Especially when the differences are slight. Even if you’re one who thinks this is all BS, think of it this way. Imagine there is a difference. But not "a" difference, but a whole range of differences. Because there is. So there is a range of changes when cables are moved around. I think you are right...My audio system is good, now really good, but I bet that the one you owns and which I can see and imagine, with the 3 embeddings taken care of, is better than mine ...Each system has his own peak limit of resolution...Many people dont have the resolution necessary with their system to bother about cables impact because they cannot even hear it in their system... I am happy with what I have but I am not so fool to think that my audio system is the best... :) But I listen music et dont care to the same degree than yesterday with the sound...This is the sign that a system is satisfying... My friendly salutations... |
geoffkaitI know you are often right...This is the differences between me and some others about your sayings... :) Remember that I dont pretend my audio system is absolutely optimal, but that it converge asymptotically to this peak yes I know it... Is there other fields than the mechanical one, the acoustical one, and the electrical one ? Yes there is... Belief in ones own handiwork is a very powerful antidote to getting the best sound possible.
I quote one of your best observation to date for me...This quote I makes mine deserve to be a classical one...My goal is the best musical experience possible and comes a times when I forget about the best sound...I am in this time or near it indeed... I listen more than I study now I confess... :) And to makes thing worst I am very proud of my homemade low cost solutions effectivity... :) For the Helmholtz resonators, I know what you speak about, i had to do several tests...For the wires you are right, but actually it is impossible in my space to do better... The end is near , the base camp is under my eyes, the summit over my head for sure...But compared to most at least I had taken the journey... :) " Why are you mute? Because I have choosen to believe my ears" - Grumman Marx My friendly salutations... |
uberwaltzYour description made me rethink about my room... :) Perhaps mine was not so bad from the start.... :) One thing is certain Any room can sound good, not perfect, but good yes... It takes acoustical non conventional methods and conventional one... It takes the ears to guide you step by step... One at a time...Without my non conventional methods my room will not be so good now tough... And congratulations for the most difficult room to treat contest and new thread to comes.... By the way with my 6 inches bass drivers Mission speakers, in my treated room, i had so much good bass that I connect my Kreisel subs one hour before disconnecting it without using it anymore....I dont miss 20 or 30 hertz vibrations so much...40 hertz is enough for clavichord and for almost all organ notes ….Without my non conventional acoustical room treatment at the times i have bought this Kreisel subs with excitation... But it is very difficult to adjust subs with speakers also in a rightful manner to gives homogeneous and clear mid frequencies, but we all love rumbles, the reason why I bought the Kreisel at the times :) Good and powerful room treatment sometimes eliminate the need for a sub... This was my case....And in my experience, cleaning the electrical grid of the house "makes room" for the acoustical optimal treatment of the room... All three embeddings are linked together... :) My friendly salutations... By the way millercarbon has one of the most good looking audio system I have seen here and with good sound I bet...I am a bit envious :) ...Hopefully my sound is amazing also, if not, I would kill myself after looking at it... I like the way cables are cleanly guided to the gear particularly...I cannot use this method here tough...All my cables are separated but on a wall near each other without touching ... My friendly salutations... |
I will add the famous citation that resume all:
" The ears command, you obey" Groucho Marx
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mijostynIt is difficult to have a bad room like mine... 2 windows, small room of 14 feet by 14 feet by ten with one speakers in a corner, all electronics at near one feet of the speakers ( few inches for one).... My point is precisely that non-conventional methods to modify the acoustic are very useful, not only gluing on the walls so called acoustic material...My room is not perfect now, but sound great for all ears to listen... But without my 20 Helmholtz resonators, without my 50 "singing" reflectors and resonators, without my 8 heavily modified Schumann Generators, and without my homemade acoustic materials, not so much, I forget my stones grid and my modified speakers :) Then if my room can sound good, any room can sound good....That is my experience....But being good does not equate with the " state of the art " room or theater conceived by the best acoustic engineers in the world, is it necessary to say so? And cleaning the electrical grid of a room and house is not straightforward, if you are not electrician and if you had no money to implement that.... But it is possible I made it... The more easy to treat at low costs are the mechanical resonance-vibrations problem... The test is that in this treated room I can listen to the lived atmosphere of a recording in an immersive way in 2 listening positions, with natural instrumental timbre... Not bad for a 500 hundred dollars system in a bad room... with 500 hundred dollars tweaks :) My best to you …. |
mijostynThank you mahgister. I have the picture. Yes, these are all important considerations that need to be addressed for the best performance but neither are they a mystery or all that difficult to deal with. When I start my audiophile journey from zero component, 7 years ago, this was a "mystery" indeed, because nobody talk about these 3 embeddings for what they are really: the ONLY key to transform your electronic components into their real peak potential... Almost all were speaking about the qualities of the electronic component of their choice... Most reviewers reviews, they dont say: never mind the components, look for a good one and after that, the really only important thing is to resolve the triple embeddings equation...Nobody has ever said that to me... Sometimes marginally, this one speaks about vibrations to sell you something... Sometimes those others will advise about the necessity to treat the room but in only one way road, with only conventional means and materials that’s all...And those who will advise you about the electrical noise floor, will never confront all the extensive problem in itself, they wanted to sell you an out of the box solutions ( in general costly)… This is the "mystery" part of my answer to you, because I know and you know, if you read forums, that most people believe that buying ready made solutions solve these 3 problems... It may be true in some case, but only at a cost that was very, very, high indeed...Like the "virtual section" of audiogon reveal with systems and dedicated room at 100,000 dollars and higher... The other part of my answer is your affirmation that it is not to difficult to deal with... :) It is not so difficult for sure, but it takes me 2 years to figure out by myself this puzzles, and the difficulty was not the figuring "per se" but the implementation at a very low cost... Most people, me included, dont have this kind of money...The difficult part is with no money is it possible? In my thread I explain why it is possible and how... Point to me an article in audio where someone address the 3 embeddings problems with explicit solutions at low cost and effective enough to transform any audio system in a top peak audiophile one? I will wait... :) This is the mystery part, it seems that there is nowhere a triple low cost solutions to this triple embeddings equation... In audio the truth is, most of the times, it is not important the brand name you owned, it is the embedding of the gear that is important...All relatively good amplifiers are equals, never mind their difference, if they are located in one rung of the scale: low, mid, high... The implementation and installation of a dac or amplifier, or speakers, in the triple embeddings will makes them able to go one rung over their original one and in some case more if rightly done.... The difficult part is : at which cost in dollars? My triple solutions cost nothing or very low cost and are almost all homemade...See my thread and virtual system page...And dont be fooled by the mere appearance of my "cheap" system, solutions, and room...My sound is more than good, I can listen the particular atmospherical resonance of any room, theater, or stadium where the files were recording...Cost 500 dollars for the electronic components...The same amountfor the triple solutions to the triple embeddings... My best... |
Wow! Lots of generalizations in that post. Why, if I didn’t know better I’d think you were channeling the dude from Stereo Review who famously opined all amplifiers that measure the same sound pretty much the same. Also, I’m pretty sure everyone and his brother have been aware of the electrical system issues and vibration issues ever since. Perhaps they didn’t realize how pernicious and extensive they are, I’ll grant you that. I never wanted or dreamed to say something so stupid that all amplifiers sound the same; but if they are on the same rung they are, nowithstanding their real differences in sound, in a relative equivalence compared to the upgrading powerful effect of a rightful implementation of the 3 embeddings...This was my point... And if you read me correctly,(but you sometimes loves too much makes a punch ), I never said that nobody knows about these 3 embeddings, I said NOBODY POINTED TO THEM SIMULTANEOUSLY in the same article like the KEY to audiophile experience, instead of the acknowledged quality of some superior electronic components... But thanks at the end to coming back to my point: Perhaps they didn’t realize how pernicious and extensive they are, I’ll grant you that. Thanks for your generosity...:) In exchange I will include you in the rare small group of people who knows and had known already that... :) I apologize for using the expression"nobody", I must have said "few"... You are right on that...But very few... For the other embeddings than these 3, I know there exist others , but I want to begins somewhere, in an evident locus for all... My best to you, like always... |
mijostynThe 3 embeddings of any audio system : 1-mechanical environment of the audio system (vibrations-resonance controls methods) 2-acoustical field of the room treatment with varied materials and resonators (Helmholtz one and others), reflectors, Schumann generators etc... 3- electrical grid of the room and of the house Rightly done these embeddings are the key to audiophile experience, not buying costly engineering gear "per se"... Any already good electronic components will be so much transformed by that triple embeddings controls that it will perform at a level of S.Q never known possible before... The audiophile marketting industry is not built on this truth, but my experience is a confirmation of this disturbing truth for some... |
mijostynI get your point and you are right for sure...Minor physical changes can affect astoundingly the perception of sound...Same experience here... But the changes affecting my system in the last 2 years were a cumulative increasing transformation in minors and not so minors improvement, one at a time, that culminate in a final S.Q. without any comparison with the original S.Q from the same electronic components... One of my great discovery is contrary to most audiophiles I know for sure that the relative quality of electronic components is not the first and most important factor in audio, but the controls in the triple embeddings, acoustical, mechanical and electrical, are... :) The rule is simple: Buy good electronic components and after that forget any upgrade, but look for the right controls of the 3 embeddings... And you will lived a peak audio experience on all counts even at a very low cost...This is my experience....And you will forget to upgrade for a very long time indeed even if you have the money... :) I apologize for repeating this mantra and i know that you know that already i think but no so much people know that....My best to you... "God smoke cigars and listen to music, why not? " -Groucho Marx " Harmonics of sitar cannot lie" - Ravi Shankar "Truth manifest itself musically " - myself |
I can explain that mahgister but I don’t think you will like the explanation. mijostynYour remark made me smile(in a friendly manner)... I know that placebo effect plays his function in all context...But Placebo effect cannot play in audio, like with the feeling body in a medical experiment, the exact same function when you add something to an inert piece of gear.....You can say that I delude myself at least it will be more exact...Hallucinations or misperceptions by auto programmation is not exactly placebo in a medical context, but it is what you want to say or what it is more exact to say for describing what you have in mind about my experience :) In the last 2 years my audio system, without changing any electronic essentials components, same dac, same amp, same speakers, is going from crap or disappointing sound quality, to top detailed 3-d imaging, in near listening or regular listening, with natural instrumental timbre, and a better dynamic, and a lived projected sound in the room, all that with my controlling methods of the 3 embeddings, it is in no way explainable by placebo sorry... I owned 8 pairs of headphone that I listened to before my tweakings because the sound was better, now it is the contrary, my speakers crush my headphones any one of them (Stax,Hifiman,2 AKG, Beyerdynamic, Q701, 2 Fostex)... If an audible effect is added in a "cumulative" way with each experiments one after the other, mutiple times explaining that with a placebo effect or misperceptions is saying nothing serious at all... Sorry.... A better example of placebo effect or programmed misperceptions, choose what term you wanted to, would be some guy that after purchasing a 10,000 dollars amplifier must convince himself that the differences with his 2000 dollars amplifier was very, very big, and not a little one.... In my experience any good electronic component will be transmuted on another level completely if it is rightly embedded in the mechanical, acoustical, and electrical grids of the house and room... ( without illusive placebo effect) Any electronic components at any price... :) Last remark: "my illusion" cost me total, 500 hundred dollars maximum and perhaps less, for my Mission speakers, Sansui AU 7700 amplifier, and Starting Point System NOS dac...My controls homemade methods cost me peanuts also... Then who lives in an illusory hi fi world? Me or the crowd who think that paying is warrenty of Hi-Fi without anything to think about or work with for that and with only ready made costly product out of the box? I will agree with any of your choice because I dont give a dam, listening music for the first time of my life in a good audio system created at no cost by me... My best to you from the heart and with no rancor at all... |
I totally agree...
Good night to you...
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Millercarbon, in my tweaks I added 3 Himalayan salt lamps, and their colors added something for sure that is pleasant to see...
But I really think that they also made a real enhancement of the sound, perhaps it is an illusion, in this precise case, yes, perhaps, because the effect is subtle but for me there...
But all my numerous tweaks one after another cannot be explained by placebos or increasing hallucinations...They worked way better than buying a new 2020 Krell amplifier to upgrade from my 1978 Sansui...And cost 50 dollars total for the 3 beautiful salt lamp...
The deluded one are those who thinks the electronic components are all there is about Hi-FI. I think and you think the contrary: the embeddings is all there is about Hi-Fi...
The deluded one, if there is someone deluded, are among those that must justify for themselves the too much high price they had pay sometimes for the experience of Hi-Fi; not among those who had pay much attention to the 3 embeddings of their electronic components, and less attention to the marketing of new electronic costly components...And certainly not those who bought 3 dollars tweaks liliputian herkimer diamonds... :)
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Audio is not what we think it is at all, engineers, audiophiles or whoever we are; audio is a complex activity combining many artefacts in an experience always new, implicating way more than one science, and some unknowns to discover and perhaps even more than we think at the end....
I just finished an experiment with liliputian Herkimer diamonds of .125 or .200 grams that produce a change comparable to costly cables... Nobody know why or can explain that... The experiments cost me 2 dollars...I smile when someone say that without very costly electronic components HI-FI experience is not possible....This is marketing engineering not audiophile experience... :)
"God has 2 ears but no oscilloscope" Groucho Marx
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What is a superior component?
There is 3 levels of price quality...
Any components in each rung of this level are almost equivalent, modulo some little differences...
For example the Zotl Berning amplifier is a superior electronic component compared to my Sansui AU 7700, on another rung than it, but I can assure you that the S.Q I create by controllings the 3 embeddings are so much, than my inferior electronic component is not too much backward in S.Q. not equal for sure but at his peak level the Sansui is very good but sound like ordinary in a non controlled embeddings...This Sansui is one of the best Sansui ever made tough...A Berning amplifier in a non treated embeddings will not soud at his peak level either...
I just want to say that when we speaks about "tweaks" people think most of the times about something that accompany marginally the efficiency of their audio system, a tweak being something that increase what is already there...
1-But is the controlled of the mechanical embeddings of an audio system,
2-The varied acoustical treatment of our room,
3-The cleaning of all the electrical grid of a house and of the gear itself,
rightly done and implemented,
are only some tweaks added to the Audio system for a slightly better audio experience?
Absolutely not at all...The methods pertaining to these 3 embeddings TRANSFORM COMPLETELY the audio system, at any price, and does not only increase slightly a S.Q already there by virtue of the electronic component quality by itself. No I will repeat it: it transform it completely. Perhaps there is exception to this rule, but most of the times this rule apply, and I dont know any exception myself...
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