@fsonicsmith
Thank you so much for taking the time to chime in. This is exactly what I was hoping to hear from someone who has a deep understanding of Garrard.
The turntable and tonearm was professionally installed by my dealer. We went whole nine yards so I am ruling out bullet 2 and 3. Removing subs helped but not a long term solution, that’s why I am now using a phono with subsonic filter.
I would look into bullet 4 once I consult with my dealer (he is in Nashville too). My Garrard was completely rebuilt by Audio Grail, UK so I suspect it’s the motor but external PSU is definitely worth pursuing (and I will eventually).
Bullets 6-7 are in play this weekend as I am going to pull out my 800 plus lbs, Core Audio quad rack from storage and re-configure my system. Being on suspended floor + subs are not the best condition for turntable. Let’s see if changing out racks helps with chassis born vibrations.
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@lewm
Sorry for being vague…the main issue is chassis vibrations. As I increase volume, the vibrations in plinth increases causing stylus to jump up or skip grooves. Day 1 was worse as even the footfalls were causing stylus to jump. After installing IsoAcoustics pucks, TT is now immune to footfalls. I can play records at reasonable volume but as I increase volume, I start to feel vibrations coming on when I touch the plinth. Subsonic filter is engaged and subs are ON.
I am switching out much heavier rack tomorrow, hoping for better isolation from subs.
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“It is most likely caused by your stand and suspended floor”
@noromance
I suspect just as much. I am counting on my other rack which is roughly 3x in width and weight to provide better isolation. The plinth has a cavity / opening to accommodate Garrard motor and bearing. Wil know tomorrow if I need to look beyond the rack to further isolate the plinth.
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@mdalton
I honestly don’t recall, I must have gone through half a dozen configuration. I can’t check again until everything is put back together, hopefully by tomorrow.
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“Your problem though is one of isolation”
@fsonicsmith
I agree. I spent the weekend reconfiguring my system by switching out to a much heavier rack and pulled out couple of digital components that weren’t in the system due to limited rack space. I end up dusting some of my favorite CD’s..lol!
Back to TT, things improved greatly but not to a degree where everything is perfect. Thankfully, no external feedback from subs, internal vibrations are tamed 95%. IsoAcoustic pucks removed and TT is back on Finite Elemente slim cerabase temporarily until I find a better solution. I have uploaded new pics in my virtual system.
https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11092
It’s a work-in-progress, still long ways to be on par with my Streaming setup. Thanks again for your invaluable advice.
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“How does 301 at this point compare with the SME”
@mdalton
Too early to make any assessments cause 301 is not completely dialed in. But I do see myself enjoying 301, for a very long time. SME 15AV is a great sounding TT, much quieter and robust than the 301 on hand. And it has lot to do with the plinth. If there is a weak link, it’s the plinth. I cannot recommend DAS Acoustics for 301/401 plinths to anyone…the interactions, quality of build fell way short of my expectations.
Koetsu deal fell through so hopefully there will be another opportunity to own a Koetsu in near future.
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@fsonicsmith
All good suggestions…. there maybe options that might not require altering the flooring but could still offer some isolation from vibrations. I do have future plans to replace the carpet with wood flooring, may be at that time I could possibly address the ‘bracing’ underneath my rack. As far replacing the speakers and subs, that’s not going to happen. I am considering all cost-effective isolation platforms or feet under the 301 to see if that helps mitigate the issues.
I know my room and speakers /subs are not the problem based on my experience with fabulous SME 15AV TT. The 15AV was rock solid and completely immune to any of these feedback/isolation issues.
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@noromance
Sorry I missed your post. Spring base isolation and Stillpoints are next on my list. And I am gathering information on all the available bearings and then going to decide which one gets my $$$. As far Audio Grail plinth, I just don’t care for ‘boxy’ looking plinths..lol!
My biggest concern heading into this project was,
1) am I going to like the sound of 301, and
2) rebuit quality, ease of use.
Both of these are answered to a great degree. I kinda knew 301 won’t be perfect from get go…I chalk this up to my inexperience and couple of poor choices. Despite of its challenges, I’m enjoying spinning records on 301. So 301 is not going anywhere, I honestly see myself keeping 301 around for a long time and tweak it further with parts like bearing, platter and even change out plinth to further elevate its performance.
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@pindac @mdalton @noromance
My Garrard 301 is finally free from the gremlins of air and floor born energy. The solution…20 years old Final Laboratory Daruma 3-II’s from my closet. They have managed to effectively float the turntable thus freeing the TT from any mechanical vibrations. They are very similar to Symposium Rollerblock Jr. I just need to be careful to not knock off my TT off the rack with my knees…LOL!
Atleast now I can focus on finding a more stable ‘isolation’ solution and not think about replacing the plinth.
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@pindac
Thanks for your post and the link to the article. It does makes sense. I’ve been determined to make things work and so glad that I’m finally able to enjoy my TT . The root of the problem is my suspended flooring. One of the poster already suggested addressing the flooring by installing Jack posts to firm up the flooring. That’s a long term solution, unfortunately not in the cards right now. I do realize the need to address this as some of the boards have loosened (normal a for 17 years old home) underneath the carpet.
The lengths we go to, just to spin a bloody record…LOL!
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“materials and solutions necessitated by compromise. ”
@noromance
I hear you. That’s the first thing I wanted to analyze by adding the roller blocks underneath the plinth. During my 3 hours listening with different reference recordings, I noticed no compromises in dynamics or tonality of music. If anything, we gained clarity and solidarity in playback…everything sounds right. I am able to crank up the volume without causing or adding any kinds of distortions to the sound.
It’s a huge WIN, and all I want to do is buy more records, unwrap & clean and play them on my Garrard 301 😊
Thank you all for sticking through my journey.
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“What specifically do you not like about the DAS plinth?
@ketchup
The finish and build quality leaves lot to be desired, certainly not worth the asking price. Others may disagree with my assessment and that’s ok. The plinth is on the lighter side and lacks appropriate mass needed to reject the excess energies produced by the motor and the platter bearing. You probably know this, a poorly made plinth will store and then amplify those energies with such efficiency that they encroach upon the music. I may not have the worst made plinth but it is certainly not what I had hoped for.
The plinth appears to be made from constrained plywood and layered with a polished veneer. The bottom plate may very well be MDF layer for all I know. It took lot of experimenting with different footers to drain the negative energies away from plinth. It’s working well for now, however I wouldn’t hesitate to replace it when I cross path with something wildly superior; both in terms of build and aesthetics.
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I have been enjoying analog bliss for past month or so. There is something very endearing about Garrard 301. Is it the timeless classic design or the toe tapping musical engagement…maybe little bit of both. 301 is a keeper!
I believe it’s time to further explore and maximize my investment. So, I ordered a heavier/thicker aluminum platter (topped with gun metal matt) and brass oil bearing to try it out. And more importantly, a custom plinth with dual arm boards. Opted for much sought after Hawaiian Koa in Satin finish with Brass arm-boards. The plinth weighs about 85lbs and arguably his best work off late. I can’t wait to experience it in my Man Cave…expected delivery around April 2025.
Cheers!
@mdalton
SUT will be here after Capitol Audio for further exploration :-)
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@mdalton
Plinth - Same source as yours :-) As far as SUT, very likely EMIA as a test case and then I will decide between Hashimoto or Etsuro. I won’t be at CAF but plan on going to AXPONA 2025.
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@mdalton
I took a slight detour and bought Softone Model4 Equalizer. It appears to mate well with LOMC carts. Since I already own few NOS 12AX7/ECC803S tubes so it should be fun tweaking this little gem. Will know how good this thing sounds by end of the month.
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Softone Model 4 is here. Its breaking-in and sounding promising. It’s dead quiet (uses a pair of 12AX7 variant), clarity, bass response and imaging seems to be spot on.
Thanks to @hoytis for the mention.
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“A randomly chosen NOS 12AX7/ECC83 is unlikely to be as quiet.”
@lewm
Maybe so but that shouldn’t deter anyone to not experiment, right? It’s a calculated gamble with any NOS tubes…well regarded NOS 12AX7s or ECC83s (like Mullards, Telefunkens, or Amperex) may not be low noise as Sovtek but what they have in spades is harmonic complexity and tonal richness.
The Sovtek 12AX7LPS is indeed not a separate “variant” of the 12AX7 but rather a Sovtek-branded 12AX7 with the “LPS” designation, which stands for long plate spiral. This spiral filament design helps reduce hum in applications like phono stages, where low noise is critical. Its long plates can offer a bit more detail and tonal richness compared to short plate designs.
I had an extensive dialog with the manufacturer prior to my purchase, the Model 4 supports all 12AX7 variants. My particular piece is supplied with JJ ECC803S and it is dead quiet.
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“I just think they nailed it….
@hoytis
I agree with your assessment. This is a very special phono at a screaming bargain. I have been listening to records two straight days…lol. Have you done any tube rolling? My unit came with JJ ECC803S, they are breaking in nicely and have whet my appetite for more.
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@noromance
Thank you for your recommendation. And I agree, Telefunken ECC83/12AX7 tubes are legendary for a reason. I am also looking at Mullard’s from 60’s which are known for silky and pleasant top end without being rolled-off. The best of these tubes retain a fine sense of "air" at the top, and the upper midrange is smooth and liquid. These tubes reproduce the human voice, especially female voices, with haunting realism. And then there is Siemens ECC83 NOS 1968, that are favorably touted for phono stages and preamps.
I may end up buying a pair of each and see which one’s are the keepers:-)
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@dover, @larryi
You both are right—Telefunken ECC83s are not “tonally rich” in the sense that Mullards or Amperex tubes are. They’re prized for their neutrality, speed, and precision rather than warmth or fullness. Their sonic signature tends to be leaner, more transparent, and dynamic, which is why they excel in circuits like the Marantz 7, where their neutrality complements the design’s inherent qualities.
As you mentioned, tube performance is highly circuit-dependent. Telefunkens might shine in a circuit designed for clarity and speed, while Mullards or Amperex tubes with their fuller and richer sound, might be better suited for systems aiming for warmth and body. It’s fascinating how tube rolling allows for such fine-tuning, but also how generalized statements about “the best tube” fall short when we take into account circuit topology, system synergy and personal preference.
Your experience highlights the beauty of experimentation, something I deeply believe in.
Do you find that your preference for Telefunken or Mullard shifts depending on the type of music you’re listening to or is it the system’s overall tonal balance?
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@dover
Your focus on speed and transparency aligns perfectly with your preference for a balanced and revealing system. It’s great that your approach to tube selection considers the nuances of classic circuit design. That level of detail ensures optimal synergy and performance without introducing unwanted coloration or sluggishness.
My journey into analog so far has been nothing short of amazing experiences. There is still lot more work ahead as I look forward to receiving the elusive Woodsong plinth + implementation of 2nd tonearm and Mono cart by Spring 2025.
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@macg19
You’re welcome! Sorry to hear about the issue with left channel, hopefully you can get it repair easily. I really appreciate your feedback on tube rolling, I am still using stock JJ’s …the phono is now fully “broken-in” and I’m really enjoying its warm, organic tonal characteristics. IMHO, this little giant slayer is a perfect fit for systems that are tuned or end user’s prefer intimacy and warmth.
Inspired by your feedback, I am going to swap out JJ’s with NOS Telefunken 12AX7 this weekend. What cart you’re using with Model 4?
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@noromance
Indeed you did and I ordered the NOS Telefunken based on your initial suggestion but then I completely forgot about them….lol!
@macg19 post reminded me that I had NOS Telefunken’s sitting in my closet.
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@noromance, @macg19
I have been listening to Telefunken NOS 12AX7 since yesterday after 4 days of break-in. Let me first say JJ 12AX7 are excellent tubes for the money. My biggest concern was noise with Tele NOS. Fortunately, they turned out to be dead quiet.
Now the differences, JJ pair in contrast were slightly darker and bit forward in mid-range. Tele NOS definitely has more refined mids, slightly sweet and smoother top end. If I may say so, excellent layering and microdynamics too and very emotionally engaging.
They are allowing me to fully appreciate Ben Webster’s velvety and breathy tenor saxophone fully bodied sound at another level. I own several recordings of Ben’s music and every one of them giving me goosebumps :-)
I can’t praise enough my Model 4 phono…what an amazing bargain! I may order another one for my 2nd tonearm.
Thank again!
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@noromance
Ben plays Ballads by Storyville is excellent. No surface noise, the pressing is made in EU. I am not easily impressed but this one is a keeper. I am going to look up this record label and see what else they’ve got.
@macg19
Kenny Burrell Midnight Blue atm.👍
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@macg19
I had a feeling Tele NOS would be better since I am using quad of Tele NOS in my CD player. Speaking of tube rolling, I always wanted to try Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7 but they are so rare and expensive.
The reissues or newer tubes are pretty good but they simply cannot match the vintage NOS tubes distinctive characteristics adding subtle but meaningful improvements in tone, texture, and timing. Gotta go, just received a fresh delivery of Ben’s new albums from Amazon :-)
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@noromance
I didn’t find anything else on Storyville Label that I couldn’t live without :-)
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How about Count Basie…my personal favorites, 88 Basie Street and Farmer’s Market Barbecue.
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@larryi
@noromance
There are bargain out there if you’re patient. I got my last pair of Telefunken 12AX7 NOS ( Made in W Germany) for under $100. Setup alerts on HiFi Shark and take your pick.
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@larryi
Noted.
@noromance
Side by Side (Acoustic Sounds Reissue)
I am really enjoying this classic duo album where Hodges steps out front with Ellington’s graceful support. Swinging, relaxed, and full of lyrical alto work.
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“Tele ECC803S which is never under $700”
@noromance
They cost twice as much as my phono stage….yikes!!
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“Ben Meets Oscar Peterson, Ben Meets Gerry Mulligan, and Coleman Hawkins Encounters”
@mdalton
These albums are must own in any collection and they’re my favorites too. I would like to add another one to the list -
Art Tatum; Ben Webster
The Tatum Group Masterpieces
28 LP’s…wow!
I also love Ben’s work on Gentle Ben and Stardust albums.
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@noromance
Thanks…Joe Williams shares some stylistic elements with Nat King Cole. Another personal favorite of mine is Johnny Hartman…there’s not a lot of recorded material, but what exists is pure gold.
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@macg19
I placed my order of Model 4 phono, delivery estimate end of June. I am looking at some alternatives to Telefunken 12AX7 NOS to try it out. Do you or anyone else here tried Amperex Bugle Boy - ECC83 (Holland) or Tungsram (Hungry) in a phonostage?
The Mullard’s you’ve tried in Model 4, were they ECC83 / CV4004, long plate (1950s-60s) production?
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@noromance
Totally hear you and I appreciate the feedback. On surface, the Softone Model 4 may appear to be weakest link given rest of the components in the analog chain but Model 4 phono turned out to be pretty darn good and wonderfully engaging. Having said that, I am keeping my options open as far as trying more phono’s down the road.
And hey, you’re right—YOLO.
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@noromance
Based on my experience, I won’t be buying anything from Aric Audio (new or used).
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@noromance
I’d prefer not to go into all the details publicly, but let’s just say my personal experience left me with enough hesitation that I’ve decided to steer clear moving forward. I know others have had great experiences but for my part, I’m just choosing to not purchase his products.
Hope that makes sense and thanks again for understanding.
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@aricaudio
Aric, thank you for reaching out. I appreciate your willingness to reconnect. I’ve made peace with the experience and don’t feel it’s worthwhile to revisit or invest further into it. I trust you’ll understand and I wish you continued success.
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@noromance
My room is a bonus room, it’s not acoustically perfect but the dimensions offer a lot to work with. The 15’ depth and 30’ width give me some flexibility for speaker placement and optimal listening spot. The 8’ ceiling is standard due to being on 3rd floor and part of a split attic, sloped ceiling angle in the back, which helps with diffusion and reduced parallel surface reflection (a bonus in disguise).
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@lewm
Appreciate you sharing your thoughts. While I can see your point about not all vintage tubes live up to their reputation, I have a different take on trying vintage NOS tubes. Just like anything else in audio, NOS tubes can be easily a misfit in any given application. To @macg19 point, NOS mullard’s performed admirably better in his DAC versus phonostage.
Whether NOS tubes are worth chasing depends on your goals, system resolution and budget. If your system or a tube component responsive to tube rolling, then it’s totally worthwhile to chase the best possible NOS tubes that can further elevate your emotional connection with music. YOLO!
@noromance
I picked up another nice album off Amazon, Ben Webster - Plays Duke Ellington.
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