I keep eyes on the various markets and haven’t ever seen any Koetsu bodies that would give me concern. I’ve had 6 Koetsu in my hands - about half from used market, some purchased new from dealer, most the the used ones have gone through rebuild via Koetsu Japan (who would have rejected counterfeits). I’m pretty certain a counterfeit (not just gray market; an actual counterfeit attempt) would look or feel quite weird in some way. The Koetsu bodies are very finely crafted.
I share concern in general about 2juki’s sources and practices, but not on the topic of Koetsu counterfeits.
What I do see is a lot of retipped Koetsu for sale! Sometimes just the tip, sometimes the whole cantilever. Sometimes this is NOT disclosed in the ad. You need to learn what these stylus mountings (and boron and joint pipe) should look like up close, and how to spot obvious 3rd party retips. Modern Koetsu uses a very clean interface fit, with (usually) minimal glue. The "mound of glue" mountings are not Koetsu. Vintage Koetsu aren’t as clean looking as modern, but still not a mound of glue. The mound of glue is a perfectly valid mounting technique btw, but it’s never been used by Koetsu. I believe Lyra’s diamond mountings look a lot like Koetsu’s - probably from the same Japanese supplier.
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@neonknight
Here’s my vintage Musashino Onyx, rebuilt by Koetsu a few years ago. Note the metal "shoe" on the side facing the record, with bulk of the glue used on other side. I’ve seen cleaner examples of this lol.
And here’s their diamond cantilever (also my pic). Very clean mount of diamond to diamond; minimal glue - but the bond to joint pipe is a bit more messy:
There was recently a Koetsu (Burma Jade) for sale that looked like diamond cantilever from afar but was really some 3rd party sapphire job that looked truly awful, even at much lower magnification.
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@neonknight
For comparison, here is a typical Benz (or Van den hul etc) mounting. You can usually spot this from much lower magnification. Only the very tip of the diamond pokes out from the glue! I’ve seen examples where so little tip is exposed you can hardly believe it tracks, but it does - only a very very tiny fraction of the diamond tip is reading the groove! Also my pic:
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Btw, thanks everyone for positive feedback on the pics and my experience with Koetsu :) I've been meaning to take more of my cartridge collection.
Nothing else quite does midrange like a Koetsu!
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So a quality 3rd party service provider like Expert Stylus is unable to retain the sole plate?
@neonknight
I’m not sure. I think it would be far easier to apply a whole new cantilever & stylus mounting (sourced from the Japanese supplier) to the joint pipe, rather than attempt to retip that same kind of mount to an existing boron cantilever.
Ana Mighty Sound in France had some excellent pics of their rebuild work on Koetsus, which looks EXACTLY like the standard Koetsu mount. I didn’t ask if they’d applied a whole new cantilever, but would assume so. They posted these pics to the Facebook "Koetsu Users" group (I’m a co-admin), and I would never have been able to tell the difference to a stock Koetsu (quite frankly theirs looked even cleaner), so it must be from the same supplier Koetsu uses.
Mainly I wanted to comment on your thread here to warn others I see a lot of obvious looking Koetsu retips out in the wild, and how to start identifying them! It absolutely affects resale value. If considering a 3rd party (in some scenarios, this could be a reasonable value proposition), ideally they would be able to provide detailed pics of their prior work on Koetsu.
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I have owned many Koetsu’s over the years and either bought new or used from reputable sellers. The rebuilds from Koetsu and Anna Mighty sound are the only way to go, I have had several Cartridges from Anna Mighty Sound and they are absolutely top notch in their care for rebuilds. I saw a Onyx stone body for sale on Audiomart recently and it was definitely messed with as the gold trim on the bottom was sourced from a standard rosewood cartridge, I asked about it and got no response, he sold it to some poor buyer that had no idea what he was getting. Be careful as some of the other comments earlier as there are a lot of retips out there being pawned off as stock cartridges
Absolutely - some of the hacked up Koetsus being pawned off - ugh, wish I could add comments to these ads. And yes, I too mentioned Ana Mighty sound, and I certainly didn't intend to denigrate them or lump them in with other 3rd party re-tippers. Though I haven't had a Koetsu done by them yet, the work they have shown is MOST impressive!
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A number of years ago I saw lots of K’s on Ebay with gold pins. At the time, all K came with silver pins, or so it seemed. Also some poorly made bamboo boxes. @mulveling would know if these were genuine.
@terry9 Some (most?) of the older Koetsus really did have gold pins. My vintage Musashino Onyx has gold pins - technically I think these were produced (in part or whole, not sure) by Musashino Audio Lab for Koetsu. Today, Koetsu treats them as Koetsu all the same.
For the vintage models, there are so many variations, that beyond a smell test you really need a Koetsu historian (more than me, I top out at "enthusiast" lol) to know what you’re wading into. Hearing that old Onyx for the first time is one of my top 3 most vivid audiophile memories - it was absolutely amazing, and I have no doubt it was 100% original, but alas its stylus was worn and it was showing very poor tracking performance on inner grooves! Now I have it as a hybrid of old and new style Koetsu (modern Onyx coils, cantilever, and stylus, but kept original magnets). I can tell you the modern Koetsu guts are much more detailed & punchy sounding, and the new Platinum magnets are smoother and warmer to balance that out. Ah, but those old coils surely did have some sweet magic in them.
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@macg19
Thanks! I tried my Jade on Clearaudio Universal 12" VTA - and that was quickly the end of further Koetsu experiments on the arm. Tracks and plays fine. It's just sonically very flat and dull. Definitely lacking sparkle. Jade is probably the worst Koetsu to match here, for that reason - similar to Coralstone, it's especially warm, even for a Koetsu. If I had to guess, I'd blame the carbon fiber wand more than the mass / compliance match. That Universal arm generally has a bit of a relaxed top end. It matches better to Ortofons, Benzes, and Shelter Harmony.
If I were to try Koetsu again on a Tracer (which looks like a really nice arm in its own right), since it has the carbon fiber wand I'd want samarium cobalt magnets (punchy) and the metal body of Black (I generally like metal bodies on cartridges). The Rosewood and Urushis also use samarium cobalt magnets and could be good, but honestly the Black seems like it could slot in really nicely there. Unfortunately I haven't heard these Koetsu models, but being somewhat familiar with the effect of magnet types and body materials, this would be my best guess!
If you want to scale up, a used Fidelity Research FR64fx in good condition ($1500) is hard to beat for a match to Koetsu. You'd just need an armboard, and I'm not certain if it could fit the Performance / Ovation's small circular armboard. Perhaps worth checking though. I really love these FR arms on my Innovation series tables. Not just for Koetsu, either. On Innovations and Solutions, the FR64fx fits (only just, but it does) on their standard Graham Phantom long / flat armboard. Also have the Graham Phantom II Supreme and it's really good sounding and a dream to setup, but dang I just like those FR arms.
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@scm
The pictures are of a legit Koetsu. Seller is in Japan, so you'll probably get a legit Koetsu. I thought the "Signature" model had the different body shape and metal cover with "lip" like the higher end Urushi & RSP, but it they might have made it like the standard Rosewood more recently - I'm not familiar with that part of the line.
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@mulveling....Nice catch on noticing the lack of the 'bump out' at the base of the cantilever shown in the picture 👍.
I let him know and told him to double check that he will be getting a Signature not a Standard Rosewood.
@scm They might have legitimately changed that, more recently. Koetsu has made little changes to production over the years, which sometimes makes it hard to parse out what's what. That's a real challenge for older Onyx models. And good luck predicting whether an Urushi will have smooth-bore or threaded mounting holes!
You can see the Rosewood Standards for sale from Japan have a very dry, light-colored looking Rosewood. Yours shows a dark, rich Rosewood color. So the way to distinguish *might* simply be a more selected piece of darker Rosewood. The Signature Platinum (which I do have) adds a light coat of clear lacquer, which makes its look richer and shinier versus the matte Signature and Standard models. The Platinums also always have a serial # that starts with "P" like "P356".
If the Japanese seller is adamant it's a "Signature" model, I'd be inclined to trust him.
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Ok some more sleuthing around and I found this:
https://www.koetsusea.com/The-Wood-Series.php
I`m inclined to believe that it`s a Standard according to the pictures.
@scm You should have your friend contact / email Koetsu S.E. Asia (Mel) directly and see if he has anything interesting in stock.
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