Headphones vs speakers….

@mahgister 

And please stop making this about you. I don't and never did want to have a discussion about you! People who read your statement in question may very well be new to the subject and trying to build their own systems, experiences and knowledge base. I strongly believe your statement misleads people like this and quite possibly a great many others. It misleads unless you provide some numbers to back up your opinion.

It would make no sense for me to write directly to you when you aren't the audience. If I had written directly to you then I would still want to set the record straight on this: I do not agree with you and I'd be very surprised to find that I'm in the minority. Depending on what you mean by a fortune. But you won't tell us what you mean for some reason.

 

A cheap electrostatics speakers will not give deep bass...

You will need an hybrid... They dont sell 700 bucks ..And you must add the acoustic dedicated room cost in money and in time...

Or an array of subwoofeers... My post spoke about 20 hertz..

Did you forgot ?

And my headphone are so good, better than ALL speakers i listened to in living room , you will need speakers way over the price of all my system cost : 700 dollars... Deep bass +strong dynamics = very good speakers then way more than cheap vintage headphone...

Thats my point...

It is you in a reverse of accusation who misread my post , clear for everyone, that some headphone as my K340 can give a soundfield at a cheap price that only costly speakers will beat...

A controlled acoustic room , i tune mine with resonators , CANNOT replace the speakers specs by the way only optimize then...If your speakers dont go near 20 hertz but only 50 , no room treatment will do more...

The use and meaning of a term is defined by HIS CONTEXT of use in the text where it is used...

A "fortune" compared to a cheap vintage headphone as the AKG K340 which sell for 100 bucks, is many times his price... Then it is clear for everyone with good faith that this metaphor dont means 50,000 bucks probably nor 500 bucks... more around many thousands... IT IS A METAPHOR...

All of what you have to do , instead of going on me for a "word" is asking...

I would have answer many thousands...

how much ?

It depend of the pocket of the people...

High quality headphone are not so easy to beat , on details, deep bass, holography, dynamics  and listener envelopment If we add the cost of acoustic treatment and control... it is way more than my 100 bucks price for a vintage headphone..

Everybody knows that the cheapest solution is headphone.... The price of speakers able to go near 20 hertz +the cost of acoustic is way more...

now dont ask me the exact price it goes from 3,000 at minimum, if you are able to do all the acoustic by yourself as i did, to much more if you do not .., Which if we compare the two, a vintage headphone and Speakers+room acoustic , is for many people here metaphorically a fortune...

Case closed....

 

 

 

 

made my point: I vehemently disagree with your statement! I absolutely can reproduce such frequency responses. I have done such a thing many times over given a very well selected and treated room and a wide variety of not expensive electrostatics. I have no idea why you claim to have experience to the contrary - you don’t even provide room dimensions!

 

 

 

Now this is good stuff Mahgister. Much appreciated that you were willing to stick with it and get down to the dirty details. Yes, I’d also like to call the case closed, but I’d like to close it from my end as well...

First, there was no reason this ever needed to get personal - I really was just trying to stay on topic and thought I did that. Clearly that didn’t come across. Next time I’ll try and be more careful so as to avoid such issues.

Second, you were right: in my haste to respond yesterday I forgot to include that I achieved flat response down to 25hz via 2 subs (I assume the 5hz isn’t that important to you, but if it is please explain why. Not a challenge or accusation - I’d just like to know your source material that produces a noticeable difference with that last 5hz. Assume down 2db at 20hz from 25hz. Can you hear it or feel it? At immense SPL I bet you can, but we never stipulated such a SPL). Placement and many adjustments to frequency response of the subs were very time consuming and most often produced poor results. Getting it just right was not easy and took much longer than I had hoped, largely because adjustments to the dimensions of the adjustable waveguide I created. (20’ x 40’ room with sloping ceiling up to 24 feet and heavy treated curtains that could be moved forward or back and opened or closed).

Third, SPL and room dimensions have tremendous importance wrt this discussion. I believe neither of us have done a good job of pointing this out. If my listening levels are lower than yours for my musical tastes... does my system qualify? I was extremely happy with the results once the work was completed. I think this point needed to be stated up front, and I should have included it in my posts yesterday.

Fourth, I tend to be an insufferably relentless tweaker and am always willing to take chances on used equipment provided it’s shipped correctly and proves to me (after much testing) that everything is as good as new after break in. Everyone reading this forum’s posts has the same option to buy used from extremely reputable sellers and be just as happy as if they purchased new. IMO this is the best way to get into high end - starting with quality lower priced used equipment get the best sound you can out of your listening space via tweaks and treatments and a lot of positional adjustments made after taking a lot of breaks. In my case it was taking these breaks that resulted in most of the time consumed, but I proved to myself it was needed so I kept at it in this fairly inefficient manner until I was happy with my listening space. Once comfortable with my room I then bought and sold equipment at many different price ranges and compared, often with several systems in my possession so I could swap speakers and amps (primarily) in and out and compare. Yes, I realize not many people will or can go to such lengths but some of us will. I believe my experiences prove that anyone can achieve similar results at lower costs if they really want to do so badly enough.

Fifth, after years working on my room and systems I achieved the best results with one of my lowest priced systems. Under $3500 for the electrostatics + subs. Used but outstanding and as good as new. Sure this is a lot of money for many of us but not much for many others. I do consider it a lot of money. Is it a fortune though? Even metaphorically?

Sixth, not many people would call $3500 a fortune. Most people reading these forums will not. How do I know? This is a different question, but let’s just say I do know this. If you want to know how that’s a different thread.

 

Also, I doubt this would have made much difference to our "discussion" but I believe the colloquialism you are referring to is "a small fortune". You may not think this clarification is important, but this is a common phrase used in these circumstances. After all, a large % of people purchase autos at around the $20k mark and only some of them consider that a fortune. Some would consider it a small fortune. I really doubt many of these same people, if audiophiles, would think that $3500 is even a small fortune. After all, many of us can do without our cars but never without our audio systems.

 

Finally, and this could have been stated up front but actually I think will be understood by many but not all: this entire topic relates to frequency response. In my opinion the "magic" of the room signature and the many systems producing sound within it was only partly due to the frequency response of the speakers and room. Hopefully this point is well understood. If not there must be hundreds of of posts addressing it within this forum.

-j

Very thoughtful post and interesting...

Perhaps i misunderstood your first post,... It was formulated as an attack ... But i misinterpret you ...Then i apologize...

For the word "fortune" i will not go further, it is a metaphor born from my side : 100 bucks headphone , 200 bucks dac , 300 bucks Sansui Alpha...

Compared to that 3,500 bucks + all the work time to tune room and subs ... It is costlier...In money and time... Is it a "fortune" ? No , but we can use the word metaphorically if the difference in money is so great... The choice of word is relative to the context of the people who use it... A metaphor is a subjective decision...But how do you evaluate the time to create a room acoustic ?

It take me one year 7 day /7 to tune my room to my satisfaction... I am retired and i studied acoustic and experiment with it as a fun hobby... But i would have NEVER  do it if i was not retired and bored... An headphone compared to this is economical in a superlative way...A super high end system is possible with few well chosen  headphones at a relatively low cost... I did not know that before my successful headphone journey... But very few headphones are satisfying for me...

I am ok with what you describe...It correspond to my experience too...

My best to you...

Now this is good stuff Mahgister. Much appreciated that you were willing to stick with it and get down to the dirty details. Yes, I’d also like to call the case closed, but I’d like to close it from my end as well...

First, there was no reason this ever needed to get personal - I really was just trying to stay on topic and thought I did that. Clearly that didn’t come across. Next time I’ll try and be more careful so as to avoid such issues.

Second, you were right: in my haste to respond yesterday I forgot to include that I achieved flat response down to 25hz via 2 subs (I assume the 5hz isn’t that important to you, but if it is please explain why. Not a challenge or accusation - I’d just like to know your source material that produces a noticeable difference with that last 5hz. Assume down 2db at 20hz from 25hz. Can you hear it or feel it? At immense SPL I bet you can, but we never stipulated such a SPL). Placement and many adjustments to frequency response of the subs were very time consuming and most often produced poor results. Getting it just right was not easy and took much longer than I had hoped, largely because adjustments to the dimensions of the adjustable waveguide I created. (20’ x 40’ room with sloping ceiling up to 24 feet and heavy treated curtains that could be moved forward or back and opened or closed).

Third, SPL and room dimensions have tremendous importance wrt this discussion. I believe neither of us have done a good job of pointing this out. If my listening levels are lower than yours for my musical tastes... does my system qualify? I was extremely happy with the results once the work was completed. I think this point needed to be stated up front, and I should have included it in my posts yesterday.

Fourth, I tend to be an insufferably relentless tweaker and am always willing to take chances on used equipment provided it’s shipped correctly and proves to me (after much testing) that everything is as good as new after break in. Everyone reading this forum’s posts has the same option to buy used from extremely reputable sellers and be just as happy as if they purchased new. IMO this is the best way to get into high end - starting with quality lower priced used equipment get the best sound you can out of your listening space via tweaks and treatments and a lot of positional adjustments made after taking a lot of breaks. In my case it was taking these breaks that resulted in most of the time consumed, but I proved to myself it was needed so I kept at it in this fairly inefficient manner until I was happy with my listening space. Once comfortable with my room I then bought and sold equipment at many different price ranges and compared, often with several systems in my possession so I could swap speakers and amps (primarily) in and out and compare. Yes, I realize not many people will or can go to such lengths but some of us will. I believe my experiences prove that anyone can achieve similar results at lower costs if they really want to do so badly enough.

Fifth, after years working on my room and systems I achieved the best results with one of my lowest priced systems. Under $3500 for the electrostatics + subs. Used but outstanding and as good as new. Sure this is a lot of money for many of us but not much for many others. I do consider it a lot of money. Is it a fortune though? Even metaphorically?

Sixth, not many people would call $3500 a fortune. Most people reading these forums will not. How do I know? This is a different question, but let’s just say I do know this. If you want to know how that’s a different thread.

 

Also, I doubt this would have made much difference to our "discussion" but I believe the colloquialism you are referring to is "a small fortune". You may not think this clarification is important, but this is a common phrase used in these circumstances. After all, a large % of people purchase autos at around the $20k mark and only some of them consider that a fortune. Some would consider it a small fortune. I really doubt many of these same people, if audiophiles, would think that $3500 is even a small fortune. After all, many of us can do without our cars but never without our audio systems.

 

Finally, and this could have been stated up front but actually I think will be understood by many but not all: this entire topic relates to frequency response. In my opinion the "magic" of the room signature and the many systems producing sound within it was only partly due to the frequency response of the speakers and room. Hopefully this point is well understood. If not there must be hundreds of of posts addressing it within this forum.

-j

 

While I do hope that "the case" is now closed, I want to add that I moved on to building my own electrostatic speakers by purchasing a kit from ER Audio (western Australia). My reasoning for doing so is that even though there was a tremendous amount of work involved, the degree to which the frequency response can be tweaked to one's satisfaction is almost boundless. And the bass response is fantastic from the panels alone for some of ER's models.

My goal has always been to find used Sander's Sound Systems (model 10e I believe) at under $7000. No such luck and I never got close to seeing that anyone was dumb or desperate enough to sell such gems as such a low cost. If I could do it I would purchase new.  I still might some day. For me the amount required does represent somewhat of a fortune and not just a small one. However, if your goal is flat frequency response down to 20hz with power and a realistic and beautifully presented soundstage... this is one very excellent option for achieving that without selling your car or home. Just ask Roger and I'm sure he'll agree:-)

Better yet schedule a time to swing by his home to see what's possible. You might even get him to drive you around in his roadster and take you out to lunch!

Enjoy,

J