Harbeth C7 vs Proac D25 Review


Hi folks. As some of you may know I've been on the hunt for an attractive pair of floorstanders to replace my Compact 7's. I've recently had the opportunity to plug a pair of D25's into my system and wanted to share the results. Rest of the gear is a VPI Scout/JMW9 arm and Dynavector 20XH feeding an ARC SP16 into a ARC 100.2. CD player is a Rotel 971. Cables by Ridge Street Audio, Wireworld and Naim on the speakers. The room is 22 X 14 X 9 opening into an 11 X 11 on the short wall where the speakers are located. I've had the Proac's set up for about a week and have listened to a variety of music from rock to chamber to jazz.
First of all, some might question putting the $2650 C7 against the $5500 D25. First, the D25 is in the price range of where I want to be in any upgrade. Second, over the past year or so of my search the C7's have proven themselves easily able to compete with speakers costing two or three times their retail price. Both are two ways in vented boxes so here too the comparison is apt.
First, let me say that the D25 was surprisingly good. I heard them at a dealer some time ago and was disappointed by their sound--though suspected the room was hurting their performance. I was right. I'll just run down a list of comparisons and talk about both in the process.

The D25 is a more revealing speaker. I hear details in my recordings that I've never encountered. For example, in "Nightblindness" off of David Gray's "White Ladder" as the song fades there is an industrial sounding backbeat that I've never heard with the C7's. I could give many more examples. Inner detail and instrumental lines are clearer on the D25's.

The high frequency response of the D25 is among the best I've heard. Natural, vibrant and airy. The Harbeth is slightly rolled off and less airy by comparison. Soundstaging of the D25 is more precise. Instruments are more surgically placed and there is greater depth and width. The Harbeth's provide what I would say a more natural presentation--more like what you would hear live where instruments blend together to make up the entire sonic picture.

The bass of the D25 is surprisingly deep. It is also rather ill defined. I'm no expert but it seems to me this speaker would sound a lot better if the designer rolled the bass off around 35hz. The speaker is rated down to 20hz and in attempting to go so low there is a loss of speed, detail, pace and timing. This is more apparent on some recordings than others. What I hear, no matter how I have positioned them in my listening area, is a bump at the bottom that thickens the sound and muddies what resides above in the frequency spectrum. I'm not saying the bass is whooly and awful--I just think the performance in this area could be better. The Harbeth's don't go as deep and, while not particularly tuneful, do play the bass line better than the D25's.

The D25's are more clinical/analytical sounding than the Harbeth's. While I would not call them dry or hard sounding the D25's do not provide the rich and palapable midrange that the Harbeth's have. This is where the Harbeth's are (maybe) unbeatable. Voices and acoustic instruments simply sound REAL. Not so with the D25--you are still listening to a hifi system--albeit a good one. If you are thinking of the D25 I would definatly run them with tubes all the way around. Be careful with cables as well. Think warm, warm, warm with every ancillary. I've heard speakers that are clearly cooler and more analytical (the Thiels come to mind) but the Proacs do not seduce you the way the Harbeth's will.
In addition, the Proacs are more accurate to the recording. If the recording sucks, so does the sound. The Harbeths, on the other hand, tend to sound good with even bad recordings. They just sound better as the quality of the recording improves. Also, the Harbeth's could really care less what you put in front of them--they sounded good when I had a cheap Japanese receiver and cd player in front of them before I put together a better rig. The Proacs, it seems to me, have a very neutral response and therefore require considerable attention (and money?) to other components in the chain. I'm not saying my gear sucks but perhaps the D25's could get better results with some really serious tube electronics driving them. At times I heard a hardness or glare in the upper midrange that was off putting. The Harbeth's have a mild suckout in this range designed into the speaker and, while not absolutely neutral, I prefer this deemphasis.

At the end of the day while I found the D25's "technically" superior in that they had more boxes checked in the columns, the Harbeth's are my preference. When I listen to the D25's I'm thinking hifi. When I listen to the Harbeth's I'm thinking MUSIC. If they were the same price I might consider the D25's--they really do sound quite good. However, at half the price the Harbeth's retain my personal title as best value in audio today.

Hope this helps somebody out there. Go ahead and fire away.

Oh yeah, one final thing. While at the dealer a while back I also heard the D38. It struck me as MUCH better than the D25 and well worth the extra money. While the room still sucked, the bass of the D38 was much better defined and controlled. It had greater impact but less bloom and bloat. The soundstage was far larger and the D38's created a greater sense of realism in this regard. The rest of my comments about the D25 would apply to the D38. Essentially I found the D38 more convincing than the D25 and closer to that essential musicality that the Harbeth's have in spades.
128x128dodgealum
Interesting review...
It is clear that you like sound that Harbeth Compact 7ES-2 is producing very much. For me that is part of the problem since you like IMO old fashion british sound. Cabinet that is contributing to the final sound is part of C7 design. Harbeth is even taking different path with new NRG line.
Spendor also( S8e might be interesting for you ) with S-e line. I am talking here from almost first hand experience since my father owns same C7 as you. To me Proac Response D25 is superior speaker and I don't think they are perfect. D38 is good also but, D80 is a lot better than both D25 or D38. I liked old romantic british sound some 18 years ago when I bought my first pair of speakers( Spendor ) but, not any more. Musicality is also IMO very personal definition... I found out that even when I am talking with my friends about musicality we are not talking allways about same thing. This is not a critic of your review, just different opinion. My 'office' system: Dynaudio Special25-ARC VT50-ARC REF1-Esoteric DV50s
Happy listening!
Very well thought out, Mark! I figured I'd throw some thoughts in here, since I was the prior owner of these D25's.

I think you have hit the salient points about the D25 very well. ProAc has taken a more neutral route as of late, and as such the "D" series has taken on a less warm and more analytical character. This is only in comparison to older ProAc's, though, as I still find the "D" sound to be quite warm and musical... But you do have to match the equipment very carefully.

The D25's do indeed sound much better when driven with an all-tube chain (but I have a few caveats here I'll get to). I intially auditioned the D25's with a McCormack DNA-125 (SS), and then just for a few minutes with a ARC 150.2 (SS), and then with an ARC VS55 and VT100(tubes). Tubes worked so much better I never went back to listening to the D25s through solid state.

I will cut (this part of) a long story short by saying that I bought the VS55 that day, the D25's a few months later, and a SP16 very shortly thereafter. I then let the system settle for a few months, learning it's sound.

At the time, my rig was: SimAudio Moon Eclipse LE or Rega P3 > SP16 > VS55 > D25. MIT MH750 S3 biwire speaker cables, MIT MH330+S2 interconnects (the MITs are a tad on the warm and spacious side).

I would say after this period I felt the D25's treble was sweet although not the last word in extension, the midrange to be communicative and gorgeous, and the bass to be full and overly ripe at one particular frequency. I did notice this ripeness, although I would say less so than you; this was something that only a small amount of recordings in my library exacerbated (say, 5-10%?). In particular I remember Preservation Hall Hot 4 with Duke Dejan to become strangely lumpy in the bass line, so much so that it drove me to distraction. One issue for this was the D25's: they are ripe at certain low frequencies, I think. The other was my room: it exacerbated this. Not much I could do.

Ahh, but I could do some. I started tube-rolling with NOS and new production tubes. That is a story unto itself; but suffice to say I settled on a power tube (TS 6550 reissue, although I flirted with some NOS TS6550s) that provided excellent grip of the lower frequencies, far more extended highs, and better soundstaging. I rolled preamp tubes based upon my mood and whims (mostly Mullard 50's shortplates, although I did use some Telefunken 12AX7s when I wanted more neutrality). This provided more grip and control, while injecting an absolutely gorgeous midrange that would pull me into late, late listening. During the tube rolling exercise, the ProAc's revealed all upstream tube changes immediately. This was my first "real" tube rolling (back to back listening of MANY different tubes) and it really sold me on the value of rolling. The ProAc's were simply windows into what was going on upstream.

I wouldn't characterize them as completely neutral windows; they were editorializing a bit... Warming things up... Sweetening the highs and communicating the midrange above all else. This was VERY musical when combined with really good upstream tubes. At no time did I find the ProAc's clinical, sterile, or would I have ever characterized them as not being typically ProAc midrange champs. They just pulled me into the music in a way no other speaker yet has. They are a bit on the "wet" side of things, so if you like the B&W analytical sound you won't like these. I never did completely quell the lumpiness in the bass, but honestly it wasn't a factor in the end. I loved every minute the D25's were in my house; after settling on a good upstream mix, they were nothing short of the most musical speakers I've ever heard.

In your case, I think one test is definitely in order. You need to try some new pre tubes. The 12AX7EH's you have in there are, I would characterize, a bit round and ripe in the bass, with a slightly recessed but golden midrange and highs that go on forever and get a bit spitty up top. I'm frankly quite surprised you weren't drilled in the head by the highs--but such is system synergy, and the 100.2 must be a little warm in that arena. For midrange magic, I'd try some Mullard's, both the longplate and shortplate if you can get your hands on some. I just don't think any new-production tube is going to do it for you in this case. The midrange magic of this tube will make you completely forget the Harbeth's (well, maybe not, but it will sound gorgeous!) Some reccomend the new 12AX7M GT reissues, but I don't think they come close to the magic of the originals--the tone is similar, but the magic is gone.

But that won't tighten the bass much. Just a tad. And since you don't have the option of running new power tubes, maybe some other trials are in order here. The new-production Ei 12AX7 would be excellent in that arena, but it won't have the midrange lustyness that you'd like. I think maybe some NOS TungSol 12AX7s. I didn't run those for very long in the SP16, preferring the Mullards overall, but my listening notes convey they had great midrange magic and perhaps a little more control than the Mullard tone-machines. Come to think of it, I think the TungSol's would be the ticket, at least from what I've heard.

I will concede that maybe even this won't make the D25's totally amiable to you--I still think you need a good tube amp to get the best of them. But the pre tubes are certainly worth a shot... You're just not hearing what these D25's can do. And with the right mix upstream, they are very good indeed.
there are many good loudspeakers out there, but the truly great ones do exactly what your harbeths do....they make your music collection fun to listen to and they don't favor any particular type of recording or catagory of music. i would guess most audiophiles chase the holy grail by doing everything 'but' buying a truly well designed loudspeaker.
I am a novice in most areas of audiophilia having only come to the hobby 10 or so years ago. Having read the responses I have picked up some info on B&W speakers which I own and appreciate more and more on a daily basis . I think the gentleman who suggested the spendor line as a possible alternative to the d25 is spot on, having heard the classic line they seem equally at home with solidstate and tubes and their midrange is nothing to sneeze at in the bargin, one can imagine the step up to the floorstanders plus their new driver technology as of late. thank`s guy`s