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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman

Showing 3 responses by veerossi

veerossi
174 posts
 
I hope this tome helped someone,

    Tim
Yes, helped me Tim. Thanks!
I'm at a point where I have the gear I want and I have setup my speakers to the best of my ability. Room treatment is my next project. I know you went the GIK route. Sounds like all went well. What do you think about Acousticfields vs GIK vs others? What made you go GIK?

veerossi
174 posts
 
Back when I was still gathering info about sub setups, I mentioned SWARM and DEBRA bass array to the local store where I buy my gear from. I had one sub, then two subs, then new main speakers with no subs and was then looking to go with the DEBRA for my new mains (Tannoy Turnberry Prestige GR’s) The sales person gave me a facial expression which communicated he thought I was over complicating this whole sub thing. After his dismissive glance, he presented: “You only need 2 good REL subs to get the bass right.” I’m glad I didn’t go that route. My setup is different from the standard DEBRA though: I’m still unclear how to setup the phasing on the sub amps since my DEBRA uses 2 Qty of the SA1000 subs amps instead of one to drive the 4 subs. It’s supposed to have some benefit for phasing. All I know is it kicks some serious ass compared to any of my previous setups. Bass issue resolved for me!
I’d bet if Duke and James joined forces with REL, they would sell the crap out of a wireless/ self-powered 4 sub bass array.
And- oh, if REL (masters of all things subwoofer) is selling a sub array $priced it to the moon, then it must be good, right? Be a good little audiophile sheep and just agree with the big guy. Do as they tell you to do: follow instructions blindly. Take your REL subs to the counter and swipe your card on the way out. “Thank you and have a great day.” I think a lot of naysayers follow the well beaten path. That is until some big company realizes they can steal the sub array idea to make it their own, make it more marketable and ultimately scoop up all the cash on the table and screw-over the people who put in the real work to get this distributed bass array out there in the first place. It’s just a matter of time (in my mind) before more people start to climb aboard the DIstributed Bass-Array-party boat. Once a REL or JL jump in to the sub array market, you watch how many they will sell, and also watch the forums flourish with “yes” chatter afterwards.
I forgot who posted it, but I’m game for anyone who wants to do the video for testing 1,2,3 vs 4 subs at my house. I’m always enthusiastic, curious and eager to learn. I’m in Southern California BTW and wear mask/ social distance.  
To be clear, I have no pony in this race. I don’t care who wins, I’m in it for the learning experience and to add to my personal knowledge base. Maybe for once someone can put out good advice based on several people’s real life experiences and some kind of measurements instead of forum banter or “professional” reviewers who I simply most of the time do not trust. They are tangled in a conflict of interest and are flawed for this reason. 
veerossi
174 posts
 
@audiokinesis 
Hi Duke, I finally got to see what you look like in a YouTube video for RMAF from some years ago. Its clear you are very passionate and fascinated about what you do. I enjoyed watching you speak. 
Im enjoying your setup and I’m hoping you might be able to help with my questions:

Using your setup with 2 SA1000 sub amps instead of the standard 1 amp, can you please explain how to set phasing and provide an explanation of the theory behind it? Should  all 4 of the sub satellites be in phase?
Since I’m using 2 amps (instead of the standard 1amp setup) Is it beneficial to wire a front left sub to the right rear side amplifier and a right and a right rear sub wired to the front left? Or maybe have just one of the subs out of phase?

When dialed-in correctly can this phasing affect the width and height of the soundstage?

When treating a room which has your sub setup, does it need the same amount and types of room treatment as a room using 1 or 2 subs?

Is it advisable to use something other than the standard sub enclosure rubber feet in rooms with hardwood floor on a raised foundation, or best to leave them as is?

Thanks!
Mike
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