Theaudiotweak, all I really know is what I hear. I have not heard the Star Backstage but nothing I have heard surpasses the StillPoints, and I have tried many, many vibration solution, including the Halcyonics active systems, plus boxes full of brass footers of varying sizes. |
TOM, yes I understand Transduction is not as scientifically efficient and why.
I know that a manufacturer building a product needs efficiency for cost reasons. They must stop short of doing everything they could do for the same cost considerations.
Once I get the product home I like to play with it to see if I can get it to be more effective for my ears and my system. I often use less efficient methods but I like it more. If I like the sound of adding a transducer or 20, then I like the sound.
Scientific advances have continually improved my listening experience.
This was never more true than with Rick's amazing High Fidelity Products.
Listening and liking music for me is sometimes emotional, subjective and personal rather than reasonable.
Meanwhile, I am having fun and hope you are too. Dave |
What Tom said makes sense. I would be interested to hear what Rick Schultz himself has to say on the subject as he has been an advocate and end user of Sistrum products in the past.... |
Norm
You are describing a transducer, conversion of energy from one form to another. Not as efficient. Tom |
Theaudiotweak, I can understand that the mechanical impedance at the point of spikes, but what it would be with StillPoints Ultra Fives seems ill-defined. The base is 3 inches in diameter and the top is somewhat smaller. But the top ceramic ball would be very small and what vertical motion there would be there would be gone by the bottom of the ball pile would be gone. Also that on the bottom of the pile would be gone by the top. |
I never in my post dated 9/18 mentioned or inferred electrical impedance. The context stated was of mechanical impedance. Tom |
@Tbg , Alas my power Amp is balanced input only , so I will have to get them if I want an all CT1 system ......
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Audiolabyrinth, I am not counting on balanced, but would love to have them. Given the extra size needed for the single-ended ones, I hate to think of the size of the XLRs. I also hate to see the price increase for them.
I have had balanced cabling that did nothing and others such as the Exemplar silver Portals where the balanced were clearly better. Since both my BMC M2 amps and Exemplar XP-2 allow use of both balanced and single-ended, I will get to test this again. |
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@Audiolabrinth , I believe balanced early in the New Year -:) , I will have the 1st pair , you can have the 2nd -:) . |
@ TBG, Hi, That is grand that you have a personal relationship with Rick, Can you find out for me if he has balanced cables coming on the horizon?, thankyou TBg. |
Audiolabyrinth, me too. I had a long talk with Rick about the benefits of the StillPoints Ultra Fives that are really about converting vertical motion into heat, not really direct grounding. I really have no experience with the Star Back Stage technology, but I have much experience with the StillPoints.
Thanks for clarifying the situation. |
@ TBG, Oh no, You did not offend me, It appears we were talking about two different topics here, I am sorry for the confusion,I was refering to the post Theaaudiotweak posted 9-18-13, If I am not mistaken, His post read to me that resonance isolation and tunning changes the electrical impedances of cables and componets, I wanted to know how? |
Audiolabyrinth, I didn't mean to offend you. I don't believe I am talking about changing the electrical characteristics of the cable. I am talking about induced magnetic fields around cables carrying signals that can in turn affect the signal in adjacent cables. If you can dampen the shaking of cables you can reduce these induced signals. |
@ TBG, Hi, In other words, that would be impossible to change electrical characteristics within a cable or componet with resonance isolation or resonace tunning, the impedence of any given componet or cable is by design of the brand and model of a cable or componet, I have many years in the field of resonance tunning, In the 90s, I gave seminairs thru out half the u.s.a. in the field of resonance tunning. |
@ TBG, Hi, Believe it or not, I already know what you said in your post, I was asking how vibration resonance has anything to do with electrical impedences, thankyou TBg. |
I know Rick and company have spent years studying vibration control an was involved in a 3 year college project on the subject.
I am just a little fish that have enjoyed removing unwanted "noise" of any kind
from systems for over 3 decades.
Three things... Rick has heard my system and said he liked I have done so far...
Rick Suggested I try using STill Points on the WGPC...
Although Rick has years of experience with this, he is willing to listen to my humble suggestions and, i believe he would use them if he liked the outcome.
I believe resonance control thru herding vibration is great! I like a dash of damping in my system. The iso tables I use dissipate vibration coming from above and below the table (into heat). ALSO, I personally hate the sound of concrete vibration and isolate my system from it.
Anyway... I love to listen and to play with my system so I'm happy!!
Happier than I have ever been now I have High Fidelity products. (plug) ;-) |
vibration isolation is simply the attentuation of structural vibration, including that produced by Earth crust motion, wind, traffic, subways, etc. If it were as easy as coupling then everyone would throw away their 10K dollar isolation stands and the search for gravity waves would be concluded at last. It's the stuff with frequencies below 5 Hz that can have the highest energy and be the most difficult to ameliorate. |
Audiolabyrinth, I remember long, long ago when two audio friends in NY showed me the impact one of the routing of wires in a line stage and later of the benefits of two or more transformers in an ac filter being at right angles to each other. I guess any current flow has a magnetic field associated with it and that this field when it varies induces current flow within wires near it.
If the ac filter moves, there are induced signals within its circuit. If you can drain this vibration or absorb it by converting to heat, you don't alter the signal. |
@ TBG, Hi, Thats a very valid question I would like to know, I also would like to add, how would isolation products change the electrical impedence of a componet when isolation, resonance tunning has everything to do with vibrations emitted from sound? |
Theaudiotweak, what does "...not constrict this product's design path with the high impedance presented by isolation products," mean? I would think that StillPoints technology of converting vertical into horizontal motion would work better to keep motion from below out of the component. |
Direct coupling makes sense and the passage of resonant energy to ground via coupling makes sense. Harmonic tensioning and control are useful methods to collect and herd resonance in a predetermined direction out of a component.The end user should complete the exit strategy started in Rick's design and not constrict this product's design path with the high impedance presented by isolation products. Think wave guide in side and wave guide outside to mechanical ground. Tom. Star Sound Technology |
Tbg, Thanks, I love to hear your system. My system is not complete as I am borrowing integrated amp and speakers until mine are built.
I have not tried the still points ultra fives and wonder how they compare with
Finite Element cerabase. (I have at least 30 of those). I will be looking for some SP U5's to try.
For those crazy tweakers out there- I have found ways to damp, isolate and shield wave guides for a better sound (less noise, cleaner, more intimate, dynamic)
using a combination of wood, lead, clay, iso table, iso feet and aluminum foil
They must be off the floor and only wood (and air) touches the wave guides.
I will not have this perfected until I get my new amp and speakers but it sounds considerably better in my current system. |
Ddraudt, today I'm packing up the HF WGPC and taking it to Texas. Last night after listening again to it, I put back the Kemp Power Source on four StillPoints Ultra Fives. It had been on three. I know from much prior experience that four is far superior to three but is also a real pain as you need to adjust the one that is not in contact to be in contact. This is a very common occurrence. I also found that those under my line stage needed to be raise for contact. I think this had also be affecting the performance of the WGPC at the end as the line stage had be moved slightly by the heavy pc.
Frankly the Kemp sounded quite good with four Ultra Fives and with the line stage sitting properly on all four. I need to make sure on installing the WGPC in Texas to do it properly. Once I get this done, I will invite you over for a listening.
Nglazer, make sure that your Wave Guides are not on metal or anything other than in the air or on ceramics or touching each other. |
Thanks, friends. I will try them tonight in both locations, although pre to amp requires me to morph into Gumby. Will report when I have formed an opinion.
Appreciate the input (no pun intended).
Neal |
I would definitely try your source to preamp FIRST. That worked best for me, laying the foundation upon which the other cables built upon. |
Nglazer , I concur with Tbg , the biggest initial difference that I found was between cd player and line stage , so closer to the source seems to be the way to go , at least as starters . |
Tbg , I'm running an Audio Research Ref 150 power amp which is balanced input only , so no choice in that respect . I suspect that when the balanced version of the CT1 does become available that the result of being able to run the CT1's from source to speaker will be worth the wait -:) , also , I have been lead to believe that unless a component is fully balanced from input stage to output stage then there is no discernible advantage to running balanced or single ended over short runs , unless you consider the ease of changing cables -:) |
Tbg, glad to hear your impressions of the UR-WGPC. I believe we are fortunate to get to experience Ricks new gem.
your statement-" I sat in awe most of the remaining evening and hesitated to go to bed. " describes my experience of many nights this week. I am having to develop a new understanding of music reproduction and struggle to get my head around my systems current presentation.
I have 150 hrs on the box right now so I don't know how the break in will go but it is already to good to fathom. Way more than my all Ultimate cable system without "the box".
The WGPC box is designed with purposeful stress and tension to help pass vibration out of the box so cone feet should help.
I am experimenting replacing the metal stand with small isolation table and
Cerabase feet which use ceramic ball bearings as the touch point. In my system, they work better than all the many cones I have tried.
BUT.. In order for the vibration transfer to work effectively... I used screws to increase the stress between the waveguide stand and the bottom of the box.
The screws made it sound 6db louder.
If the preceding paragraph doesn't make sense, you may ignore or contact me for the longer explanation. |
Nglazer, I tried the dac to linestage first and linestage to amps second. I thought the line to amp made the biggest improvement.
For the first hour or two they will sound great, then they go south for a day, only to come back much better. After about three day, they will pretty much stabilize but will gradually improve. If you move them at all, it will take at least three hours for them to come back. Make sure you have them on fully and make sure the wave guides are not touching each other. A blow in card works fine to keep them separated. Don't treat the connectors with anything. They already are. |
I`d begin furthest upstream,DAC -preamp.Of course you have the opprotunity to try all locations and compare. |
When the fabled CT-1E's arrive tonight, where do you valued A'goners suggest I put them. (No, not there!) From PS Audio PWD MKII DAC to Wyetech Opal preamp (replacing Stealth Indra) or from pre to Krell 300cx amp (replacing JPS Aluminata), OR, from Sansui modded 919 vintage tuner to pre (replacing Nordost Valhalla)?
Some say from source, some say from pre to amp to encompass all sources. What say ye?
Neal |
I now have a WGPC Ultimate Reference, which now has about 14 hours on it. After about a half hour, I thought that it had the characteristic HF attributes, namely defined bass, sweet and extended top in, and great easy and clarity. I had four StillPoints Ultra Fives lying around. No, I don't just have a box of them sitting here. They had been under my line stage which now has Ultra Minis under it. I put them under the rails extending front and back of the WGPC. My initial impressions were quite favorable, but supper called.
About two hours later I returned to play more music. I sat in awe most of the remaining evening and hesitated to go to bed. Since these use Ultimate Reference wave guides, I expect a long break in. |
Chris_launder,I too had been using balanced cables. Fortunately, my preamp, Exemplar XP-2, had both balanced and single ended inputs and outputs. I compared what I thought were excellent balanced cables with the single-ended CT-1s, then CT-1Es, and then CT-1Us versus the balanced cable. I now am completely single ended. It is an open question for me as to whether or not the HFCs in balanced will be greatly better than the single-ended ones. |
I 1st heard the CT-1's between my Cd & preamp , if was revelatory , the 1st cable that I can actually say seemed to be free from any type of colouration , so clean that the sound initially appeared to be a tad lean , until true bass signal was required . The seems to be a marked step towards removing the sense of listening to electronics and simply listening to music , occasionally , when my system is playing in the background , I will stop what I am doing and sit down and revel in the sound coming from my system . I now use CT1's between my phono stage & preamp and also have acquired the speaker cables as well . The missing link is the absence of balanced cables to go between pre and power , but that will come , one day .....
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Nglazer, Welcome- I had a Stealth Sextet digital cable that I loved.
It beat out all competition until the CT 1.
In my system, compared to High Fidelity Cables, the sextet was nothing.
Happy Listening
DD |
Personal taste is what it is, who knows what someone else may prefer? This much I know, the HF CT1 series of cables are no "flavor of the month" product regardless of how a particular individual may rank them in a comparision. |
Nglazer, having had two of your three cables, I am confident about what you will hear, but I also know people have different tastes. |
I will be receiving CT-1E IC's tomorrow. They will be up against serious IC competition in my system: Nordost Valhalla, JPS Aluminata and Stealth Indra. If they sound better than ANY of these, it will be quite an accompishment; if they sound better than ALL, if will be monumental. IMHO, I have a very high level system so I should have no trouble discerning strengths/weaknesses. Generally skeptical of "flavor of the month" raves, but we'll give them a fair shot. Stay tuned.
Neal |
Audiolabyrinth, you're welcome too.
Rick put the old "wire is just wire" cliché to sleep, it was the "hiding bottleneck" |
@ RX8man, Hi, sorry I am late here, however, thankyou for the pics, I requested, cheers. |
I agree with Tbg.
Since First using the CT 1 I could hear issues in my system that needed to be adjusted to get the full beauty of the cables. The same was true going to CT 1E then to Ultimate then adding the WGPC. We can truly hear so much further into our systems strength and weaknesses. (which allows finer system tuning.)
By this time I want to make sure I polish all my power and signal contacts with FLITZ metal polish and a good (hopefully clear liquid) contact enhancer.
Including any place a wire is screwed to a connector. Rick uses and recommends "Stabilant 22" |
Powder1, fortunately or unfortunately, the CT-1U speaker wire is clearly superior to the CT-1E, AND the CT-1UR is considerable better yet. And each and every step up comes with much longer breakin. And each step will reveal faults in your system or minor changes in it that may be better or worse. |
Mrtennis,
That was a very nice and descriptive review of those very special cables. |
WGPC gets better and better.
Performances appear effortlessly before me.
I listen in Awe and find it hard to stop...
Sublime! |
Mrtennis, I enjoyed your well written review. Thanks
You have captured their essence in your words.
Hope you get to experience the rest of the line as they take this concept
to much higher levels. |
I'll read the review to see what you heard. My verdict is they're excellent, just love my CT1 -Ultimate digital cable. |
Mrtennis, Very nicely done review. |
gentlemen:
I just reviewed the ct-1 cables.
I suggest you read it. if it seems to long, skip to the conclusion section. you can find the review on :
audiophilia.com |
I started with the digital ultimate IC.(source is always my first choice for new IC's) I am now auditioning a set of CT-1E speaker cables and I am hearing the absolute best sound I have heard from speaker cables! Could the Ultimate speaker cables be that much better!!! |
