HELP I think I have an electrical issue??

So I have just spoken with the company that put my furnace in. He has pretty much told me that it is RF noise and that the furnace is hooked up correctly or else the computer would not let it start. That included the fact that I asked him about not being grounded correctly, and the neutral and hot wires being crossed, etc....
He basically said to me that there was pretty much no way that the furnace wasn't hooked up correctly assuring me that what they did was done correctly.

Then he said I should put a rf noise filter on my amps!!
So obviously I am not wanting to do this, but he also said that it is possible to maybe put a rf noise filter in line with the circuit to the furnace.

Tim, what is your understanding of an isolated ground?

Instead of hooking the outlet like you would to normal outlet.
You use a 3 wire + ground (12/3).

Black -> Power
White -> Neutral
Red w/ green tape -> Ground
Bare wire -> Ground to metal receptacle box

So what I am getting from this is that an isolated ground outlet differs from a standard, is that it the receptacle box is also grounded in addition to the outlet.

Now, that I am thinking about it, would actually hooking up the isolated ground correctly possibly help me get rid of the rf noise coming from my furnace ignition??

Tim,
Installing an IG recept on an NM-B branch circuit will not have any benefit whats so ever. Using a ferrous metal box in place of the plastic box could actually degrade the sonics of you audio system.

IG receptacles are mainly used in commercial or industrial buildings where EMI/RFI noise may be present on metallic electrical conduits, building steel structures, metal wall studs, ect, ect.
In this case for sensitive electronic equipment a IG recept may be desired.
Lets say a customer bought a piece of equipment that states the equipment must be connected to a 120V 20 amp dedicated circuit with an IG NEMA 5-20R receptacle.

First off to be a "true dedicated" branch circuit the circuit wiring can not share a conduit with any other branch circuit wiring.

So the electrician installs a 1/2" EMT, (thin wall), conduit from the electrical panel to the new recept outlet location. (Distance is short voltage drop is not a problem)
For the wire he selects #12 THHN.
(1)Black conductor, hot.
(1) White conductor, neutral.
(2) insulated green conductors.
** One green wire bonds, connects to the metal rough-in box and the other green wire connects the ground screw terminal on the IG recept.
Back at the electrical panel The black hot connects to a 20 amp breaker. The white wire to the neutral bar. And 99.9% of the time both green equipment grounding wires connect to the same equipment ground bar..... NEC will allow the ground wire that is connected to the IG recept to extend through other upstream panels,(that feed the panel that is feeding the new dedicated branch circuit), and connect the ground wire where the main feeder neutral is connected to earth.... How often do you think that happens?

Now, that I am thinking about it, would actually hooking up the isolated ground correctly possibly help me get rid of the rf noise coming from my furnace ignition??

Simple answer, no....

At this point you can't say for sure the EMI/RFI is being radiated through the air or being carried on your homes wiring... Or Both...

You would of thought the Heating and Air Conditioning Contractor would have at least sent out a tech to make sure the ignitor assembly was firmly connected to the burner assembly. And the burner assembly securely fastened to the furnace. That the ignition module grounding jumper was securely fastened to the metal structure of the furnace.

What make is the furnace. Manufacture and model number? I assume the furnace is a forced air furnace.

When you get home tonight try the gas cloth dryer...

The Midwest is full of gas furnaces with electronic ignition/ignitors.... I can't recall ever reading a thread here on Agon or AA where a member experienced your same problem.

For what it is worth My furnace is a Lennox high efficiency with an electronic ignition system. It even uses a VFD to ramp down the fan speed before shutting off after a cycle.

Audio system,
Sonic frontiers Line One preamp, tubes.
ARC VT50 power amp, tubes.

The furnace does not effect my audio system whats so ever.

Tim,
I have been following this thread with interest. I have two points:
1. Did you say that you had confirmed that your dedicated audio circuit is not on the same hot buss as the furnace?
If those two circuits are still on the same hot buss, I would be interested if moving one of them to the other buss solves the problem.
2. A simple passive power conditioner may also solve the probem. In my small cabin, one curcuit feeds my audio system as well as a laptop computer (and refridgerator). The laptop was putting noise on the line simply by being plugged in, and much worse noise when its processors were working.
A PS Audio Duet power conditioner eliminated the noise. I first plugged the laptop alone into the Duet and that worked perfectly. I then plugged the amps alone into the Duet and that worked perfectly as well. I run it that way because I can then plug the CD player/DAC into the Duet's other isolated outet. This arrangement isolates the CD player from the amps and allows for the filtering of noise from other things on the circuit (e.g. fridge).
Regards,
Charlie

So I just plugged the amps into another outlet in my living room. (This is the actual breaker for my living room and kitchen I believe.) I still got the ignition noise through my speakers.

I will try my gas dryer as soon as I can this evening and report back.

Tim

Doesn't surprize me that the furnace installer didn't come out for free. The suggestions I made in my first post can be above and beyond the manufacturer and code requirements. The installer probably did it right, but it might be better.

Be specific:
1) Make sure furnace chasis is properly bonded
2) Add heat resistant ground wire from pilot assembly (not typical) The screws that hold on the pilot are very short and a wire connector will be required.
3) Ensure ignition module is bonded (normal)
4) Bond neutral side control transformer (as opposed to floated)

There are filters that can be hard wired into the furnace but you would only require to filter the control circuit/transformer which would be no more than 40VA and not the blower/combustion fans. There are many hard wired line filters/spark quenchers that are available.

I'm not dismissing RFI but suggesting tackling the simplest solution first.

Ngjockey,
Thanks for your input. I will try to relay some of this information available to my installer. Maybe I can just forward some of these ideas to him.

Also, there was no noise that came through my speakers when I started the gas dryer.

See if you can order a Okaya XEB1202. Just google it. Should only cost a few bucks. On AC circuits, it's wired parallel to the load. Probably better on the 24V side. Notice polarity.

http://www.okaya.com/images/noise/1200.pdf

Tim,
Good that the gas Dryer did not cause a problem. That is a plus I would think.

Before you contact the installer I suggest you do a little homework. I asked you to post who made your furnace and the model number if possible. I spent a little time on Google last night and I found there are others out there with similar problems as you.

Check this out......
Quote from Link:

FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
Enforcement Bureau
Spectrum Enforcement Division
1270 Fairfield Road
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania 17325-7245

CERTIFIED MAIL-RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED

August 28, 2006

(name withheld)
(address withheld)
Lebanon, PA 17402

Dear (name withheld):

The Federal Communications Commission has received a complaint that your residential furnace ignition system is causing harmful radio interference to an operator in the Amateur Radio Service. The complainant is:

(name withheld)
(address withheld)
Lebanon, PA 17042

The FCC has the responsibility to require that such problems be rectified within a reasonable time if the interference is caused by faulty consumer equipment. Under FCC rules, equipment such as a furnace igniter is classified as an "incidental radiator." This term is used to describe equipment that does not intentionally generate any radio-frequency energy, but that may create such energy as an incidental part of its intended operation.

To help you better understand your responsibilities under FCC rules, here are the most important rules relating to radio and television interference from incidental radiators:

Title 47, CFR Section 15.5 General conditions of operation.

(b) Operation of an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator is subject to the conditions that no harmful interference is caused and that interference must be accepted that may be caused by the operation of an authorized radio station, by another intentional or unintentional radiator, by industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) equipment, or by an incidental radiator.

(c) The operator of the radio frequency device shall be required to cease operating the device upon notification by a Commission representative that the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected.

Title 47, CFR Section 15.13 Incidental radiators.

Manufacturers of these devices shall employ good engineering practices to minimize the risk of harmful interference.

Title 47, CFR Section 15.15 General technical requirements.

(c) Parties responsible for equipment compliance should note that the limits specified in this part will not prevent harmful interference under all circumstances. Since the operators of Part 15 devices are required to cease operation should harmful interference occur to authorized users of the radio frequency spectrum, the parties responsible for equipment compliance are encouraged to employ the minimum field strength necessary for communications, to provide greater attenuation of unwanted emissions than required by these regulations, and to advise the user as to how to resolve harmful interference problems (for example, see Sec. 15.105(b)).

The complainant has attempted unsuccessfully to resolve this problem with the furnace igniter and as a result the matter has been referred to our office. The FCC prefers that those responsible for the proper operation of equipment assume their responsibilities fairly. This means that you should resolve the interference caused by the furnace igniter and make necessary corrections within a reasonable time.

While the FCC has confidence that most people are able to resolve these issues voluntarily, the FCC wants to make you aware that this unresolved problem may be a violation of FCC rules and could result in a monetary forfeiture (fine) for each occurrence. At this stage, the FCC encourages the parties to resolve this problem without FCC intervention; but if necessary to facilitate resolution, the FCC may investigate possible rules violations and address appropriate remedies.

The American Radio Relay League, a national organization of Amateur Radio operators, may be able to offer help and guidance about radio interference that involves Amateur Radio operators.

American Radio Relay League
Radio Frequency Interference Desk
225 Main Street
Newington, CT 06111
Tel: (860) 594-0200
E-mail: rfi@arrl.org

Please advise the complainant what steps you are taking to correct this reported interference problem. The FCC expects that most cases can be resolved within 60 days of the time they are first reported. If you are unable to resolve this within 60 days, please advise this office about the nature of the problem, the steps you are taking to resolve it and the estimated time in which those steps can be accomplished. If you have any questions about this matter, please contact me at 717-338-2502.

W. Riley Hollingsworth
Special Counsel

cc: FCC Northeastern Regional Director
End of quote.
FCC Link

===================

If you have a 120V AM/FM radio I would set the radio to the AM band, set the radio on a weak station and listen for the ignitor interference. Good chance you will hear it...

I would call the installer back and ask him nicely to call the furnace manufacture Tech Support help line and find out if they have had any similar complaints.
I would also send along the Link I provided along with any other you may find doing a Google search.
At the very least the installer should send one of his techs out to check out the furnace. If the tech does not find a problem nor offers any relief I would then request the installer contact the manufacture of the furnace and request the manufacturer to pay the installer to remedy the problem in what ever manner is needed. The cure might simply be to install an AC line filter on the furnace.

I take that back about putting the XEB on the 24V side. The little control trannie might not be very tolerant of parallel loads. Simplist way is right at the marretttes (wire nuts) of the incoming power. WTH, get a few and have a blast... parallel, reverse parallel...

Ngjockey,
A word of caution for Tim.... Any tampering/modifying of the furnace wiring could void his manufactures warranty.
In most cases the manufacture only warrants the parts. The labor is picked up by the Heating/air conditioning mechanical contractor. It may also release the manufacture of any responsibility to solve the problem.

I would not touch the furnace at this time until Tim has exhausted all avenues for the manufacture/mech contractor to solve the problem. Any line filter device installed at the furnace should be installed by the Mech contractor or his electrician/contractor.
Jim

This still sounds like a faulty ground or miss aliened igniter. I have always had tube equipment as part of my setup. I have never had this problem. Please post the maker of your furnace, Model and Serial Numbers also Style number if available. Carrier & Bryant use style numbers, they are important. Email them if you like. I will call the manufacturer and find out how to repair and or lookup service bulletins if available. I will send you what ever I get but do not try to repair it yourself.
WARNING: Gas furnaces can be very dangerous and should only be repaired by a qualified tech. A furnace is NOT a do it yourself product.

So I dug up my receipt. Here is whats on it.
Ruud UGPN-05EAUER Achiever Upfloe/Horiztonal 50,000BTU 80% Gas Furnace

Thanks again to everyone helping out!

I wasn't serious about Tim digging into this himself. We know the tech won't have any kind of line filter in his truck and it's not likely stocked at the local distributor's either and might have no idea where to look. Unusual stuff, espescially for residential. Tim is more likely to get a shrug and "call somebody else" than a solution, if it does get complex.

I'm pathologically not serious. I'm not being serious right now, seriously.

Well I talked with one of thier service tech an he said this happened to a friend of his that has a home theater also.
He said his friends unit was on the same feed as the power for the home theater so they changed that around so it was not. Then he (this may be an electrical code issue in your area)install at ground rod at the unit and ground it to that instead of the ground to the box. That took care of it. Call an electicain in you area and ask him to make sure your furnace and your sound system is on differant 110 feeds from the 208/230 coming in your house. You could also ask him if he can install a grounding rod. He will know if it is allowed in your area. Ruud factory service around here is Granite Group tel.# 978-458-3200 they were very helpful. They should be able to give you your local reps number. They were not easy to find. No wonder I don't see thier units very often around here.
Tell them mikie sent you. LOL

Other than seeing your system. this is all I can do.
If you have the means I will be happy to come to your location unless you live in the Boston MA. area then I'm around the corner.

Hevac1,

Thanks for digging into this for me, I am going to start with calling my electrician and make sure the furnace and dedicated circuits are on separate feeds. Hopefully that will take care of it.

Also thank you very much for your offer, unfortunately that is a bit out of my means but very nice none the less.
Thanks

Tim

So at the suggestion of my local hifi shop they said I should audition a Shunyata Hydra 2.
This did not fix my problem.
Worth a try though as this was something I could try for free.
Tim

Any solution yet?

First- did you ever try shorting the inputs to the amps to see if this made any difference?I might have missed this?
Second - a trick that I picked up from a broadcast engineer friend of mine is occasionally helpful in tracing down this kind of problem - simply plug in a long heavy duty extension cord still rolled up or "hanked" as it came in the package.This basically is a inductor - if the problem goes away - you know the power line is the source - this can also be used to isolate the source of the problem -you keep plugging it in between the wall and different appliances until the noise attenuates - bingo - that's the problem unit. In your case this isn't necessary since you've identified the noise source as the furnace - but if you try this on the amps - that may tell you that the noise is riding in on the power line (probable).

Not sure if this will totally resolve the issue but I am hoping so. A few days ago I noticed I have no neutral coming in from my meter, it seems to come from the power line to my house but the actual metal pipe that connects my panel to the meter only has 2 power cables and it looks as if there is no room for a neutral in there. The electrician I had take a look said the houseprob never had one?! I'm actually away til early next week so when I return I will get the electrician back over and try to come up with a solution.

A few days ago I noticed I have no neutral coming in from my meter, it seems to come from the power line to my house but the actual metal pipe that connects my panel to the meter only has 2 power cables and it looks as if there is no room for a neutral in there.

No neutral, highly unlikely....
Go outside your house to where the power company's overhead power line attaches to the house. Look up at their cable. You should see 3 wires. 2 insulated conductors and 1 bare conductor. That is if you have a 120/240V service... The bare conductor is the neutral conductor. See if the 3 power company's wires connect to 3 wires coming out of the weather head of your homes electrical service.

How about some pictures.....

The electrician I had take a look said the houseprob never had one?!

Find another electrician!
.

No neutral, highly unlikely....
Go outside your house to where the power company's overhead power line attaches to the house. Look up at their cable. You should see 3 wires. 2 insulated conductors and 1 bare conductor. That is if you have a 120/240V service... The bare conductor is the neutral conductor. See if the 3 power company's wires connect to 3 wires coming out of the weather head of your homes electrical service.

How about some pictures.....

Well yeah, I actually have a neutral coming to my house, there seems to be some sort of sub panel in the rear of my house maybe that is where the neutral is. However it does not seem there is a neutral in my main panel.
I will get pics up soon, unfortunately my camera is down, hopefully my camera can do it justice.

Tim

I know this thread is now almost a year old but I just wanted to give an update as so many people were kind enough to lend a hand and give me some advice with this strange problem that I was having. After having an electrician out and him not being able to do anything to fix the problem. I just figured it was something I had to live with until I went back to balanced interconnects?? Anyhow it was really bugging me so I took off the cover to my panel and looked it over real well. Then I noticed there was 2 wires in 1 breaker?!? For some reason it was difficult to see the other times I took a look. So I moved 1 of the wires to its own breaker and now I cant hear all of the various fans turning on and off in my house. (oven, and bathroom) As well as the furnace ignition clicking several times before it lit! So regardless this has made my night and I just wanted to share, as it only took me just about 1 year to fix this annoying problem!
Thanks again to the people that helped me a year ago trying to fix the problem!

tmesselt

Tim -- Good to know what the explanation turned out to be, and that you were finally able to fix it. Thanks for letting us know.

Best regards,
-- Al

Well, unfortunately the fix was short lived, as the heater starting up is just much quieter than before and I could barely hear it. When I tried the paper shredder though, it came through very loud through my speakers. Oh well, I am going to try new amplification in the coming months so hopefully that will fix it, and if not that maybe balanced interconnects will be the way to go for me.

No, thank you. Was having a problem with 2 boilers chewing up pilot valves mysteriously and it was my research into your problem that led to the Okaya snubbers. Won't be sure if it worked until the valves last for a couple years.