****Take Berg, Schoenberg, and Webern****
I wish someone would.
******but I find their intellectual rigor and organization to be fascinating and very enjoyable.*******
what does 'intellectual rigor and organization' mean?
Cheers |
*****Rok2id, I presume you've tried Berg's op. 1 piano sonata, his Lyric Suite and his violin concerto and found them lacking?******
I do not own anything by Berg, except LULU. I did not like LULU, but I may grow into it later. So I am not in any way being critical of Berg.
I did find a youtube of his piano sonata op. 1, played by Hamelin. I did not find it lacking. But on the same page I found him playing Liszt and Mendelssohn, which I liked better.
You guys all seem to be well versed in classical music, so can anyone explain the DIFFERENCE between the old stuff and 20th Century Classical music. Why does it sound different. What changed?
The Berg piece: I could not detect or distinguish the beginning the middle or the end. If he had played the music in reverse order, I am not sure I would have noticed. Of course this could all be a result of my musical limitations.. Maybe I just don't have the ear for the intellectual aspect of the music.
Cheers |
Mapman:
Your response sounds right to me. I remember that a lot of Artist, Musicians, Poets and Writers, actually fought in the First world war. And some died. That war had a tremendous impact on Europe that is not appreciated today. And all the causes of the second world war began in the first world war.
And of course the most Influential Music Critic of all time, Stalin, shaped music in Russia / Soviet Union. A bad review there could be fatal!! One man changed the course of music???
Thanks for the input.
Cheers |
***** I am not being condescending here*****
Of course you are!!! hahahahah But, you wouldn't be the Learsfool we all know and respect, if you weren't.
Cheers |
*****it really is difficult to discuss music without using musical terms*****
Now, this is very true. If I knew the correct terms, to express my thoughts, You and certain other people would not be so 'condescending' toward Moi. :)
Does Copeland's book explain Music, or HIS Music? I think I will buy the book just to prove a point. That is this: Knowledge will not make you like music that you currently don't like. To think otherwise, is to think that all I need to do, to fall in love with Philip Glass, is to read his book! Like, once he explains that nonsense, I will shout, AHA!!!!
I am always sort of suspicious of Music that has to be 'explained'.
One other thing that might factor into this thread is this: Should Music created, and Composers that Composed, in The 'Age of Hype',(mass media etc...), be scrutinized more closely?
Cheers |
*****Rok, Mapman and Brownsfan have made good stabs at answering your question. However, if you really want to understand the changes in music over time, you need to understand more about music in the first place*****
They didn't say anything I didn't understand. I felt Mapman nailed it. I agree with him. I have always said, 'music IS history'. Sometimes we make things more difficult than they have to be.
Anything that involves Humans, will change with time. Even the most resistant of all, Religion!
Cheers |
Seems to me as if posts on this thread are confusing formal
music education with the historical background of musical
compositions.
There is the historical background of music, i.e. 'when',
'where' and by 'whom', and under what 'circumstances'. I
love knowing this.
And then there is the technical, academic, intellectual, and
formal training / educational aspects of the music. These
would focus on the 'How' and 'why'. Dare I say, Nuts and
Bolts. :) The composers intent?
Very nice to know, as is all knowledge, but not essential to
the enjoyment of music.
The historical stuff is not essential either, but I find
that part the most meaningful to me.
Of c |
*****Some things are better than other things, you do not have to like the best, or support the best ,but you need to know it is the best.*******
How does a person determine what is the best musicaL genre? What methodology??
*****There is nothing good about being a soldier*****
You just better thank the Lord we have them!
*****James Brown IS dumbing down******
Nope. Brown just went places you could not follow.
And speaking of going places, I think the posters on this thread are going places they are not qualified to go.
Cheers. |
******Rok2id, nothing wrong with people having less than fully informed opinions about art forms they are a fan of.*****
Whew! Am I glad to hear that. Now, please tell it to The Frogman and Learsfool!!!
Cheerrs |
As far as expanding a person's listening tastes (likes / dislikes), Maybe 'Exposure' would be a more appropriate word than 'education'.
I think most people are exposed to music as opposed to being educated about music. Can you dislike a certain music even after being educated about it? I say absolutely. But you cannot stop liking music you love, even after being educated about it.
I feel the education thing is just nice to know. Of course COMPOSERS are exempt from this theory. :) They are the creators and have an entirely different perspective.
Cheers |
Soldiers? Check out the Old Testament! I don't like to talk religion, I'm just saying. :)
Cheers |
*****I would submit to you that the reason the German kid says what he does is indeed education,*******
I would say it's because Beethoven was German.
Cheers |
*****What I do not understand is the folks who are obviously afraid that educating themselves more about music is somehow going to decrease their emotional enjoyment of it******
This 'accusation' was made long ago, not by Learsfool, and went unchallenged at that time. Now, as in politics, it has become Fact! It does not apply to any poster I have read. Certainly not to me.
I only suggested that having formal instruction in music is not a prerequisite to the enjoyment of music.
I would suggest that this applies to the vast majority of the people that support classical music in this country. Including those that give financial support to the arts.
I would also suggest that the major advantage a 'musical educated' person has over the layman, is the musical vocabulary. They don't hear it any differently, or are affected by it, any more than the layman, they can just talk about what they are hearing, using the correct words. They know the terminology.
They may know how the 'sausage' is made, but anyone can enjoy the taste.
Cheers |
Photon46:
Nice clip. I learned what a Canon is, and I thank you for that. I think we do not have any disagreement about all this. It could be just that, in previous posts, on a different thread, on this subject, we were talking pass each other because our words mean different things to us. Not so much you, because you are new to this 'discussion'. :)
I do not disagree with anything you have said. Did I enjoy the piece by Bach more after reading the narrative and watching the animation? I am not sure 'enjoy more' would be the words I would use.
After looking up the meaning of the word 'canon' as used in music, I would say I have gained new knowledge about music, and that is good. I now have a new word in my musical vocabulary. Something to watch for in the linear notes.
The wiki gave a few examples of canons. Popular songs sung by children. Never would have known to call them canons. Getting back to the terminology thing.
I often listen to music and say to myself, "I wonder what they call that?" Referring to a certain section of a score, or a style of playing.
But, you are correct. I will never again listen to Bach quite the same way. Sort of like, I now listen for Bass Intonation in Jazz recordings.
Cheers |
Photon46:
I put the book in my CART. Thanks for the tip. My bookcase currently is filled with books about music and war / military, so I know I will like it.
One of my favorite books "The German Way of War", has a section on 'The Orgins of Frederician Warfare'. Very interesting. Brings home the point that Geography is Destiny!
Cheers |
A music question:
I think about this a lot. What is the difference between a first chair violinist in any of the world's top Orchestras, and a person that makes a career as a violin soloist.
I assume a solo career would be more rewarding from both an artistic and financial perspective.
I am not aware of any situation where a player 'moved up' from Orchestra to solo career. What's holding them back? Could anyone talk about this?
Thanks
Cheers |
Brownsfan:
Judging by the lastest crop of players, in addition to personality, beauty does not hurt either. It never does. :)
Frogman:
Thanks for another point of view.
Cheers |
Brownsfan:
Just so happens that two of my most recent acquisitions 'Beethoven's Piano Trios vols 1 & 2' feature Lynn Harrell, Itzhak Perlman and Vladimir Ashkenazy.
Cheers |
