Trelja,
I must respectfully disagree with your 2A3/300b comparison, it just restatting the usual stereotypes(bass performance varies widely among 300b tubes and individual amps) Both are fine DHT tubes, one is`nt inherently better, Far too many choices of 300b(wide ranging quality) to neatly apply general characteristics. It you prefer the 2A3 no problem,it`s all subjective, I prefer the 300b. A high quality 300b amplifier SET or PP will drive the Horning wonderfully, as would a high quality 2A3(PP),211,845 etc.
The fact that Dpe is curious about other amps(who is`nt from time to time) does`nt mean he`s disatisfied with his current 300b amp(which he clearly indicates he is`nt).
IMO he should try other amps, he may find better or just different, maybe realize that his current set-up is best afterall, who knows.
Best Regards, |
Charles1dad, I would say if Dpe's results were truly excellent, this thread would not exist.
Holding the variables you mentioned constant, the 2A3 tube will most definitely eclipse the 300B in terms of low end response and impact.
Taking the Lowther route, Isochronism's Beauhorn Virtuosos would be a better match for a 300B amplifier than the Hornings. Not to say that a 300B amplifier won't drive the Hornings, it most certainly will. But neither are you going to get to hear all of the speaker you paid for.
Dpe, yes, I did hear the Deja Vu push-pull 2A3 amplifier with Horning loudspeakers. I recently had that combination in my second system for a couple of months. Though I told my buddy (a fellow Audiogoner) who lent it to me to never sell it, I'd say if you are interested, he'd be willing to talk. It was the best amp I've thus far mated to my Hornings. Not sure where you are located, but if you're within driving distance of Philadelphia, most likely we can put the combination back together for you to come and give a listen to.
When I say crazy volumes, I mean 110 - 120 dB with both ease and requisite slam. My only complaint, you pay for some of that bass the solid state rectification yields by sacrificing a bit of tube rectification sweetness and romance.
Being a push-pull amp, as opposed to SET, its output was closer to 15 watts than 5. The much underrated 2A3 used in this configuration will sound a lot more like the typical 30 - 35 watt per channel tube amp, and the seat of the pants feel of the Deja Vu with the three loudspeakers I used it with was actually more than my Dynaco ST70, with some seriously meaty low end. 2A3 (2 - 5 wpc) SET amps will never come anywhere close in terms of power or extension. |
Actually Charles1dad you were correct, Horning did once make a 300b (Taj Mahal) and an 845 (Emperor). The Sati 520b appears to be the only amp he's producing now. From the posts on this tread only Latinsamba1 has heard the 520b. It would be interesting to hunt down Horning's previous incarnations, but I don't think you're likely to find many in the US. I haven't owned an integrated amp in years. With the exception of the external power supply, it would free up a lot of rack real estate. At least you know what this integrated amp was voiced with.
Trelja, did you hear a Deja Vu 2A3 Horning combination? Led Zeppelin on 5 watts, that's impressive.
Johnk, it's always a pleasure to hear from you and thanks for the recommendation by the way. I'm well aware that you're a big fan of both those amps. I previously had a pair of your speakers. I seriously miss the sound of the Seas Exotic W8 in your cabinets. I will eventually pick up another pair of single drivers speakers. I loved the soft enveloping sound of SEAS in your cabinets. I also think it was you who planted the seed in my head regarding the Mastersound 845 or 300b monos.
As 845s go, I would love to find a rare pair of Komuro 845. One of my A-gon friends once owned and raved about this amp. He's probably shaking his head now over this discussion. I blame my curiosity and yearning on him. ;-) |
The Sati I heard in Jeff's loft was modified to use the monster Emission Labs 320B XLS. I believe the output was 20 watts. |
Correction,
The Horning amp is`nt 300b based but my point remains the same.The overall quality of the amp matters more than the specific output tube and stated power ratings don`t tell the entire story. |
Trelja,
Dpe has already stated twice that he gets excellent results with his Thoress 300b, When it comes to 300b amplifiers there`s quite a range in terms of ultimate performance. Some have 'much' better transformers, stiffer power supplies and part quality than others.
Also much of the grunt/drive factor is influenced by the choice of driver tube. there are many variables that seperate 300b amps from average to outstanding.
To generalize is very in accurate.
Horning makes his own 300b amp, he must find them quite capable I`d assume. Some 300b amps would just be okay and there are others that would drive these Hornings to hell and back.
Best Regards, |
Believe it or not, these speakers do well with some power. Or, at least, a lower power amp with some bottom end. Well, maybe it's not surprising, given the amount of woofer cone they have. The wrong amp will really show poorly, far worse than with a lot of loudspeakers, and the end result will be thin and harsh.
That being case, I don't recommend 300B amplifiers, not enough grunt. Try something else, and you'll likely wonder at how much music you were missing.
My Atma Sphere M60 and a friend's Transcendents were a terribly poor match. I haven't worked it all out, but OTLs work great with front loaded horns, but seemingly not at all with back loaded horns.
I get very nice results with my Dynaco ST70 and an el cheapo Chinese 6AS7G push-pull integrated. So far, the best I've heard has been the Deja Vu push-pull 2A3. That amp kept me and my non-audiophile headbanging buddy happy spinning things like Led Zeppelin or Kraftwerk at crazy volumes. Most surprising to me, my Jadis DA60 mates exceptionally well with them. |
I use Art Audio Jota monos (Emission Labs 520 output tubes) to drive my Eufrodite Ultimate Zigmas, as I did on Agathon Ultimates before them, both have been great matches... I think the speakers see about 24 watts output maximum, but I've never gotten close to maximum gain on my preamp.
I think the extra power might just be giving these speakers a little extra jump, but couldn't swear to it, as I've certainly heard them both sound spectacularly good with less power- both at Jeff's loft and at several of his show set-ups.
Hope this helps.
Kevin |
Viva and mastersound make SET able to drive your loudspeakers load. |
Dpe,
Audio Note Kits has a 20w Push Pull 300b Interstage Mono Amp as well. All of the products on the AN Kits site were built by Pete Fulton. If you don't have the time for your own build, give him a shout he can be found here http://www.digitalpete.net/. He is knowledgable and reasonable too.
Good Luck |
Charles1dad,
Yes you're probably right regarding the 45/2a3. I also have a huge room, but I listen mostly to acoustical music. It still would be fun to try a 45.
It's not exactly like I'm looking for something better, just different. I like a slightly warmer breathy midrange sound that you occasionally hear in a 45 and some 300bs. I wouldn't be selling the Thoress. It's here to stay.
As I mentioned in my original post, some people think the Hornings sound much better with more watts. I'm not sure how much is more, but 18 to 24 would be sufficient for me. The 845 is a good suggestion as well as a 211. If I had the spare change that Tron Telstar would be it. |
I've heard the Eufrodites in Jeff's loft driven by both Tron and Horning amps. The new Sati integrated (he used a Tron phono stage) is simply awe inspiring. |
Dpe, I am currently in a small apartment with 105db speakers. |
Dpe,
A 45 or 2A3 SET amp might be a bit of a stretch with your speakers, depends on room size, music volume etc.
I believe a good quality 845 amp would work very well with your Hornigs, just not sure if necessarily "better" than what you currently have. |
Yes I know,I have the Tron Syren.I cant afford Tron amps but the deHavilland's work very well.
If you get to the north east your invited for a listen.
I have thought about a 300B amp but always opted to keep my 845G.Maybe we should switch electronics.
Enjoy your music |
It's hard not to get caught up in the Joule-Merlin synergy when hear them at a show. Same goes for the Horning-Tron synergy...not so for the deHavilland-Sonist combo, but that's just my opinion.
I live in the SF Bay Area. |
I guess you may have gotten caught up with the Joule-Merlin
synergy that so many posters and reviewers write about.I'm sure that combo sounded great but I am a big fan of deHavilland 845 amps.
If you are finding joy with the 8 watts from your 300b's I wouldn't try a 2a3 or 45 amp.Your speakers are 96db and may need the higher wattage.Your Thoress amp and pre are special components when mated together.
Where are you located ?? |
Thanks Rodge827 for the suggestion. I should start building my own amps. Unfortunately I have too many hobbies as it is, maybe in a couple of years if and when I can afford to retire.
Goldeneraguy, I borrowed the 845-G SE's some time ago and I thought they were wonderful with my Merlins, although I bought a Joule instead. It would be interesting to hear what the 845s do for the Hornings. I have Thoress preamp thats the best audio component I've purchased in a long time. It's what led me to picking up the Thoress amp as well.
Charles1dad, true the 300b is hard to beat but I've never owned a 2a3 or 45. Can the Hornings handle 4 watts? I've heard that the Hornings sound better with more watts than even my 8 watter. And of course there's the sound preference. I love the sound of a 45 tube and I've been seriously contemplating a Deja Vu 45/2A3 (another Audiogon-er put this amp in my head when I owned my previous efficient speakers). As for the Berning ZH270, I've had this amp for almost 10 years. In those 10 years it hasn't seen a lot of action. I also owned a Joule VZN-80, which I far more preferred. The reason why I've never sold the Berning is its just a friggin' 10lb amp! I can bring it with me when I go listen to someone else's stuff. If youre interested, it's going on the market soon. |
BTW, Wavelength ridden here |
I agree with C1d. I am also a fellow 300B devote (&45). Either of my amp pairs exhaust through lowly Lowther DX4's, (Beauhorn Virtuoso) no back-up singers required, here. Many interesting combinations available on the SET/Hi Eff theme. |
You already love the speaker with your Thoress 300b, this match may prove hard to beat. Your comment on the ZH270 is unique given it`s universal praise and top reviews. |
I love my deHavilland Aries 845 mono's with the Aristoteles.
It took a long while for the speakers to break in and during
the process I wondered if the amps were not a good match.
After about 7-8 months the MAGIC happened.
Which preamp are you using with your Thoress 300B ?? |
I'm not sure of your budget, but I have heard the Audio Note Kits 300b Interstage Mono Blocks SET version with many upgrades. I'm lucky to have a friend who has a pair of these on Carfrae Little Big Horns (6moons road tour exit 1). Absolute best sound that I have ever heard! Check them out on the AN Kits site. |
