with a nice piano in their house do wall treatments the way some audiphiles do to keep the room from mucking with the sound? |
I'll go out on a limb and say I think my system is up to the task about as well as anything I have heard in a home system.
Anybody have a grand piano I can borrow to check for sure?
I feel about as good about it as I can having heard a lot of pianos over the years but not actually owning one currently to compare. |
"I completely agree that the wink link is the recording. Good Listening, Tim"
The recording being the weak link is where a good audiphile wants to be. That is one thing that is not in his/her control. |
Shadorne,
Honestly, I've never measured SPL on a system. I take note of documented reference levels for common things like rock concerts, etc. With my current amps and OHM F5s, I have yet to push the volume to any level where distortion or clipping is heard because it is beyond any level that I care to listen at, and I do listen quite loud on occasion, close to rock concert levels I would estimate. You can't tell how loud it really is though until you try to talk and can't hear a thing.
Then again, my rooms is not big enough to accomodate a grand piano playing at its max either. So I'm going to wimp out and say my venue is my limiting factor for all practical purposes. |
"You will be surprised that tremendous SPL is not "ear splitting" when it is clean, undistorted and dynamic."
I have invested a lot of time, effort and money addressing these aspects of good sound in my home system.
My conclusion is that it can be practically achieved but is not likely to happen by chance and does not come cheap. |
Its true that by definition a reproduced signal that is not exactly identical to the original source (ie exactly the same as the real thing) is distorted and that the reason no two systems deliver the exact same sound is because each distorts the input signal differently.
So not all distortion is necessarily unpleasant. In fact some may be enticingly pleasant! Others will induce different responses, both positive and negative. |
I also tend to believe that practically, in most well thought out real world setups, that a higher % of those using SS amps will sound closer to the real thing to me.
I say this based on the fact that I hear more variations from what sounds rel to me more with tube gear I hear and use than with (good) SS rigs. |
Well, the whole negative feedback issue has been beaten to death pretty thoroughly already in other threads.
My conclusion is that it is just one of many design and execution factors that affect results depending on how well it is executed.
Having heard a lot of gear over the years, my ears tell me that good engineers working for companies making good products have a much better handle on all such things that matter these days than they did 30 years ago. |
I try to keep in mind that with recordings, the recording itself and how it was produced is the real thing that matters.
Remember recordings are reproductions. They can approach the real thing but probably never completely equal it. I've heard some come close enough, at least in my listening environment, that I do not care.
Most often, recordings are abstract reproductions conceived by its creators that bear little resemblance to the real thing, assuming it is even possible to ever experience that. |
Human ears (and brains)are complex sensors and information processors of an order far exceeding science or technologies ability to model exactly.
Given this truth, any hypothesis regarding being able to accurately predict the outcome of an individual's listening experience based on science alone, even in a properly executed scientific experiment or series or experiments, has to come into question. |
My head is going to burst..... |
Regarding sound, at least the frequencies that humans can hear, anything is possible today with enough knowledge, focus and a budget. |
Regarding live sound, the hardest part to reproduce at home is the venue. No two venues are exactly the same, public or at home. So you are always working with that handicap. Otherwise, it is not so hard to get very lifelike sound out of recordings designed to sound that way.
Getting the exact perfect sound that you like all the time is not possible unless you are also making your own recordings.
Its like Hanna Davis and Kate Upton. Or ever see Ronda Rousey out on a photo shoot versus prepping for a fight? WHich is the most perfect? |
