Peterayer, analog will never be out of the equation; especially for those of us who value a deep sound stage, wide frequency and dynamic ranges, as well as high definition.
Enjoy the music.
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You gonna need a dump-truck to down load all of that. |
Peterayer, your situation is identical to mine. I'm going through my collection and replacing old (scratched) records with HD Downloads. Your use of records and mine might even be the same, this is not a case of this or that, but both.
Enjoy the music.
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No doubt, if you have the right equipment, analog can be better than digital, but at what price? That's something you can't get around, and no amount of mixing and matching is going to change that. |
When such places as high end emporiums were available, I went to these places like someone who was on a mission, my mission was to verify, or nullify Stereophile's rating system. For me, I verified Stereophile's rating system.
I'm going to give you examples of Stereophile ratings that are old and recognizable analog audio: Class "A" turntable VPI TNT MK V $6000., and that was one of the cheaper TT's.
Tonearms Class "A": Tri-Planar Mk VI $3250.; Rega RB 900, $995.
Cartridges: Class "A" Lyra Helikon $1995.; van den Hul Colibri $6000.
These different classes are not just some arbitrary designations given by reviewers, but different levels of sonic quality. It's the sound of Class "A" as compared to the sound of Class "B". Of course we all know a cartridge does not generate a sound alone, it's the improvement of the sound of the music after installation of that cartridge in your system. As audiophiles, we are required to learn system compatibility, but that will not replace component quality, and you can not get class "A" sound with Class "B" components, although you can consider whatever sound you're listening to Class "A".
A class "C" Rega TT can be upgraded to yield Class "B" sound with modifications, and there are other components that can be modified to yield a higher sonic quality, but to get into the vaunted realm of Class "A" sonics will require a trip to the bottom of one's pockets, especially since every single solitary component in the chain must be at that same sonic level.
I believe these HD Downloads are generating the equivalent of Class "A" analog. If one already has a Class "A" analog rig, there is certainly no reason to get excited about HD Downloads, but on the other hand, I believe they're economical for those of us who don't.
Enjoy the music.
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Raulirgras, and Chayro; there are more variables in this game than you can shake a stick at. There are current CD's, not old music on new CD's; but new music recently recorded that is better than my HD Downloads of old music. You have to take all variables into consideration as you come to them.
Enjoy the music.
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Zenblaster, "In my comparison evaluation, I used Santana "Abraxas" as the test LP. Since I've worn out 5 copies of this album, to say I'm familiar with it is an understatement. "Singing Winds And Crying Beasts" is the first cut, it has "tinkly" sounding chimes that test definition on all equipment. After listening to a new LP, I gave it an "A" rating. This meant the HD Download would have to be some kind of fantastic to top the LP."
After wearing out so many LP's, it only took two cuts to tell me something was different, and of course I listen to it all the time now. What ever your intangibles are, I have yet to discover them.
Enjoy the music.
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Tonywinc, unlike analog, a cheap USB cable works just fine. A Music Streamer Dac works just fine. You don't have to be rich in order to get into digital, although there is a lot to learn. Fortunately, I know a "geek". This old dog can't, or wont learn new tricks. Your way is the best way, which ever way that is.
Enjoy the music.
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Zd542, if for a moment we can just drop "Stereophile" out of this equation, and designate a particular level of "sonic" quality as class "A", all will become clear. This is something I've only heard at high end emporiums. Once was with all top of the line ARC electronics, and top of the line Thiel speakers, plus room treatment. The sound was visible in the air, you could point to many different spaces where sound emanated from. That was Class "A" sound, and any way you can get it sounds good to me. Class "B" or "B+" is very, very good, if someone thinks it's Class "A", who am I to argue. I have "holographic" sound in my listening "spot", I won't say "room", but from where I sit there's "holographic sound", the speakers are nonexistent. I assume most hardworking audiophile's have the same thing.
When you enjoy your music playing on your system, what difference does Class make?
Enjoy the music.
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Tonywinsc, I don't know what you're waiting for? After your wait you'll still be faced with the same options and decisions. With HD you can have Class "A" audio through your computer. This is the same as if you had Class "A" analog gear. That's why I said those who have Class "A" analog gear may not be impressed. In regard to the variations in records, that's not going to change. The HD is going to vary with the record it's copied from.
Enjoy the music.
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I can not recommend HD Downloads for anyone who is not a computer "Geek", or doesn't know one. Something went wrong with my HD Downloads, and I was about to go crazy, when I decided to call my "Geek". He said the computer had to be reset. I have no idea why that only affected the HD Downloads. My "Geek" doesn't talk much, I still don't know what was wrong, but he fixed it. If you're not a "Geek", and can't call one, stay away from HD Downloads.
In regard to what I've downloaded, I'm still going "Ga Ga" over the results. That intangible quality that evokes an emotional response to music, is called "soul" by some, and "geist" or spirit by others. It's the life force in the music. I've heard CD's that were totally stripped of that quality, even though they were of the same music. These HD Downloads are 100% intact, and are no different than Class "A" analog. Since my mind will not accept digital amplification, I can understand your inability to accept HD Downloads. Maybe our problems are the same, I've never heard a digital amp, have you heard HD Downloads?
I'll try to address some questions you have. My Download of the MJQ reflects that groups recording quality. While Santana was recorded earlier, it's a much better recording in regard to sonics. That's a variable you will have to determine on a case by case basis. In each case, there is no deviation from the LP. If there was a flaw in the original LP, it will be worse on the Download.
When you're in a high end emporium and hear the difference between Class "A" and Class "B", you will notice that it's a little better, however when you hear the price difference of the components, unless you're rich, you will be quite content to live with Class "B". Class "B" is not inferior as much as it is cheaper. Class "B" is very very good. Whatever you have, if you think it's Class "A", that works for me.
Enjoy the music.
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Smatsui, as an "audiophile" it's understood that you have to do your homework in regard to putting a system together. Forget about "Stereophile" altogether, and you still have to have a very expensive analog system to get sound better than a HD Download. Since only the most special LP's will be downloaded, I will continue to enjoy my analog rig very much, but I have no illusions in regard to HD sounding better than "My" rig.
Enjoy the music.
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Petepappp, I have a 2 track Technics reel to reel, and everything that's recorded sounds better on playback. The sound stage is bigger with more depth and definition. Most people don't believe that. Now the problem is no tape available.
While the qualities of recordings vary from one to the other, these down loads vary with the record, and they are "always" better than whatever particular record they were downloaded from. The last HD Download had "nuance" on a record I hadn't heard since 60.
Enjoy the music. |
After upgrading some of my old vinyl treasures to what for me was the ultimate, I'm quite satisfied. There just isn't enough new music to go overboard on HD Downloads, and I'm contented with my analog rig.
Let me tell you about something that really made my day. When "Blue Funk", by Ray Charles and Milt Jackson was a 45 on jukeboxes in the early 60's, I heard "nuances" that I hadn't heard since. The 33 1/3 LP didn't quite capture those nuances. Lucky for me HD Downloads had that LP, and although it wasn't 45, it captured those very same "nuances" that I've been in search of for so long.
I just put "Upojenie", by Pat Metheney and Maria Jopek into the CD player. It was recorded in 2008, and it's better than any CD or record that I've got. This CD casts a wide 3D sound stage that breathes, the performers are in the room. The only difference between it and the Downloads is the "jet black background". Digital is not standing still.
The music is reminiscent of "Off Ramp" by Pat, but much more advanced. Anna Maria Jopek, the vocalist, is absolutely fantastic. Although the sonics are as good as it gets, I don't see anything special on the CD. There are so many options that I'm in a music lovers paradise.
Enjoy the music.
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As everyone knows, there is no more bias on any forum than on the "analog" forum, which is why I posted digital here. Even with all the bias, those who tried HD Downloads have given them a positive response.
Cartridges have personalities which transcend to the music. DigitaL has no personality, it's totally neutral.
Raul, when you get to the highest echelon of the "high end", you've gone beyond anything, and everything technical that I know of. We've gone into the realm of "pure music", therefore only explanations that relate to music can suffice.
I stated on one of my posts that I heard "nuance" on a Download, that I had been in search of since the early 60's. The CD didn't even come close, my LP was sadly lacking but at least it hinted at this "nuance" I was in search of. Here is something almost no one knows; those "jukeboxes" we fed quarters in the 60's, were "high end", and 45's gave the ultimate results, that's why we couldn't stop feeding them quarters. That's where I heard this nuance I had been in search of, and since rediscovered it on a Download.
After I completed electronics school ages ago, and SS ruled, we debated "audiophiles" who didn't even know ohms law. They gave musical explanations, while we gave "technical" explanations. There was no way their antiquated tube amplifiers could be better than our up to date SS amplifiers, all you had to do was compare the specs of our SS amps to their antiquated tube amps.
I no longer bother with technical explanations to explain anything musical, because as an "audiophile", that's all that's relevant. I've been listening to these HD Downloads since posting this thread, and they only get better. They deliver that intangible aspect of the music which the artist intended to deliver. These intangible aspects involve us emotionally and give great satisfaction, they are why we spend so much on this equipment, and these "intangible" aspects are the absolute bottom line, they're what it's all about.
Enjoy the music.
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Raul, I can't find any difference in reference to your specific question. HD Downloads are direct from master tapes, which could explain the high quality, but technically I don't see any difference between the two since both are 24/192.
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Raul, a funny thing just happened; although you stated you were ignorant on this whole digital subject, you've summed up everything I've discovered after making comparisons for all my waking hours, for the last 10 days; digital is better than records by a hair because of the silent background.
No record or HD Download can be better than the master tape. A recently recorded CD will sound better than music recorded a long time ago on record because of the equipment used to make the master tape. Love it or hate it, that's the way it is. No HD Download of old music, will be better than a recently recorded CD, because of the equipment used to make the master tape. "Analogers" are always comparing music on record that was made a long time ago, to something on CD that was recently recorded, and saying it's better; that's what I call "Psycho-acoustic" hearing, if it's on a record, it's always better.
Enjoy the music.
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I paid for a 44.1 KHZ/16 bit Download before I noticed what it was, and discovered that it's no better than a CD. "Buyer Beware", don't waste your money on a download that's no better than a CD.
44.1 is the standard sample rate for a CD. The sample rate defines the frequency range of a digital recording, also the amount of time between samples. The bit resolution defines the dynamic range of the sound, therefore you want 24 bits for a Download, as opposed to the CD standard 16 bit.
When comparing a 24 bit file with a 16 bit file you will get smoother high frequencies and more depth to the sound stage. Personally, I want it all, wider frequency range and wider dynamic range; that means 88 KHZ/ 24 Bit or nothing.
Enjoy the music.
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Petepappp, that was my favorite cassette tape too.
A strange discovery; why would a Download be better than a CD when both were the same technically in regard to 44.1KHZ/16 Bit? Maybe master tape access, I don't have an answer.
Enjoy the muhsic. |
Petepappp, in order to get where I am as an "audiophile", I had to spend years in an analytical mode, as opposed to simply enjoying the music. Now that I've reverted back to that "analytical" mode I'm going to stick with it until I've completed my mission; that is with your help as well as others.
Although there is a difference, it's not enough to pay for unless you're replacing one of your beloved scratched records. I'm not using these "downloads" for new music, but for records I already have. For me, the advantage is the improvement in sonics that would require the most expensive analog gear. Strictly for my purposes, if one already has the most expensive analog gear, there would be no need for the downloads. When a person can get excited over a record they've heard a "bazillion times", that speaks for itself in regard to how good 88KHZ/24 Bit is. The bottom line is still the music, after all is said and done.
Enjoy the music.
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Believe it or not, I'm discovering all the variables mentioned close up and personal, but at the same time; I'm really enjoying these HD Downloads. Nothing can be better than the master tape, but it can be as good, and so it is with these downloads, they vary according to the quality of the master tape.
Enjoy the music. |
I'm reporting my findings to you as I "verify" them. HD Download is better than the same CD even when they are technically the same. Why? I don't know.
Enjoy the music.
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Vicdamone, I've already verified that a HD Download is as good as a 45 RPM. The 45 was better than 33 1/3, and both were better than the CD.
This was a 96 KHZ/24 bit HD Download. My judgment was based primarily on "nuance" as opposed to frequency response or dynamic range. Nuance is what I was looking for, and that's what I got.
Enjoy the music.
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Vicdamone, I compared the download to a stock 45. I have no doubts that the special 45 you mentioned is superior when played on the right equipment. I've auditioned equipment that was too good to believe, and so was the price; or should I say equally unbelievable.
Enjoy the music. |
