Headphones vs speakers….

While I do hope that "the case" is now closed, I want to add that I moved on to building my own electrostatic speakers by purchasing a kit from ER Audio (western Australia). My reasoning for doing so is that even though there was a tremendous amount of work involved, the degree to which the frequency response can be tweaked to one's satisfaction is almost boundless. And the bass response is fantastic from the panels alone for some of ER's models.

My goal has always been to find used Sander's Sound Systems (model 10e I believe) at under $7000. No such luck and I never got close to seeing that anyone was dumb or desperate enough to sell such gems as such a low cost. If I could do it I would purchase new.  I still might some day. For me the amount required does represent somewhat of a fortune and not just a small one. However, if your goal is flat frequency response down to 20hz with power and a realistic and beautifully presented soundstage... this is one very excellent option for achieving that without selling your car or home. Just ask Roger and I'm sure he'll agree:-)

Better yet schedule a time to swing by his home to see what's possible. You might even get him to drive you around in his roadster and take you out to lunch!

Enjoy,

J

I know that what you claim is true...

Because i did it with my room...

You are spotless right ... 😊

It was the funniest time of my audio journey when i was tuning my room... But it was so hard i will never do it again... It was fun to learn... But when you had learn , the time it will take to do it again , tuning time for 100 resonators, will be very long in my case and way less fun 😁... Anyway now without dedicated room i am satisfied and not frustrated at all with my K340...Some headphones can be more than just very good...

Speakers/room is the best optimal way to reach hi-fi...But as said ghdprentice, some can do the "same" with headphone at less cost... He is right..

For sure headphone and speakers will stay different experiences, but they can rival each other on some acoustic factors..

My best to you...

My reasoning for doing so is that even though there was a tremendous amount of work involved, the degree to which the frequency response can be tweaked to one’s satisfaction is almost boundless.

Mahgister

Again we were discussing frequency response only. The value I place on my own large and ’open’ (please don’t ask me to define this word) audio presentation with a forward soundstage so realistic that you often cannot close your eyes and listen because you are CERTAIN that the musicians are there in front of you in your home and are positioned precisely in their respective positions in such a way that seems to defy logic? And listeners all around you in front and behind talking softly or clanging dinner plates and wine glasses ... It will be some time before a headphone experience can duplicate this along with the "air" of the venue present in front above and to the sides and way up on the corners ... and obviously no way to provide the visceral experience one feels from the power due to a fleet of bass instruments in Carnegie Hall reverberating off the extreme dimensions for example.

The audio industry isn’t close wrt inner ear experiences or whatever term is being used these days for sound produced by high end headphones. I won’t say never though. Not that anyone is asking, but IMO AI is very likely to have an impact and maybe an enormous one. I won’t say how long before such a thing can be affordable or even realistic.

I read you right...

What you describe if you read my past posts is EXACTLY what i myself described as my soundfield ...

I learned how to create this in my room ...

I even in my past posts here use the same expression as you... I was seeing the musicians AROUND me...near me etc it is recording dependant..

But i never thought that an acoustic experience with perfect imaging, soundstage varying dimensions according to EACH recording trade-off, and holographic volume of each sound sources , and listener evevelopment ( ratio of the sound sources volumes related to the listener position inclusio0n ) i never thought that any headphone could emulate that IN HIS OWN WAY...

Some can it seems ...

The AKG K340 optimized can do it... I always disliked any headphones i listen to because the soundfield was between the ears or in a plane surface in front of my head... The K340 give a soundfield out of the head and speaker like , especially so with most well recorded classical albums ..

The reason why is this so, is simple... There is inside two new technologies even for today , hybridation of electrostatic and dynamic cell at 4000 hertz, and 5 fine Tuned Helmholtz passive resonators... The soundfield is so realistic that all my 9 other headphone are unnatural and artificial... To be blunt they sound as trash compared to it and i will never use them...

Then SOME headphone could go where no headphone ever go...😊

I dont know which one can do it apart the K340, the RAAL ? the OMEGA STAX? the ToP HIFIMAN ? this i dont know...I never own them nor optimize any of them ...

There is 4 characteristics in a soundfield , the timbre experience being the ground fundamental ...

--imaging differentitaion , ---soundstage variable dimensions, ---holographic volume of each sound sources, and--- listener envelopment or immersiveness..

I learned how to create them in my room...I learned how to CONTROL them...

I never know that some headphone could give me these 4 soundfield aspects too with a natural timbre experience and deep bass and refined highs... The K340 can... But it take me 6 months to figure out why and 6 modifications ... Then it is possible..

When i listen organ music of Bach on my headphone the soundfield is so realistic and out of the head , i can see the church, and i keep my eyes open , because each time i cannot believe that the sound do not come from the two cups...😊

If it was no so , i would have been desesperate when i had lost my speakers/room after one year of successful tuning...

Read the Dr. Gorike patent, you will learn why this headphone was the flagship of AKG and why it was never refined and discontinued...Too costly to make and too hard to figure out for most consumers...

I spoke to a Kennerton guy and he said to me, after i ask him why they do not try to create a hybrid ? "We tried but it is too complex and too costly to do it right and make a profit"... This give an explanation why there is no real hybrid on the market... The Dharma was not a real hybrid because his electrostatic cell was working ONLY as a super tweeter, and there is no passive resonators then no deep bass experience.. .The soundfield is not holographic probably... I never listened to it ...And i am not interested to try it... The passive resonators in the K340 create a dual chamber which give this speaker like effect and separate clearly mids and bass and deep bass..

Mahgister

Again we were discussing frequency response only. The value I place on my own large and ’open’ (please don’t ask me to define this word) audio presentation with a forward soundstage so realistic that you often cannot close your eyes and listen because you are CERTAIN that the musicians are there in front of you in your home and are positioned precisely in their respective positions in such a way that seems to defy logic? And listeners all around you in front and behind talking softly or clanging dinner plates and wine glasses ... It will be some time before a headphone experience can duplicate this along with the "air" of the venue present in front above and to the sides and way up on the corners ... and obviously no way to provide the visceral experience one feels from the power due to a fleet of bass instruments in Carnegie Hall reverberating off the extreme dimensions for example.

The audio industry isn’t close wrt inner ear experiences or whatever term is being used these days for sound produced by high end headphones. I won’t say never though. Not that anyone is asking, but IMO AI is very likely to have an impact and maybe an enormous one. I won’t say how long before such a thing can be affordable or even realistic.

Something seems not quite right here. When I refer to a forward soundstage I mean you don’t even need to get out a measuring tape to know that the vocalist is betweend 10 and 12 feet directly in front of you singing 2 feet above your ears. Snare drum hit almost precisely 8 feet behind and 6 feet to the right of the vocalist. That’s now about 20 feet in front and to the right. Air off the stage and reverb from the room way up to the left and in the corner approx 30 feet away.

Are you telling me that you can specifically pinpoint extremely low level noise reflecting off everything in the room and you can be certain that sound is "mapping" the room so realistically that you know the upper left corner of the sound venue is 10 feet up and 30 feet to the right of your listening position?

Is the size and air of the venue different for every recording? If you say yes I’d like to know who else on the planet is having this same sort of experience with headphones or IEMs. Don’t get me wrong. I do realize that all the "air" and low level info is there. Headphones are the best way to ensure you’re able to hear all the information including the extreme low level noise that fills out the soundstage with precise cues as the entirety of the venue.

Edit:

I should add for those that might be new here that a recording must be "special" in order to present a listener with such realistic dimensions. I'm only referring to those types of recordings, not all of which are recorded in live venues but rather in studios with sound recording 'magicians' at the helm. I won't go down the list of all the ones I know because many others have covered them on Audiogon Forums.