Now that Ive heard the Hattor warmed up, I agree totally that the P 5 is way overpriced, but it s price includes dealer margins: the Hattor does not, so while they are virtually the same MSRP, the Hattor has no frills and significantly better parts (and fewer parts): its no contest sonically
Have Passive Preamps Finally Come of Age?
Back in the late 90s (eons ago) I tried a variety of passive preamps (PPs). The most musical was an autoformer, but back then my system was not balanced. For the last decade I have been using active preamps, both tube and solid state, but finding a quality balanced preamp under $4K is damn near impossible. Enter the Parasound P5 (2.1), which in addition to having balanced I/Os, it has a separate bass management circuit (MSRP $1095), and I was hoping it would provide better control over the built in class D plates incorporated into my 2 SVS powered subs, whose volume controls are STUPIDLY sensitive: when barely cracked from zero they overwhelm. Alas, no bueno.
Recently i watched a PS Audio YT video that was emphatic about NOT connecting powered subs with interconnects; instead he recommends speaker cables piggybacked off the main systems amp/s. I had a spare set of DIY flat copper cables, and was shocked how much better they sounded, but doing so did not change the volume control problem and unfortunately this id not bypass the SVS amps whose class D chips are now ancient. Thinking there could be an impedance problem led me to revisit PPs.
I sold my P5 and was using the XLR outs from my Oppo 105 (upgraded power supply and IEC/wiring to the power supply) direct to my Emerald Physics 100.2SEs (class D). The noise floor dropped tremendously, allowing me a much better view into the music. My Core Power Technologies 1800 PLC had more than a little to do with this, but...
Days of PP research later, I came across LDRs, which seem like the ultimate PP option, but XLR versions are ~ $2K and up, with the Tortuga coming in at $2700, seems like a true SOTA bargain, just not in my current budget. Scouring the' for sale' sites I came across a Hattor XLR (MSRP $995) which was in my price range. Hattor's www had links to 2 reviews both were extremely positive: one used it in combination with a class D amp. Bingo! I snapped it up.
It arrived late yesterday, although Hattor's www pictures look awesome, they do not compare to seeing and touching it. The metal carrying case was an indication of the designer's dedication. This is an etremely well made piece of kit, but how does it sound? Alas it came with no manual and Hattor's site does not have a PDF. How hard can it be to hook up? Well, after a couple scary minutes, I discovered that it would not light up until I connected the 105.
Stone cold, the first thing that shocked me was a further reduction in noise floor and an incredibly wide and deep sound stage, but as can be expected, it was dry. Fingers crossed, in about a half hour I began to be rewarded with texture as well. Tis only got better as the night wore on
I hope somebody chimes in with their Tortuga experience, or any other high quality PP information.that goes under the reporting radar.
Recently i watched a PS Audio YT video that was emphatic about NOT connecting powered subs with interconnects; instead he recommends speaker cables piggybacked off the main systems amp/s. I had a spare set of DIY flat copper cables, and was shocked how much better they sounded, but doing so did not change the volume control problem and unfortunately this id not bypass the SVS amps whose class D chips are now ancient. Thinking there could be an impedance problem led me to revisit PPs.
I sold my P5 and was using the XLR outs from my Oppo 105 (upgraded power supply and IEC/wiring to the power supply) direct to my Emerald Physics 100.2SEs (class D). The noise floor dropped tremendously, allowing me a much better view into the music. My Core Power Technologies 1800 PLC had more than a little to do with this, but...
Days of PP research later, I came across LDRs, which seem like the ultimate PP option, but XLR versions are ~ $2K and up, with the Tortuga coming in at $2700, seems like a true SOTA bargain, just not in my current budget. Scouring the' for sale' sites I came across a Hattor XLR (MSRP $995) which was in my price range. Hattor's www had links to 2 reviews both were extremely positive: one used it in combination with a class D amp. Bingo! I snapped it up.
It arrived late yesterday, although Hattor's www pictures look awesome, they do not compare to seeing and touching it. The metal carrying case was an indication of the designer's dedication. This is an etremely well made piece of kit, but how does it sound? Alas it came with no manual and Hattor's site does not have a PDF. How hard can it be to hook up? Well, after a couple scary minutes, I discovered that it would not light up until I connected the 105.
Stone cold, the first thing that shocked me was a further reduction in noise floor and an incredibly wide and deep sound stage, but as can be expected, it was dry. Fingers crossed, in about a half hour I began to be rewarded with texture as well. Tis only got better as the night wore on
I hope somebody chimes in with their Tortuga experience, or any other high quality PP information.that goes under the reporting radar.
Showing 42 responses by tweak1
eric, you may be confused as to which Parasound is the worst. My first was the P 3: the P5 was clearly way above it, but nothing like the Hattor. From there, the only 2 channel upgrade would be the JC 2 @ $4K well out of my budget, even used We tend to expect one thnew thing to make our systems sing, when seldom will it work that way As to dryness, etc I find the opposite of bpoletti's comments. at least with the Hattor, which puts everything into fine focus with great speed, and timing. What IT is doing is ruthlessly exposing everything else, including the recordings. On many CDs, some songs are well recorded while others are downright awful. Jadedavid: The lack of soul was likely elsewhere (see my opening comment) When I initially connected the H, I used a $100 Cullen PC, and PS Audio XLRs. The next afternoon, I replaced the Cullen with a $300 WireWorld PC and Surf Cables XLRs (absolute bargain) , the sound immediately warmed up (instruments and voices much fuller bodied, and the music now has 'more' texture. I believe my lowest common denominators now are 1. My Emerald Physics 100.2 SEs (probably 2-3 generations old class D) 2. My Oppo 105 The amps will be the first to be replaced with a Nord stereo amp I considered the $2K++ W4S STP SE, but IMO it's butt ugly, with a tiny view screen. Very poor design, especially for the money |
Sorry erik! Yes it was meant for you. 213runnin. I started with the P 3 > then the P5 2.1 for the separate bass management circuit, which apparently does not interface with powered subs inputs. My plan all along was to eventually own a JC 2, but I could never put together enough money, even for the rare used one. after selling the P 5 I had to use my Oppo 105 direct outs to my amps, and began to see how colored the P 5 was. The light went off, so I revisited passives. I owned several passives some 15 years ago, but they didn't do it for me. But like class D amps, passives have come a long long way. The Hattor is a case in point. Pure dual mono XLR MSRP $995! |
jadedavid. Let me try being abstract, a female robot (aka fembots) might look like a real woman but have no soul, or spirit. Soul might be better known as PRAT https://www.bing.com/search?q=PRAT%20audio%20anacronym&pc=cosp&ptag=G6C999ACB2464B1B9&fo... hth |
With almost a week in use, and a wide variety of favorite music spun, the biggest issue I have is that it is doing it's job too well. In part, due to the lack of overdesign, and quality resistors, it ruthlessly exposes when recordings are subpar. Examples of well known artists: Dixie Chicks, John Denver, CSN, Dr John, all contain some excellent recordings as well as some really horrible ones. How can that be? Interesting coincidence, Paul McGowan posted a PP YT video yesterday |
Reading back through, I have a couple comments 1. I believe NPass is speaking to a perfect electronic interface world, which would necessitate building ones system around a PP, as opposed to trying to insert one into a active preamp system 2.. A quality PP, such as the Hattor, is a high powered microscope, exposing whether there is/are problems/issues elsewhere in the chain. I feel that my Emerald Physics amps are the next step in my progression, I am close to pulling the trigger on a Nord Two SE Power Amp (newest class D tech), and .I have the next model Emerald Physics Speakers (3.0) with cap upgrade and WireWorld internal wiring on the way (I think, as they were supposed to be hear almost 2 weeks ago) |
Thanks, I wasn't asking for myself as my Hattor Passive Pre is quite magical with my class D amps. But being such a clear window I think it exposed that my speakers or amps (or both) are not up to it. My EP KC IIs sound fantastic until pushed in my 19 X 36 x 12 open beam ceiling room; and I have 2 SVS Ultra subs! I am in high anticipation of receiving EP 3.0s with 12" compressed driver, which I hope adds sufficient lower mids/upper bass to compensate for the room |
Thanks George. While the combo sounds vg, there is something eating at me. Not sure whether it's the amps or the speakers. I own EP KCIIs, but bought a pair of demo EP 3.0s Alas, there have been weird issues involved in them being delivered. I have been keen on getting a Nord Two Stereo amp, but need to sell at least one SE first |
I just found this out reading my Hattor is a review. Scratching my head as George said my Hattor is not compatible impedance wise The guy responsible for the Khozmo passive also makes an upmarket version (ed Hattor) with super-duper resistors, balanced inputs and outputs, a balance control, a nice remote and a buffer circuit. |
a marriage made in heaven After waiting at home all freakin day for my Audio Alchemy DPA-1 stereo amp (had to sign), it showed up after 8pm. It only has ~ 100 hours, so a lot more break in awaits, BUT... OMGosh, after about an hour for my entire system to warm up (sold my EP 100.2SEs about 3 weeks ago) I am hearing a much more complete musical experience. Think early digital (Perfect Sound Forever) and today's high resolution digital Glimpses of being transported to the venue My Emerald Physics KCIIs never sounded so good, but they are FS as I await their replacements Im a very happy camper |
lartecafe "SHOULD BE SIMPLE"? First, my mnd is officially blown after replacing my Emerald Physics 100.2SE monos (with upscale fuses) with an Audio Alchemy DPA-1, (125w @ 8 ohms) Having 2 Gain options are crucial in my case; seems my Hattor Passive needs the extra 6db to come on song, otherwise, meh! I am told AAs preamp/dac sounds as good as Constellations 1.0 @ ~ $2700 with external power supply, which is said to be essential I suggest you read Absolute Sound reviews of the Constellation 1.0 Preamp ($9000); itself a lower cost version of their Inspiration preamp ($24000) and the Tortuga LDRXB passive $2695 vs the rest of the simplistic passive world. Not hatin, just sayin Replacing resistor ladders with LED light tech requires an entirely different (and more complex) approach to passives. It's hard or me to imagine being "that' must better than my Hattor, but.... LDRs are not the easiest components to work with notwithstanding their superior sonic qualities. Their challenges are twofold. First, the relationship between LED current (light intensity) vs. resistance is inherently nonlinear. Secondly, even with LDRs of a given make and model there's considerable variance in this nonlinear relationship from one individual LDR to the next. To implement a reasonable stereo attenuator with LDRs means you have to use 2 per channel. Given both their nonlinear behavior and individual variances, you soon realize that you first have to test each individual LDR and record its current vs. resistance curve. All of that data goes into our LDR database where at any point in time we usually have test results for over 100 LDRs which we haven't already used. We've developed sorting routines that process this data to tell us which next 4 LDRs are most closely matched. If we decide those 4 aren't sufficiently close, we'll test another 50-100 LDRs and add them to the database, then re-run the sort until we get satisfactory matches. So your advice is at best archaic, or limited to your investigations |
Your assumption that I am doing all this just for the Hattor is incorrect. And 'respectfully disagreeing' doesn't change the reality The changes were already in motion as I had sold my Parasound P5 preamp and had been using my 105 direct to the EPs for a couple months while I investigated preamps. Having owned the EPs for several years, it was time in class D years/advancements to upgrade My plan to get the Nord ended when I realized it has way too much power for 94 dB speakers, which are even more amazing with the DPA-1s ability to provide an impedance match with the push of a button. The Nord is made and shipped from the EU, auditioning is out of the question. The speaker upgrade was unexpected when a unique opportunity presented itself Of course I want to use the subs, BUT, AA owners manual specifically says not to piggyback off the DPA-1.. I am awaiting a reply as to why,. BUT.... the 3 D venue reproduction is so vast and the bass so strong with the AA that I don't miss the subs Anything else you want to be wrong about? |
George, your info would be spot on IF the AA did not have 2 gain options (I was unaware how valuable that is). I didn't try the base gain until late last night: where did the music go? I quickly reengaged the + 6dB and viola. Im a very happy camper again. And I am not abe to use (and not missing) my 2 SVS Ultra powered subs, which is more evidence of the EP/Hattor mismatch Eventually the Hattor will go to a new home, to be replaced by either an AA DDP-1 (but I don't need either the dac or the headphone circuit) and if the dac is better than in my Oppo 105 I'm guessing I would need to switch it in/out when listening to non SACD format:and if so, no bueno, but I think I can get one with power supply in the $1500 range. If so, I probably will. So far the Tortuga LDRxB is at the top of my wish list, but it's $2700. I could stretch to half that amount, but don't see that happening :(. I decided against the Nord for several reasons * it would take 3-4 weeks and I was music-less * it had tons more power than my 94dB KCIIs need to jump out of the speakers, and my new speakers are 96db * the AA was almost half of the Nord price Thanks again, though |
I have owned
tube amps (including OTLs), tube preamps and cd players within and as a part of all tube systems,. I have also owned class A and AB amplifiers. They were all compromises in some way. I like to listen during the day as background music as well as go to sleep listing to music, meaning system is on 24/7. Class D, at least at this level, and to my ears, is sonicly as good, and will last without tube reacements, Class A heat causing premature parts breakdown... The rst you can look up yourself, as you seem to have nothing better to do |
george, while these are both good suggestions "You have two options to get the best with what you have . 1:Send your Hattor back and get them to install the optional OPA2134 output buffer in into it, this will allow it then to drive the very low input impedance of the AA or the EP if you still have it. 2: Send the AA back and get a poweramp that has got higher input impedance 33kohm or higher" I live in Florida so sending the Hattor back is not gonna happen (no telling how long before he turned it around), plus, having seen the insides, I don't think it is upgradeable. I bought the AA used, so no sending it back either Fortunately, the combination sounds damned good, certainly good enough to wait it out to get either the AA DCA/PRE (which must be a match) or the Tortuga, assuming it is compatible. |
I look at at this and see a serious bit of kit, if you like tube sound.George, thanks, as usual you bring the good 411. I just emailed Arik (Hattor) as to whether the opamp can be installed . He's some 8 hour time difference, so maybe tomorrow Ill know more My kit is 100% balanced, I would think any XLR tube buffer would be $$$$$ + another XLR interconnect + power cord, so $$$$$++ I might be able to borrow an AA DAC/Pre, which would let me know how much better a pre built specifically to go with my amp will sound. Be great if the price to upgrade and turnaround time were acceptable to hace theeDAC/Pre that long |
George,
Arik is on holiday, but I managed to score a AA Dac/Pre at a price that I can easily flip when/if I get the Hattor OpAmp upgraded. Arik thinks I can do the parts upgrade here, but Im not that inclined as I don't have a high heat iron, or silver solder. Maybe he will send some solder. I should have the AA by mid week to finally hear my system without impedance mismatches |
George Hi tweak1 I am not sure if you referred to my review of the Nord Class D and Hattor preamp. I
Yes, that review is where I first learned of you, it motivated me to get the Hattor. I thought I had posted this but, I decided against the Nord Two because of the monster power. Sometimes I change discs and the output is crazy different: than the new disc BLASTS out so loud it scares me, and I run for the remote//mute. Then I got a deal on the AA amp for about half the price of the Nord, which you said is an even worse impedance match than my prior EP 100.2SEs, which sounded glassy in my system. Prior to the Hattor I had a Parasound P5 and was not thrilled FYI: I went all in on XLR decades ago. I asked Arek about the OpAmp you suggested, but he is on holiday. He suggested sending me the board with OpAmp, which I hesitate to do, but... Then an AA DAC//Pre came up at a price I couldn't resist. Better not be an impedance mismatch there. I should have it Thursday. I will use until I get the Hattor sorted out. Thanks again |
George said (7/15): It may sound good, but I don’t want to burst your bubble, you should have asked, if your still using your Hattor passive, you didn’t heed what I said about your EP 100.2 amp being only 19kohm input impedance, and not the best match for your Hattor passive. (How can I 'heed; when I don't know the right questions to ask? Impedance matching is new to me, and I am not a techie Now you confuse me by saying (7/25): Now we’re looking at what the Oppo can drive I don’t know the impedance of your Hattor or is attenuation method, series, ladder or shunt. so, how can you know it is/isn't the best match? " not the best match for your Hattor passive." Morten Sensor of Tortuga sheds some light on the subject of Passive V active in an article he wrote. Link on his www. |
To whom it may apply: "I" started THIS thread, NOT George. The impedance issue between my recently acquired Hattor XLR and my EP amps/ Audio Alchemy stereo amp has turned out to be a blessing. To get to the bottom of the impedance issues, I bought a AA Dac/Pre, not for the dac, but for the pre. I thought I was satisfied with my Oppo 105s internal dac for redbook. LOL My intention was to use it while I got my Hattor XLR fitted with the OpAmp George suggested, which was going to take some time and additional cost $350 + shipping, if I attempted it myself. AA: after 24 hours and the standard wall plug for power I was hearing music that finally combined detail with warmth. Late on day 2, I decided to connect my WireWorld Toslink cable (which I used between my Pioneer PD 65 (inverted platter), modded by Musical Concepts, with outboard PS as a transport to some dac, and I still have it!) so I could listen to SACD/DVD-A discs, but first I compared the AA redbook dac to my 105, which was spinning Tony Bennett Duets. WOW, warm, texturally rich music,bordering on 3D, at least when the music was easy, less so when the music is complex. I reread the Absolute Sounds review, which tried the wall wart briefly, then inserted the PS 5 outboard power supply to complete the review.. So Im on a quest to locate one Back to my Hattor: If I move forward (and I might as it is dual mono wit better separation) it means I also need to add a dac and another power cord and use the Oppo as a transport, or use the 105 for SACD/DVDs only and my Pioneer to the AA internal DAC. Of course all that takes money, and by the time I add it up I am within reach of the Tortuga XLR.. FYI Morten says he will have a ss opamp soon Will someone please make me an offer I can't refuse for my Hattor?. |
The reason behind my question had to do with better design and higher quality parts making for a better end product than in ages gone by In my case, the missing ingredient was not understanding the importance of impedance matching in order for them to get along with the amplifier/s. This tidbit alluded me then and now, as electronics is foreign to me |
All prior comments were when using my Oppo 105 either direct for SACD/DVD-As, or as a transport, after getting the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC/PRE A couple days ago I decided to dust off my Pioneer PD 65 CD player (inverted platter) Stage 3,modified over a decade ago by Musical Concepts; with outboard power supply: it is a CD player with optical output After a brief warmup, the music is so much richer, adding texture to the entire musical spectrum My Hattor does not provide for toslink, so it was a good thing I bought the AA DDP-1, or I would have never known what I was missing with the Oppo Hattor definitely going up for sale now |
SE > XLR (at least true dif balanced XLR is a band-aid. The only ture measure is to use dif balanced to dif balanced. Now a current update... Prior to buying the full Stellar set I was using a Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 power supply, which made a HUGE difference I asked PS Audio why they didn’t offer an outboard PS for the preamp, which they did to at least 2-3 of my prior PS preamps I wanted to keep the stack as all Stellar products, BUT... I was listening to Dave Brubeck Alone Solo Piano which has a lot of strong attacks. They were all fuzzy as hell Coincidentally, I read a update to Tortuga Passive pre where they doubled the wall wart PS to great effect I still have my AA DDP-1 (dac/pre)+ PS 5 (MSRP $1995 + $695) I decided to reinsert it last night, but not play the Brubeck disc until this morning to allow the AA time to stabilize Well, huge improvement in low end grunt and texture, but also cleared up 95%+ of the fuzziness I think a Mk II is in order including optional outboard PS |