I was in a similar spot for a while, running a 50 lbs table (Clearaudio Innovation Wood) on a Lovan Sovereign (three tiers of 7" shelves). These stacked modules are not particularly rigid, and the relatively small 3-point footprint doesn’t help on floors like mine. I filled all the tubes with lead shot, but that didn’t help at all with rigidity; it only damped the nasty metallic ringing.
The Sovereign was a poor solution for this very nice, mass-loaded table.There were definitely feedback issues, and it was very sensitive to footfalls, etc. The VTI-style stands are even flimsier. I added a Maple butcher block, which helped a bit. But honestly, I was just fighting the nature of things, and my old SOTA Star III was a more natural fit in this scenario (the spring suspension absorbed a lot of these issues).
You want something that has a rigid frame, not modules. 4-points and a larger footprint is also better. When I upgraded to the Innovation Master I knew the old Lovan would render this upgrade pointless, so I went crazy and got a Critical Mass Systems rack -- MUCH better, obviously (you can see the massive difference between these racks in my virtual system pics). But there will much better solutions than the Lovan for much less money too. As mentioned previously, some of the active isolation platform makers like Herzan will supposedly make a very nice (and rigid) custom stand for a reasonable price.
The Lovan/VTI stands are OK for digital sources and SS components. |
My instinct says that stacking suspensions and/or squishy layers can have severe unintended consequences, especially the more stuff you layer in there. Keep it limited to 1 suspension or squishy layer, and it should be a good one. I had the "Gramma" version of those Auralex for speakers, and it’s not something I’d put a high-end 50 lbs table on...too squishy, and has a very cheap feeling (and sounding) MDF/felt top board.
Securing the Lovan modules (somehow) is a good idea; man that always made me nervous as heck when I had to curve around a back corner to do cable connections. And I know the slide-y glossy shelves issue all too well. Had a girlfriend once take a tumble, glance the rack (1 had 3 modules stacked with the CA Innovation on a maple block on the top), and nearly slide the TT off. No harm done in the end, though.
But your beautiful table really deserves a rigid-framed, 4-point rack! I’d look at something like the Adona AV45G in your shoes (not the modules, the full frame). ASAP. Not too crazy priced at $1K for a 3-tier (really quite sane actually). No affiliation, and I’ve not had one myself, but I’ve seen the Adonas in use on very high-end TT setups, including a pair of ears I’ve trusted for a long time. That should help immensely, and you can still experiment with high-tech/suspension feet under the table to address the foot-falls and feedback. I should’ve done that when I got the first Innovation, or stuck with a SOTA (man that spring suspension forgives a lot).
And I just remembered that Symposium makes a platform with a small suspension in the feet, for turntables, that users seem to love. But you’ll still want a solid stand under it. |
Thanks for posting that; extremely detailed and informative, and interesting! I'm going to parse through it again. I think this can help others, if nothing else to get us thinking about things. The isolation/coupling interfaces for high-end turntables are so crucial! |
@prof
That's awesome you got hooked up finally, and have superb sound! That's what it's all about. Personally I'd worry about making things too complex with multiple various isolators/platforms, and their interactions, on a less than stellar frame, but if it sounds good and you don't have feedback issues, then that is good.
Still, in the future, consider something like an Adona rack! A good turntable deserves a rigid, substantial frame underneath it. Good isolation on top of a good frame should yield stellar results.
I host most my images on imgur, or also you can easily post a Virtual System here on Audiogon! We'd all love to see what you've got. |
Sorry again man...with what you’ve described, the suspension is toast, and it won’t sound fine, if it can even take the weight of VTF without completely bottoming out :(
I’ve unfortunately seen a couple of cartridges get borked in my days; cantilever pipes themselves can take a hell of a lot of impact force and appear to be fine. But the stylus on one end (especially the way it attaches to the cantilever), and the suspension on the other (especially the way it attaches to the cantilever), aren’t as hardy.
Time to have a few brews! |
Sorry man. Sadly that’s a tale I’ve heard FAR too often over the years. My friend Tom had a Dynavector XX-2 killed this way. The best surefire way to prevent this is having your analog gear in a room that can be locked off from access by the cleaning lady, and clean that room yourself. Or at least, get an arm with removable wands or headshells; remove and lock them up safe before a cleaning (you better remember each time, too). You’d be amazed at how ineffective verbal instructions can be. You need physical barriers.
Since at a minimum here the cantilever & suspension is compromised/destroyed (probably the coils too), a retip will not do. You’ll need either a full rebuild (e.,g. Soundsmith) or to trade-in for a new one.
Choosing a cartridge from a company with a good rebuild policy -- which I consider to be a rebuild for more than 50% off retail price of new (e.g. Koetsu, Ortofon) -- helps mitigate the blow at times like this. Benz used to have excellent trade-in & trade-up prices, but I’m not sure what they offer now.
I've owned a few Benzes, and I know that the Wood L was a really nice sounding unit :( |
Ah ok when you mentioned “loose and wiggly” I thought you were referencing the cantilever, which would be a no-recovery scenario. You might actually be ok here! |
Believe me, I've been there before with the "does it sound different tonight because I messed it up?" cartridge paranoia. It's all in our heads. Do experiment with the VTA though; good suggestion on that. And yes, loading can have a big impact on the overall hardness vs. softness of sound. Welcome to vinyl!
Sorry to give a needless scare when I thought it was your cantilever that got knocked loose. Sounds like you got lucky and everything is fine; happy weekend listening! |
I had the Benzes in that range (Glider L2, Wood M2, Ref 3) and enjoyed the heck out of them when I started in vinyl 10 years ago. But when I heard my first Koetsu, and its fat lush midrange, it was probably the biggest WOW moment I ever had in hifi. Definitely made the Benz sound like it had relatively scooped mids. Between the Benz and Koetsu, I also had some Ortofons; I really liked the Kontrapunkt "c" (very good mids) which has been succeeded in their line by the Cadenza Bronze (also very good).
I do remember the Benzes sounding somewhat like what you describe, though they should have a nice balanced sound overall, so it's hard to tell if the midrange thinness you're hearing is much more than it should be due to setup, arm match, phono stage match, a combination of all these factors etc. At the time I had Benz, I didn't experiment too much with phono stages and arms; I used a Benz PP-1 (with some loading plugs) and Fidelity Research FR64fx, the latter of which is better optimized for lower compliance cartridges. Keep plugging away and trying various setup tweaks. Vinyl is a long journey of experimentation and learning. |
