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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman

Showing 5 responses by cleeds

cleeds
6,111 posts
 
tyray
... why do people on this site always verbally attack Duke for just being a businessman, entrepreneur and fellow Agon poster? ... all the keyboard internet negativity is not warranted and shows some lack of civility ... to attack Duke for trying to make a living everytime this subject comes up? Is nothing more but and act of hiding behind your moniker cowardice ... Don’t attack Duke ... are you guys just gonna flap your gums at Duke? ...

I don't see anyone on this thread "attacking" Duke, so I really don't understand your indignation.
cleeds
6,111 posts
 
audiokinesis
Cleeds, can you articulate the core of what your objection is? THAT might be worth talking about, as we might be able to reach mutual understanding.
 I don't have any objection to swarm or DBA systems at all. None.
Some of its advocates are effusive in their promotion and it looks pretty silly. That is all.
cleeds
6,111 posts
 
atmasphere

@cleeds I think if you reread these comments above you will see that I was correct ...
I think the quotes I provided speak for themselves. I'm comfortable with letting each reader decide this matter for himself.
cleeds
6,111 posts
 
erik_squires
The idea that only swarms can sound good, or are the ideal fix for any possible ailment your system has is just not supported by evidence.
atmasphere
I do not believe anyone here is making that claim ...
But that is exactly the claim that some have made:
millercarbon
Surely no one with the room, who takes the time to compare, would ever choose anything else. No one has. No one ever will. The difference is so night and day that Duke had one customer with a $30k subwoofer budget decide to buy the Swarm. Not even a $30k sub can match a $3k Swarm.
So there’s your answer ... Because since we all know no one or two subs can ever touch a DBA, then not only do the high-end dealers make money selling you the one sub that can’t work, they get to sell you another ... sinnce you already know DBA works, and yet is not widely adopted, then you know how good they are at selling audiophiles on stories ... Why would anyone buy a sub? They don’t. They buy a story
And here’s another:
mijostyn
Proving the superiority of a multi subwoofer setup is easy ... the ultimate subwoofer system requires 4 large subwoofers with at least 2000 watts of power each and room control.

cleeds
6,111 posts
 
audiokinesis
@Erik_squires wrote:

" The idea that only swarms can sound good, or are the ideal fix for any possible ailment your system has is just not supported by evidence."

This is what’s called a "straw man argument", and is a fallacy. Here’s the definition ...
No, it’s not a straw man argument at all, because some of these "swarm" advocates have argued just that, and have done so repeatedly. Here’s one just from this thread:
millercarbon
Surely no one with the room, who takes the time to compare, would ever choose anything else. No one has. No one ever will. The difference is so night and day that Duke had one customer with a $30k subwoofer budget decide to buy the Swarm. Not even a $30k sub can match a $3k Swarm.
So there’s your answer ... Because since we all know no one or two subs can ever touch a DBA, then not only do the high-end dealers make money selling you the one sub that can’t work, they get to sell you another ... sinnce you already know DBA works, and yet is not widely adopted, then you know how good they are at selling audiophiles on stories ... Why would anyone buy a sub? They don’t. They buy a story

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