As is the case with many things, it's hard to describe.
Let's start with the obvious:
It's very pleasant...and that's not a 'damning with faint praise' comment.
Pleasant is good.
The bass is a bit, 'rubbery' if that makes any sense...a bit lose with the overall impression that it's not plumbing the depths...a little heavy in the midbass...not as tight as it should be tonally.
Background, very black...midrange very nice...if not a bit 'forward'...remember the 'absence of one, is the prominence of another'.
The highs...softish, not articulated, in my experience...but NEVER fatiguing.
Forgiving but not syrupy...sounds about right.
Actually, with some of the THIEL'S, interestingly, the Mac sounds nice...good offsets for one another.
If we could agree that Spectral is a bit dry sounding, clean but dry, we have some common ground.
Classe...more musical and very Threshold/Pass Labs sounding.
Krell, thunderous bass, a bit grainy (my main objection) in the mids and upper frequencies.
What's fundamentally right about the Gryphon...I notice NOTHING as it relates to these regions...I'm only hearing what passes for music 'for ME'.
I've heard Gryphon with THIEL, Logan, B&W, Nearfield Acoustics Pipedreams, PSB, Rega, LSA...almost too many to mention...and it's character or musicality always outshines any perceived color for me...just musical, without the pejorative connotation one normally associates.
Without those niggling little problems or issues, the rest just falls in place for me.
Gryphon is in a league almost by itself for my taste...MBL offers a very, very similar sound...with a slight, and I do mean slight...did I say slight? lack of that final ounce of resolution?
Having said that...they're as close as you'll hear, as if the same guy and suppliers are at work here.
If this does NOT make sense, I apologize...subjective analyses, are always hard.
Hope this helps a bit.
Larry
Good listening |
After a weekend in peace and serenity I'm back for some more interesting discussion here. Thanks for additional comments guys.
As far as the myth of dark character for Gryphon Tabu. I would say that is not correct if I correlate this with your description of dark and what I heard through Gryphon. I would say that Gryphon Tabu had and exceptional well amount of air, very well defined edges and body of the instruments, very dynamic and seductive sound which is with high energy but not aggressive at all. I would hard to say if that is NEUTRAL but sure I would say it was NATURAL to me and enjoyable as music was all around me. Experience that I had with a relatively very cheap system at that time was memorable and was not repeatable in experience and pleasure of enjoyment of the music. Other components that I used on that time while testing Gryphon Tabu were the following: Canton Venton 807DC, Marantz CD53 (old entry level CDP), Nordost Red Dawn ICs and Nordost Super Flatline Gold MKII.
Soon after that experience I bought second hand MF A308 Dual Mono integrated but I did not achieved the same pleasure as with Gryphon. Also changed CDP for MF Nuvista. In 2010 I also upgraded speakers for Anthony Gallo ref 3.5, where there were a lot of improvement and different presentation of music but still I carry that reference magic moments when the music just emerged and that was I think the blame to Gryphon Tabu. Control and body of the singers and organic body of the instruments struck me the most.
About Gryphon reservation towards USA market something is mentioned on 6moons review and I sense some bad experience Gryphon company had in the second half of 90s. More to read is here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/gryphon/1.html
What is interesting to point here is that we can identify also NAD's attachment to Gryphon and very interesting background. Is here the answer to the development of NAD S300? I think it goes well together if we look the years when NAD S300 was released (1998).
But if I return back to the topic I have a question that is also rather fairly often said for McIntosh gear. "McIntosh sound" often said but not so often discussed what that can be? What kind of sound is that? How do you compare it towards Gryphon? I guess from your answer now is that it is not so deeply involving and does not reveal all the details that e.g. Jeff Rowland Contiuum 500 does?! I'm just guessing this from your answers. I think that McIntosh is not only about the look as I still see a lot of very happy users who found its sound very lush McIntosh. Does McIntosh offer too much forgiveness?
Thanks for great discussion,
best, del. |
Roxy54,
You must immediately surrender your 'audiophile crazy' card, asking a question like that.
Larry
Good listening, and LOL |
Inpieces,
Obvious question...if the Continuum was so good, why did you just sell it? |
My only issue EVER with Gryphon was their ethnocentric view of Americans and the consuming American public.
These views were by and large, so it seems second hand information (inasmuch as I could glean from conversations with personnel including Rassmussen).
Having dealt with international sales and distribution, up to and including creating international distribution for my own company, I recognize it to be a slippery slope with cultural differences...couple that with agenda laden distribution types in the mix and the view of a buying public could be a daunting set of information to deal with.
A really bad review by the American Press sort of hijacked whatever hopes of successful distribution there may have been...so we in the US have been without these magnificent products essentially since their inception.
A personal note...in 2003 Gryphon had a distributor in NY...I forget the name...I called, acting as an agent for purchase...my friend who I was representing was wildly wealthy and wanted the best, so I reccommended Gryphon...and the distributor laughed at the idea that I would call and attempt to purchase what amounted to $40K to $50K worth of electronics so quickly, not understanding my background with THIEL and having sold Gryphon in my own retail store for several years...but instead of being helpful, they were dismissive and not the least bit professional...one call in particular having reached the American Distributor at 4:00 in the local tavern on a weekday, drinking away the afternoon.
So...one could point fingers at the American buying public, the American Press, OR Gryphon, for their abysmal choice for distribution....I chose the latter.
None of this changes the marvelous character and sound of this product...it was/is, simply the best I've ever heard...and nothing I've heard is remotely close.
Good listening,
Larry |
I can't understand what you like about Tabu. I am serious, i have heard it to.
I can say one thing i noticed with Gryphon gear though, i have had 4 units myself. I tried Nordost cables and that was a match no other cable came near.
Continuum 500 and MA7000 is not about musical and/ or not.
C-500 opens up a depth the MA7000 will not. It offers air and resolving power that MA7000 do not. Also, it has much more power and control. The MA7000 looks very good, but it is not as good as C-500. Even Backes & Müller used this amp as reference when building active speakers. Thiel uses C-500 with 3.7. If it was un-musical i don't think the guy who bought it would say it was the best he had used with his Revel Saloon.
I know many hear class D and that is like a bad word.
Perhaps the latest Hypex modules or the finished products they sell are good to. It is completely other prices than typical High end price tags. People should look more in to the studio realm. There are many very very good things making High end pricing a bit bizarre. |
'Dark'...would generally mean, 'lacking air' and a sense of unlimited upper bandwidth...not so, with regard to any description that I would apply to Gryphon.
When I hear live music...me, nobody else, as my experience is unique to me...I am not aware of highs and lows...or any bandwidth...just the music.
For my rather extensive experience with Gryphon...it captures this better than any other electronics I've heard...(solid state).
It simply makes what sounds to me, like music, without any of the fancy nomenclature we tend to apply to those uniquely satisfying moments of real music. It passes the information through the electronics, seemingly unchanged texturally...musically. Nothing is highlighted, nothing is front and center, EXCEPT the musical experience, if I may be so bold as to suggest that something like this is possible.
There are only a handful of pieces of gear that can do something like this...my preferential list...
Gryphon...Five Stars...wonderful
MBL...when set up right the full MBL system is magic...the electronics 'in the same league with' if not the same pew as Gryphon...but I still defer to the Gryphon.
Tubes...for my humble impressions, only VAC makes the cut here...and my praise for them is again uniquely mine...and does not diminish the value of ANY other product...to me, it is the Tube Alternative to Gryphon...as, after all, this IS all about the music.
Good listening,
Larry |
Hi Del,
Re definitions, 'dark' is generally taken to mean a warm, mellow, excessively rich quality in reproduced sound. The audible effect of a frequency response which is clockwise-tilted across the entire range, so that output diminishes with increasing frequency.
The counter-tenor is 'light' which is lean in bass and upwardly tilted in the treble. |
Hiya guys Lrsky, Kiwi and Elberoth. That are really good quality answers. I appreciate them a lot!
I need to thank you all for very vivid and detailed description on where you position Gryphon and McIntosh on your experiences. I see that you based your comment mostly on the experience gained with different Gryphons and how it compare to other Gryphon gear (Callisto 2100, Tabu) and also other makers.
A comparison between Callisto 2100 and Diablo and Tabu and Diablo gave me again more understanding of the difference between these two fine amplifiers. I'm lucky here only at one spot that my friend who is living not far from me has Gryphon Tabu and I'm looking forward the time when he will be so good to lend me it again for a test with my current setup which is consisted from Anthony Gallo Ref. 3.5 speakers, Anthony Gallo Ref. speaker wires, MF Nuvista 3D CDP and Cardas Golden Cross ICs. Really wonder what Gryphon can do on it. I liked it on my previous rather more budget system a lot and I think that is how I still carry that sound in my head which is somehow hypnotically good.
What strikes me the most is that some of your observations goes practically parallel with the observations from Frederic Beudot from 6moons who in 2010 reviewed Gryphon Diablo and gave it also best marks. From the review I can identify a remarkable good piece of equipment that is putting forward honest musical truth. What scares me a little is that careful matching is of great importance, also selecting sources on the warm side is a +, the same with speakers. I wonder that he is compensating with this a little to achieve best liking :). Am I wrong? Do I read wrong?
He also mentions that selecting of source material (CDs) that are good recorded will be crucial with Diablo. But he noted a problem when it comes to bad recordings where Diablo is not making any compromises and will put it like it is. So I'm scared a little about that claim. What I also read with a great interest from Frederic (6moons) review is that he mentions also Gryphon Atilla which has a touch of a warmth and forgiveness. And that is giving me a little more reassuring words that maybe this is piece of equipment I might be looking even more. I wonder now on what basis he state this claim as his review is only about Diablo and he did not had Atilla by that time.
Question opened and sure one thing I would like to explore too what is the difference between small brother Atilla and big brother Diablo. :) I know I need to hear it, best on my system in my room, but where is a luck to grab it for test?
Kiwi you somehow identified a character of musical presentation that is to my liking and I think I must give you a prize :). I like it bold, meaty a tad warmish and most importantly sibilance is my poison of death which i don't like. And as Lrsky said I adore the equipment with which I can listen any kind of recordings.
And last but not least about the myth of "Dark character" of Gryphon Tabu. This is one of the sentence I heard so frequently from different people from forums, magazines and also my friends who are some Hi-Fi freaks say this. What I wanted to say in my previous post is that I can not say that Gryphon Tabu is dark. I found it detailed, musical, maybe a tad warm and away from sibilance. And very listenable for hours. But I don't understand what dark character means. Maybe music coming from dark background? I sensed very well defined boundaries, great body of the instruments which I could visualize and almost touch and great voices. Great control of the speaker units like Gryphon is playing with them effortlessly. Very relaxing and very involving at the same time. Maybe that makes it dark? I don't know. As I said I was hypnotized as a stone by it and sat in one position for hours as I could not move.
Elberoth I'm also interested in that review of yours. Even though if it is in Polish. I will try to help myself with google translate. If you have it I would be glad if you can share it here with us.
Thanks guys looking forward to hear from you,
best, del. |
Hi Delfincek,
I will do my best to address your questions.
The Gryphon Tabu has been out of production for many years and my only experience with it has been in a dealers system (not my own) so my comments need to be read with some caution. I found the Tabu to be a high quality instrument both in terms of design and sound. The Tabu has an extremely robust power supply design and this is important because with audio amplification one is ultimately listening to the power supply. I know that seems odd but as you would have read from my reviews the differences in mediocre and superb amplification often in my experience come down the capability of the power supply. Well-designed high power amplifiers typically possess large and heavy power supplies with high current capability which is demonstrated by their ability to increase output power into low impedances. Since it is current that ultimately drives the cones in your loudspeakers back in forth it is actually the amplifiers power supply design, not some lofty and frequently misrepresented wattage moniker, which underpins perceptions of sound quality. Since high current capability comes from massive power supplies and lots of output transistors, all of which are expensive items, well designed high powered amplifiers dont come cheaply and this is true of the Gryphon range.
Turning now to the sound the Tabu deviates from neutrality but does not in my opinion deviate so far as to label it romantic as Gryphonaudio describes. Id reserve such an adjective more for all valve softies rather than solid state brutes. Further, when referenced against the Diablo the Tabu is not as open in the top end of the audio spectrum and the Diablo trumps the Tabu in both resolution ( particularly reproduction of ambient detail ) and sound staging which is more vast with the Diablo and further grows as you climb up the Gryphon product range. The Diablo also exceeds the Tabu in terms of dynamics and localisation of instruments and actors. However, the Diablo needs careful matching to the source and speakers because there isnt much in the way of tonal warmth. Ive paired the Diablo with a Cary source because the source provides a hint of warmth to the proceedings. Further, the Diablo isnt the quietest high powered integrated in the market that gong would probably go to the Rowland Continuum C-500 and the Diablo runs very hot drawing over 200 watts at idle due to its class A operation for the first 20 watts (approx).
So, what is right for you? Well your view on Cardas cables immediately clues me that neutral is not for you. You clearly prefer added weight to the bass, the addition of some tonal colour and some attenuation in the upper treble. Summed, this gives many listeners the perception of more meat on the bones and an added sense of musicality. On this basis I imagine the Tabu would fit you very nicely indeed but do also consider (if you can) other options including the LSA Signature and the AMR AM-77. Good luck. |
Delfincek,
First of all, I'm surprised you found the Tabu as 'dark', and even more surprised that Gryphonaudio called it 'romantic', as it is not how I remember the Tabu. It probably much depends on what do you compare the amp to.
Compared to Callisto, I found the tabu to be a bit dry sounding. Callisto, especially the 2200 which is much better and a bit warmer sounding, has much more organic presentation than Tabu. The sound is more lush, more fluid, has more texture. At the same time, Callisto has more resolution, its faster, and more articulate. It is just much more transparent than the Tabu, without sounding etched or analytical in anyway.
This is really an outstanding stuff. I have written a review of 2100 vs Mac6900 for a Polish magazine, but also had at home the 2200 and Tabu, both the big one and Tabu AT.
I cannot stop wondering, why this stuff isn't distributed in the US ! |
Having been completely familiar with both products, I first thought the Post was kidding in asking for a comparison...mainly because there is NO comparison.
MAC is good gear, and some swear by it...I understand this...appreciate that certain 'sound' or look has great, sometimes even Universal appeal...hence Mac's years of success. However....however...
I went to Binghamton (long time ago) McMasters Training for their seminar over a couple of days.
They do a great and admirable job with their equipment...I came to be a big fan of their products...BIG Fan...but I can make no pretense that there's any comparison in sound between the Mac and the Gryphon.
Gryphon, to my ear, borders on the mystical...sounds silly, but true...it's so alluring (think tied to the mast in Homer's work, lol).
I owned a Callisto 2100, not even the 'big one' the 2200...and it slayed, Ayre, Conrad Johnson, (sorry Bill and Lew), Krell, Mac, separates and it was not close...AND this was not MY single impressions, but several people over the course of several days of a/b/c/d/ listening sessions in a store in Nashville, TN.
There's a thing that happens in audio, in which one passes over the obvious, and music becomes so realisitic and fun, and life like that the illusion is almost complete...it doesn't happen easily or quickly, but it can and does happen...so it was with Gryphon.
Funny...even devotees of the other gear would simply shake their head and say, 'Wow...that's not close'...words to that effect...surprised, supremely surprised at the difference.
Back some 20 years ago, I sold 11 of the 13 Gryphon preamps (rosewood knobs, gold flashed back plates, and $9000. back when $9K was more than now) that they brought into the US.
I literally, could hook an Adcom 555 Amp to the Gryphon preamp and make it sound remarkable...this forever changed my understanding of preamps and their value to a system.
Your last comment, Delfineck...'I don't like the equipment where you need only audiophile CD's to listen'....hit the mark with me.
When I designed the LSA speakers, the acid test was...can I listen to any 'worthy music'...and have a musical experience?
So it is with Gryphon...this is NO COMPARISON...Gryphon is in a different category of excellence when compared to Mac.
These words and thoughts transcend opinion.
Good listening,
Larry |
@Kiwi thanks for pointing to your review. Great privilege to meet you here as I was already familiar and I read all your reviews with great interest, already some times ago. I also read other reviews of high class integrated and found them very interesting and thorough.
As far as my system and Golden Cross IC is concerned. This is my latest optimization that I did after a lot of trying and Cardas Golden Cross ICs brought the best music presentation into my system. I tried also with totally different IC cables like Nordost Red Dawn, Nordost Tyr, Nordost Valhalla, Oyaide Across 750RR, Van Den Hul the First, Oehlbach and some others. Cardas gave the music the essence and more spirit, and more meat to the bones. This is what I like and I did not find it slow at all. I think I made a nice circle where now my current Musical Fidelity A308 Dual Mono integrated is the weakest link and needs to be changed eventually. That's why I started to look for some better integrated. But will take some time, will explore, will discuss and will sure also listen to different options when the situation emerges.
So a question to you. Are you maybe familiar with Gryphon Tabu? I like its character a lot and is exactly what I'm looking for. I know that describing the character of some equipment is hard as it is sometimes totally subjective matter and depends also on the other components inside the system. But even though I think that you provided lot's of interesting reviews and I know also some reference music that you used during your reviews and maybe I will understand what you mean to say.
Some describe Gryphon Tabu as a bit dark, gryphonaudio said it is romantic. I would hard to say that if that is what suppose to be dark presentation. Maybe i don't know?! Romantic, maybe as I fell in love with it after 2 hours of listening. I was cemented to the chair :).
I just think that I heard the music the right way through it.
How would you evaluate the character of the MA7000 then? I liked it when I listened music through it. Is a character of MA7000 again dark ?
I now think and wonder that development of Gryphon went another way with Callisto and now Diablo and Atilla series. On some forum where one user had all of them, he said that it is not the same Gryphon as it was before with Tabu so it leans also a bit towards the analytical side. So maybe somebody can this understand as a tad bright? But I can not judge that at all, did not heard them yet.
What interest me are the @Gryphonaudio comments on the development of the character from Tabu series and all the way to Diablo. They are short but still interesting to read them. Romantic is changed now with neutrality and still there is presence of that grip and control that was present in Tabu? So maybe it is true that Tabu was a bit dark and Atilla and Diablo are more towards neutral. As I said already, I like the meaty sound of Tabu. Thick, fast, controlled. Music was with the guts this is what strike me the most. And no matter what I trow into the CD everything sounded good. Also bad recording sounded good. And that is one of the indications that we are dealing here with some really nice piece of equipment. Is that also preserved with Callisto, Atilla and Diablo?
Some of the reviews I read about Diablo said that it is highly dependent on what you throw in so this gives me a bit of discomfort.
You know, I don't like the equipment where you need only audiophile CDs to listen so that music sounds good on the system. I also like to throw into my CD a Pop from the 80s which is usually one of the worst recorded. And if that sounds good then I sense that I'm close to find my mate in the Hi-Fi to accompany me.
thanks for your kinds answers, best d. |
I bought a Gryphon Diablo some years back after auditioning as many integrateds as I could around the same price point. I scribbled some notes on the product here. The Diablo, unlike the McIntosh MA7000 is a neutral product. What you feed it with and connect it too will determine whether it is right for you. I think the pairing with the NuVista would be interesting. I would be wary on the Cardas Golden Cross cable though. I also have this cable at home and find it a bit thick and slow compared with others out there. Perhaps before you spend a bomb on a new amp you might want to optimise what you already have? |
The Tabu is a 17 year old design but still has a lot to offer in shear honest musicallity, leaning towards the romantic side.
The Atilla, being a new design, offers the same but with a higher degree of resolution, speed and neutrality.
The Diablo has all this, combined with awesome power.
It all depends on the rest of the set-up and the ears that listens to it. The product you like the most,. IS the best for YOU, regardless of what I, magazines or other people say. |
Great thanks to additional answers Inpieces and Elberoth2. Really interesting to read the points and your opinions. But I presume that all these mentioned amplifiers are very well built and there is a lot about synergy which should be played with. It is also interesting that I read some of the opinions from people coming from Jeff Rowland Coninuum 500 to MA7000 and they say that the sound become more fluid and fuller. Maybe not so detailed as on Jeff Rowland but more listenable on the longer run (they talk about tube like sound). But sure there is a much difference in construction, Continuum 500 is pure D class amplifier and McIntosh MA7000 build with their Autoformers. There is one thing I like about both. They do not produce a lot of heat so they can be put practically everythwre and that is one positive thing I like about them both. Gryphons here are different animals again and it is very important that they have enough space so that the heat can go away. There is one additional thing that I liked about Jeff Rowland Coniuum that it has HT bypass. This is an extra goody that McIntosh MA7000 does not have. HT bypass is a function that is very useful for me. McIntosh MA7000 I listened on SF speakers and I liked it. Also EQ controls can be useful I think, to tune the sound to the best liking. But I'm not sure how in practice really works as I did not have time to deal with that. I personally still don't favor any of the amplifiers mentioned here as I don't know them yet so well but sure your help will provide some additional answers that will at least initiate which amplifier should I listen first. But as said I will not decide on the fly so I will take time also a year if necessary to decide properly.
As far as the Gryphon Tabu is concerned I tried it personally in my home and I also know about its past and the sell of plans and development of NAD S300 that is technically almost identical. I'm also familiar about the difference between them. If I go back to the Gryphon Tabu I found it the best integrated amplifier I heard till today and I also listened some of the extremely expensive seperates combos at friends, some Hi-Fi shows or demo rooms. Gryphon Tabu was a big surprise. At the begining I said ok it is playing well but it was still cold. But after an hour it opened up and it was exceptional good. I remember I was listening some of my reference CDs like Miles Davis Kind of Blue and control and wood of the bas was exceptional well. Trumpeth was so well defined and I could touch it with my fingers. I remember also Rodrigo and Gabriela playing the acoustic guitars and it was like I had them in my room. Wood of the body of the guitar was there. Superb performance with great attack, great control. Sound was so full bodied that I did not listened to equipment anymore but music. There were also no sibilance with Tabu. Sibilinace is one of the things that I want to avoid completely as this is one of the thing that is the most irritating to listen. So with Gryphon Tabu I remember I was just sitting in one position, like I was cemented to my couch. I could not hit the trigger on my remote for the next song. All the CDs I put in my CD player sounded so good.
I really wonder how the Gryphon Atilla can compare to this Tabu if it is even better than this integrated amplifier maybe can be my kind of a treat for my ears?!
Still want to collect more comments, more opinions from you and I enjoy that this opens more ground for thinking and to explore even deeper.
thanks, del. |
I second Inpieces opinion regarding Tabu. Gryphon Callisto 2100/2200 sounds much better, not to mention the latest Atilla. |
I just sold my Jeff Rowland Continuum 500 to a guy who had Mcintosh MA7000. He told me the Continuum was so much better and had nothing which was better than Continuum 500. He used it with Revel Salon. He actually told me it was the best amp he had owned. I have myself owned, the older Gryphon Callisto 2200. I can easily say the Continuum 500 outperforms that amp by far. Tabu amp is not a good amp, don't buy that. The Tabu design was actually was what became NAD S300 amp. Yes, that is true. |
Thanks for your first thought you shared here Zormi! I agree with you that separates like pre and power will outperform any of the above mentioned integrated amps. Due to the limited space I'm seeking for one box only.
I was really amazed with the Gryphon Tabu sound on my relatively cheap system (Canton Vento 807 DC, cheap Marantz CDP) as after 1 hour after the Tabu was warm enough the artists just appeared in my room and I sensed such a control that I never experienced later in my apartment. Great control and grip, great bass response, no sibilance, full body of the instruments, I could hear the wood of the guitar, singers were singing with full lounges. For Tabu they say it is on the dark and warm side, but I just enjoyed what I heard and I'm hard to conclude if that was dark or warm what I heard. It was just a perfect sound for me.
I read some of the articles and some of the opinions on different forums and some of the users say that Gryphon Diablo is a bit different in character than Gryphon Tabu. But I didn't heard it yet and it is also very hard to get the audition here and that's why I'm asking for more insights. I'm asking also how is it with Gryphon Atilla as this is in practice integrated that can be directly compared to Gryphon tabu as it is the same ligue.
Also McIntosh MA7000 is one of the integrated that would sure love to try in my system but again hard to get audition and also it is a huge animal to carry :).
best, d. |
What I can say is that much bigger Gryphon combo (Prelude pre plus Encore power, 500Wpc/8ohms) than mentioned integrades pretty easily outperformed both Mac MA7000 and C220/MC501. Actually, the best sounding Mac was MC-275 tube power amp. Speakers was B&W802D, Nagra front-end.
Of course, it doesn't mean anything yet. Current Gryphon integrades may be different sound wise than retired Prelude/Encore combo... |
