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Holographic Soundstage ?

I would like to share my observation and hopefully get some input from people who have the same interest.

My system consist of Wharfedale Opus 3 , Krell KRC-3 preamp, Krell KSA 150 amp, Chord Qutest DAC and a computer with JCAT USB EX running Roon/with LPSU from HDPlex.
I mainly like holographic soundstage and would be able to achieve a very good 3D soundstaging with my current Krell setup.
I decided to try out tube amp a couple days ago because I read through the internet and everybody told me that tube amp always have better holographic soundstage and 3D imaging comparing to SS amp.
So I order a Raven Blackhawk MK3 from Raven audio with 45 days home trial just to try it out. I was expecting a very holographic soundstage that will blow my Krell out of the water.
Well, I was so WRONG. The Krell combo actually has a deeper and wider soundstage comparing to the Raven.
The Raven also has some very weak bass comparing to the Krell which is more punchy and tonally rich textured bass.
I cannot understand why it happens. I am always under the impression that tube amp will always provide more holographic soundstage. Obviously, In my set up the Krell is superior when it come to 3 dimensionality.

I will keeping trying out the Raven Blackhawk in the next couple of weeks and if things are not improved. I am ready to return the Raven and perhaps trying out the other tube amps (or solid state amps) that can beat the Krell combo.

If any one has some idea of such a product, please let me know. I am looking for an upgrade right now.

128x128viethluu

Showing 7 responses by mozartfan

mozartfan
2,143 posts
 
I always found imaging was more a function of the speakers


~~~~~~~~~~~~
WOW alot of posts up above i have yet to read. 
But anyway, I agree here, speakers is the actual voice to the other components. 
So the idea of 
~3D~
I interpret as 
Soundstage/width/depth, life like vocals. Muddy mids eliminated, not too *warm* which to me is distortion, likea  layering effect.
The Gold Lion KT88's were too warm in my amp = less soundstage, or if you wish ~3D effect~.
The term in the old days as coined by Philips ~High Fidelity~.
Tag it anyway you wish. 
I perfer the old standard termonolgy
~High Fidelity~
With the right speakers, all other components and the tewaks such as new  botique caps, resistors, wiring/cables , can work in their effects on total sound. 
If anyone says high end caps are just as good as low priced caps, is wrong. \
I've made this experiement and  can assure you, higher end caps, make a  nice nuance gain.
mozartfan
2,143 posts
 
Also know that that holographic sound quality is partly due to what's coming out of your source components.


~~~~~~~~~~
Well yes, I just added a  Philips 777 phono to my sources. Phono is superior to cds, but my classical collection is mostly cd releases. I am adding LP 's lately and can concur LP's do  possess a  ~3D~ which digital cds  lack, Not sure about the new high bit streaming, which i am not interested in. 
Source used will affect for better or worse...
Also most of my classical cds are not super high resoltion/studio engineered recordings, take this into account, But then also some jazz cds tend to lack that sparkle, such as Diana Krall, tend to be a bit rough in dynamics. 
I think the  1960's,  early 1970's recordings were best sound quality. 

In classical, some EMI and Philips recordings suffer from poor studio  recording. 


mozartfan
2,143 posts
 
Caveat:
The Seas midtweets are acceptable for light jazz, \
Not for complex jazz ensembles nor full orchestra. 
mozartfan
2,143 posts
 
I always found imaging was more a function of the speakers


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Supporting my thesis ~~The Speaker is the most critical component~~~
I just removed the fluffy white insulation that came with the Thor MTM kit, which Ricahrd Gray made the soldering connections back in 2004. It was packed TIGHt in the transmission cjambers throughout, Richard was only following the kit instructions. 
Huge error on Seas's kit instructions. 
The only insulation needed was a  1 inch thick 12 inch x 12 inch placed behind each W18. 
The bass now has exploded throughout the transmission  design. The speaker now exhibits more
~~3 dimension soundstage~~~
Proof speakers are everything in a  system. 
well thats a light exaggeration. 
Lets say 70%
The other 30% getting split up twix the amp, source, caps,  cables. 
Speakers are the main component,,all else are tweaks, nuances, support ,or worse = adding  distortion.

mozartfan
2,143 posts
 
millercarbon9,062 posts04-30-2021 12:47pmYour speakers at 91dB are not awful but are below my (admittedly totally arbitrary) cutoff of 92dB that anyone should consider before buying any speaker


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As you know i’ve also made this very same opinion all over audiogon these past weeks.
Sensitivity is everything ina speaker’s performance.
However, there are ~~The Exception To This Golden Rule~~

Seas has their Excel woofer line, rated 85-88 db sens.
Yes this  goes against my cutoff db sens at 92/93  as acceptable.
Due to the voicing in the lower midrange.
any woofer can make solid bass.
But very few can voice pure lower mids, in conjuction with solid low bass. .
Seas accomplishes this rare blend in their unique Excel line of woofers.
Now even Scanspeak has a woofer than can match.
Now as for upper mids/highs, here i am with you, 92db is the line in the sand for voicing this crucial fq range.
mozartfan
2,143 posts
 
Seas Excel dome tweets The Millennium and their new flagship Cresendo are rated 87db, Thats 5db too low. I'm sure the new Cresendo beats out the Millennium, but not enough to give a  cigar.
For voicing mids/highs witth a  ~~3 dimensional soundstage~~, only a  high sens FR  are designed for this task. 
I know Troels is suck on using midranges, 3 wyas, etc, but note his xovers....Massive and very complex = drivers are faulty.
A high quality FR  does not suffer these liabilities needed complex xovers.
We  must appreciate Troels excelent work supporting xover designs. But sad to say these things are dated.
The Seas Thor bass xover is simple
1 resistor, 1 cap, 1 coil.  Exception to the rule. 
You do not wanta  woofer witha  92db sensitivity, it would be too over whelming in the fabric of the soundstage. 
I am about to take  a  chance on swapping oit the lower W18E001 fora  W22 Graphene. Its a $900 gamble, bass might be too heavy in the overall soundstage. 
We are looking for a balance.
Yes I am aware my New Thor design witha  FA22RCZ at 94db + dual W18E001 @ 87db, might seem out of sync.
But remember its DUAL W18E001. Thats alot of bass for 1  channel.
The FA22RCZ's arrive tomorrow, I have a   test cabinet .
The 2 chinese FR a 4 and 5 inch arrive next week. 



mozartfan
2,143 posts
 
We have diverged far off the OP Q.
What makes 3D? 
If a  speaker has no potential for fidelity soundstage, it makes no difference what amp/source you use.
If its not there, it aint there.
Rake a  Jadis JA800, hook it up to B7W,, The Jadis will sound like a  B&W sound, which i can't stand. 
I'm searching for fidelity right now.
I am re-inventing the Seas Thors.
The seas FA22RCZ arrives late sunday.

Which will go between the dual W18's. 
The Millennium tweeter is history. 
This  tweeter has fidelity, but the sound stage on complex music is too small, = not 3D.
3D = hight, depth, width. With human vocals perfection. 
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