Sean,
Thanks for the reply. I agree with you. We have tried various preamps (solid state and tube) and while the preamps have made a significant difference in the character of the sound overall, the differences between source components remains minimal (as described above).
We have been using vaarious high end cables/preamps and amplifiers.
Interesting to note here that with "cheap", sub $1000 preamps, it was simple to notice differences in source components.
As the quality and "performance" of the rest of the system increased, the impact made by various source components seemed to diminish, hence a 100 DVD player seemingly sounds as good as a 15,000 CD player in nearly every way.
Could it also be that the max resolution of the speakers has been acheived?
The speakers being used are Dynaudio Consequence. They are the flagship speaker which preceeded the 90K Evidence. ...So I seriously doubt this theory...
Even if the speakers were maxed out, it seems that soundstage depth, width, etc would change with various players.
What else could cause this?
Have you ever experienced a similar situation? |
Tom - good idea. I might try that!
Mike - I kind of agree with you about my friends CD player - its cost and how it "doesn't necessarily" sound better than a less expensive CD or DVD player. But I have to tell you, he wouldn't have purchased it if it didn't sound better.
I feel our choices in interconnects have been well thought out and most systems of this caliber do not use low end components anywhere. One thing this auditioning has enlightened us to is how much the Hydra colors the sound of the system. While we like it on source components, it is too much for the whole system. A haze develops - similar to the sugar coated sweetness common to Acoustic Zen Silver Reference ICs.
Drubin, We were doing A/B switching but NOT back and forth immediately - rapidly. We listened extensively to each source.
What kills me here is with a LOW QUALITY preamp, we are able to hear the difference between the CD players. With a very high-end or even a decent preamp, the difference between the players diminishes. Seems like the better the preamp the less the character of the source matters.
We are using (and rotating) a combination of Valhalla Interconnects, NBS Statement, and Stealth PGS. Speaker cables are AudioNote AN-SPz Kondo. PC's have been Shunyata KC v1 and NBS Statement on source. Electraglide FatMan 2000 K's on Pre and Amps. |
Sean - thank you for the wisdom. I do not believe we are taking anything for granted or making any presumptions based upon price or brand for cables. Each component and each cable was purchased one-at-a-time based upon synergy and what it gave (or in some cases took) to the system.
The inability to determine various source components from one another has very little to do with synergy at this point. In fact, it has more to do with the validity of this practice of high end audio and system building all together.
Which is why I have called it the "impasse" it seems like the system has been built out to its maximum potential.
In fact, it sounds like a 100K system regardless of source component. SACD's do not sound any better than regular CD's. I know it's strange but this is where we are.
This person first used B&W N 805 speakers and Krell KAV components prior to slowly upgrading and hence building his 100K system. Each step along the way made significant improvements - now it seems that nothing can improve on the system. Certin components only ad color (Hydra) but lend nothing to the musicality of the performance - the clarity - the micro/macro dynamics, liquidity, etc.
Sean, I would have to agree that perhaps the better preamps are somehow enabling the weaker sources and in effect diminishing capabilites of the better sources upstream. This is the only real explaination for what we have experienced. Somewhere there is a "coating" being applied that limits some sources and benefits others.
This impasse seems even more impassable right now. |
Detlof - this might be something we should try. At least it will help us to determine the bottle neck - if any. And you may be correct. We could have been listening too much lately - and become burnt out.
Drubin - CORRECT! SACD's sound almost exactly like the regular CD. In fact in most cases, the regular CD (un-remastered) sounded slightly better than the SACD version.
For instance, the degree that the 15K cd player is better than the $900 SACD player is virtually the same if the SACD is playing a SACD or a redbook CD. AND - if the SACD player is playing a SACD compared to the redbook player with a normal CD.
Likewise, the 100 DVD player sounds only marginally different (better or worse is difficult to determine) than the 15K CD player or the SACD player (with both formats).
This simple test is what has me stumped. It seems that regardless of source component or software, the system has reached a level of resolution with its preamp/amp/cables that cannot be outdone or even altered by the source component. I hesitate to think there is a "bottle neck" but what else could it be?
The easiest and most noticable difference between the various CD (DVD/SACD) players in the past has been the size of the sound stage. Playing the Sony caused the soundstage to collapse dramatically when compared to the 15K cd player.
It took less than a second to hear the difference as it was not subtle.
For whatever reason - now there seems to be no difference. My gut tells me that something we did to improve other areas of the system - somehow adds dimension to the less expensive CD players but doesn't seem to benefit the more expensive CD player as much.
Dont get me wrong - the system sounds fantastic. I am simply in a quandry as I try to figure out why there isn't a more dramatic change in character between the various source units and software.
Detlof may have the answer. Maybe it's those darn Dynaudio's but they are simply one of the finest speakers in existance. 5 way design which ranges from a super tweeter - tweeter - dome midrange - midrange/midbase - dual 10' bass drivers. This speaker should play anything which is thrown at it and if it is the bottle neck, I would be very, very, very, surprised.
Argh!!! This is making my head hurt! |
Madisonears - I have been using an AudioMeca Mephisto II CD player myself which is better than Sony SCD-1, Marantz SA-1 100% of the time on redbook vs SACD.
I think that my friends Linn CD12 should be capable enough of a CD player to sound better than a 100 DVD player don't you? Or do you really think I should buy a 2000 cd player to accompany the 1000 Sony? Do I need a fleet of CD players? It seems that my friend has his bases covered with the Three players currently in his home.
This is not a matter of an outrageously expensive component not being worth its cost but is more akin to maxing out a system or perhaps taking it to a level which it cannot surpass or cannot be surpassed I guess.
I mean - one must ponder, how good can sound, sound? Where does it end? Does it? Or do gains in system performance just go on forever? |
Pooguy - the comparison has been made with Linn CD12, AudioMeca Mephisto II, Electrocompaniet EMC-1 MK II, Marantz SA-1, Sony 9000ES DVD/SACD/CD, Toshiba $100 DVD player and they all sound quite similar on my friends system. However each unit will sound different on my system - easy to determine & never subtle.
Amps we have used in the past month include Pass Labs X350, Conrad Johnson Premier 8A, McIntosh MC500. Preamps have been Conrad Johnson ART, Supratek Syrah, Electrocompaniet 4.5, Krell HTS, Sony 9000ES.
With the Electrocompaniet and Sony, we could tell the difference between the source components. With the Supratek and ART, everything sounds very good (no matter what source). With the Krell HTS-2 bass is substantially improved and highs get harsh.
We even used an Oracle Turntable vs. The AudioMeca Mephisto and the while the Mephisto sounded better, the difference was minimal - very minimal.
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Poorguy - the Supratek Syrah is a preamp. |
Poorguy - As I stated in a previous post, we compared a digital source to an analog source and the difference was very simlar to the difference between various digital sources - nearly nothing. I don't think you are understanding the problem here. |
Asa - thanks for the response. The ART and Syrah are VERY close. Both are extremely liquid and wonderful - but I think the ART has a bit better bass than my Syrah - we haven't had time to do a fair comparison between the two since we have been more focused on the source components which all sound the same.
This is mind blowing and its making us second-guess all the decisions we've made in the past.
Just this morning however, my friend noticed a spark fly between his RCA interconnect and the RCA input on the CJ P8A as he changed interconnects. Shortly thereafter, he saw lots of smoke. Once he shut off power, and removed the interconnects, he found one of his Stealth PGS cables to be 2 1/2 inches shorter and burnt through to the outer mesh. The outer mesh actually changed color from a golden yellow to a crusty brown.
Initially, we thought it was the amp, we did some testing and discovered the wall outlet to be broken - it was cracked inside.
Something tells me the source components will start sounding like themselves again once the power problem is fixed.
An electrician is on the way!
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My friend had two new dedicated circuits installed. So far there has been no smoke or fire. The electrician wired his system with 10 gague Romex strung to a pair of PS Audio Power Port AC recepticals. I have not listened yet but he claims this made a modest difference regarding the bandwidth of his amplifiers. He says the system seems "cleaner" but still notices no significant differences between source components. Bummer. |
This evening we removed an AZ power cord from the preamp.
We had forgotten it was back there.
Anyhow - when we removed that power cord from the preamp and replaced with an NBS Statement, things started to open up. We were beginning to hear differences between the CD12 and the $100 Toshiba DVD player. Actually - we heard significant differences. It's amazing how that power cord really disguised things.
Another thing I noticed in this recent audition of many preamps is that the more liquid the preamp, the less inner detail seems to be resolved. Has anyone else ever noticed that? Presuming liquidity is textureless sound, inner-detail often presents itself with a slight texture.
Differences in various CD players are at times subtle but I have found that the best CD players have a certain way of presenting inner-detail which is better than low end CD players. For instance, my Mephisto II is as analog sounding a CD player as one could hope to get (tonight it bested the CD12!) But most of those characteristics take form within the domain of inner-detail.
The liquidity of a good tube preamp seems to diminish the texture required to present the inner-detail hence removing the character of the CD player and thus making it more difficult to notice subtle differences.
I figure this is why the cheap solid state preamps were capable of conveying more of each CD players true character.
The flip side of this is that the cheap CD players which typically sound hollow, have limited focus, are harsh or electronic sounding, benefit tremendously from the better preamp as it will mask the nasties with liquidity.
Make sense? |
I spent the better part of the afternoon at my friends house and I can say that with the new dedicated power supplies (one for analog another for digital)... his system has transformed.
Earlier this week we were disappointed by the poor bass performance from tube preamps vs. a Krell HTS home theater processor. Today - I take those gripes back. The Supratek Syrah preamp has better bass (and more realistic) than any of the other preamps I have tried thus far. While it is still liquid and involving, with adequate power, it was ultimately better detailed (GOBS of inner-detail) and portrayed the music in a way I have never heard before. This really makes me want to upgrade to the Cortese since it must be the only preamp out there which can beat the Syrah. The ART is a good preamp but seemed so...dull and lifeless by comparison.
Once again the differences between sources are now VERY easy to detect. I feel almost ashamed of myself for questioning the equipment or the validity of my past decisions.
The problem in this case was not my ears, it was however the simple lack of power. |
Cornfedboy and Detlof - you both are quite welcome. I appreciate all the help I received from you and others during this difficult time. I swear, I was on the verge of giving up audio all together. This endeavor really tested my faith. And to think... as a result of my friends experience, I seriously debated selling my system, in favor of a 5.1 channel receiver based home theater system. Yikes!! :)
So... let me thank you all for saving my faith, system, and friend!!! |
Mark, yes - I have the KSL's in my system and I am enjoying them tremendously. The KenRad Black Glass tubes sound fantastic but admittedly, I didn't spend much time with the stock Zenith 6SN7's so I cannot make a fair comparison. I am still hunting for a GZ32 (mullard) and look forward to what it adds to the already outstanding capabilities of the Supratek.
I am holding off on power conditioning/filtering components until I get a dedicated outlet (or two) installed. |
