Hevac1, sounds like education to me, trust you meant the formal version.
Marqmike, thanks for the great story. I have a good grasp of the "History of Western Civilization" if I do say so myself.
I'm positive I would not enjoy Classical music nearly as much without it. |
I never heard a lick of Classical Music growing up or even knew what it was,or went to school past 8th grade and that in a hick town to be kind about it.
I was in the Naval Hospital in Oakland after being wounded in Korea, which was condensed hell. One day some USO ladies came around with tickets and transportation to the San Francisco Symphony for the "walking wounded" .
I really did not even know what that was but anything was better than being in there. The program was Ravels Bolero
and a Tchaikovsky symphony.
The contrast between evil I had seen,and done, and the light was so great it literally flipped my soul 180 and lead to a totally different life than I otherwise would have led.
Humans are integrated beings, you can come to things emotionally as I did or/and intellectually .What Martin Luther said about Music are some of the wisest words ever uttered. |
Map, very well put !
Pagwan2b, you hit the nail a mighty blow right on the head.
Qualities emerge in human gatherings that are not present in any one individual, both good and bad.
When we are in the presence of a great soul, like a Rostropovich leading us towards the light, it is literally divine. |
Nope, you want to be uplifted or you don't. |
Brownsfan, I like some Stravinsky, "Dunbarton Oaks", L'histoire du soldat"and others.
His Cantata on Old English Texts is a masterwork. Ditto Mahler. In Music i look for pieces that lead me to my goal,
which is clarity of thought and peace of mind. That doesn't mean a piece of has to be soft and lyrical ,but for me, bombastic music is counter-productive.For others may be just the thing.
The only composer I really dislike is Wagner , loathe is more like it, IMO took one to know one when Adolf and Co. raised him to an idol. And yes I know bad people can write
good music, but there is a limit.
I don't think its sooo complicated why music changes. A composer has to make a living , when the powers that be relied on the Church as a legitimizer you got religous music. Breaking with the old order you got Beethoven. When nationalism was the agenda you got Sibelius. When you no longer need half-the population for anything other than consumers you get music that encourges navel-gazing etc etc etc At the MOST general level of analysis
its always follow the money. Of course there are many levels of analysis in social science just as in psychics or chemistry. |
Musicians come from a different place than most listeners.
Classical Music is very important to me ,esp.since I can no longer pursue other great interests I once had had like hunting and hiking.
But at the end of the day, as much as I love it. its both an end in itself and a means I use to get both pleasure and a feeling that I'm closer to god by bathing in beauty on a daily basis. I read the Copland book , it was interesting and all but superfulous to my needs, its like telling you how your phone works . I don't care, I just want to make a call. And I'm the only one who knows who I want to call.
To a musician its his craft and or/obcession which is as it should be. Without the cook. nobody eats.
A serious musician is one of the few jobs truly worth doing . |
If you love Classical music as much as I do, over 40 years of listening you pick up the elements and forms of music by yourself, not to mention reading 5k liner notes .
A love of Sibelius leads you to the current treasures pouring out of Finland etc etc.
The greatest advantage of auto-didactism is you own the knowledge you have, the obvious drawback is it takes more time.
All in all, for all but the most intellectually curious, NO put-down intended, the path laid done by Frogman is the most reasonable.
As in all things human , in the end love does conquer all. |
Frogman, my next-door neighbor in Berlin was a stay at home Mom, who was also a gifted clarnetist and grad of the Berlin Hochschule of Music .
She subbed in about every ensemble in Berlin, including the Philharmonic. Through her I ocassionaly got to listen in on social conversations between top musicians. I once heard a 1st Chair in the greatest band in the world say he liked to play classical music but not listen to it. His hero seemed to be Muddy Waters ! |
There is a "used to be " well-known tome titled " The Thriteenth Greatest of Centuries " by one James J. Walsh , that lays out the Gothic claim out in a masterful manner. |
Tosta, your 10 times rule is dead brilliant ! |
I have, thousands of them.. That's how I found what is best.
Special thanks to Cicero, Augustine, Hildegard of Bingen. Julian of Norwich, Luther , Tolstoy ,Kodaly and Andre Previn. |
Who knew, I thought God did that. Learn something every day. |
The greatest of the Romans and one of THE wisest humans who ever lived, Cicero, said;
"Not to know what has transpired in former times is to be always a child."
Children are easier to control than adults which is why History is both the sine qua non of an educated person AND the worst taught subject in the USA.
Even as a former history teacher and avid reader of same for over 60 years, I never quite realized until this post how my mind automatically put me into the milieu of music heard, from the Renaissance Italy of Frescobaldi , the England of Purcell and Byrd, to the Biedermeyer Vienna of Beethoven and Schubert , the Bismarkian Germany of Brahms or the dismembered Hungary of Bartok etc etc etc.
What Frogman says about the general public not grasping the difficulty of performance is of course true, but I would say same is readily apparent to any serious classical listener.
IMO the not really liking to perform has more to do with the cognitive dissonance generated by living in a culture radically different than the one the works you play were created in and for. And two semesters of Music History at any conservatory or university won't change that.
Even more true of the audience for Classical Music. |
You would have to be dead to go to a thousand Classical concerts and not grasp how hard it is for and on a performer.
Any human can grasp anything human if they wish to expand the time and effort of mind and heart to do so. As Blake said, "the world in a grain of sand" .
I've done 50 mile forced marches carrying 70 pounds packs and a ten pound rifle in 100 degree temperatures and poured
an inch of blood out of my boots at the end . Thats hard.
I do not doubt you can grasp that just from that sentence.
When I said 2 semesters of Music History ,I really wanted to say 24 Semesters .
I totally disagree with you and Ellington, IMO Classical Music
is the absolute apex of Western Civilization and no other genre can begin to approach the greatness of something like Bach's Mass in B Minor.
I may have to move to Japan where they agree with me. |
Coming from my perspective, that of a Christian, the best is that which leads you closer to the divine reality in a manner that makes you profoundly grateful that God inspired the great soul who created it ,and that you got to hear it and were lead closer to him by it.
Bach's Cantatas being the a prime example.
In the case of the very greatest composers of religious music, like Bach or Monteverdi, it seems as if God infused them rather than inspired them.
There has NEVER been a good war or a bad peace.
The USA has never been in a war that could not have been prevented. God is not pleased that anyone is a soldier.
If you haven't killed anyone personally, don't bother to correct me on this point. |
Walk before you run?
Ain't going to win many races starting from a swamp.
Germany, like the USA, has no shortage of ignorant people.
If I ask the recovering addict, 8th grade drop-out painting
my room in WI if he listens to Beethoven the reply likely will be, I don't listen to that crap.
If I ask the 8th grade drop-out recovering addict in Germany painting my room ,who knows no more about LvB than his american counterpart, the reply will likely be ahh, Beethoven , a great man.
Makes a LOT of difference. |
Photon,
There is nothing good about being a soldier, I used that example only to say we all can relate to things difficult as a basic trait of our humanity.
My sole point is that relativism is dry rot of the mind and soul.
Some things are better than other things, you do not have to like the best, or support the best ,but you need to know it is the best.
James Brown IS dumbing down .So is Van the man, though I listen to "Brown Eyed Girl" at times for reasons best not described on here, I'm aware its appealing to my baser side. |
Got to love all these old testament quoters who seen oblivious
that Jesus came and died so that, among other things, soldiers would vanish from the earth.
Not to mention the Holy Spirit hasn't been on vacation the last 2,000 years. |
