Garrard 301 motor and rumble

@jasonbourne71 A nice measured answer. Thank you. As you modify the 301 with a such things as a precision machined brass bearing assembly and a heavier platter along with the many other steps to get the best of the 301 (like a complete motor rebuild) the 301 becomes less noisy but also loses some of that forcefulness. The Shindo 301 is a good example. The platter weighs more than 20 lbs whereas the original platter weighs 2.2 Kg, about 4.7 lbs.

You won't anger me mijostyn. Seriously. Have at it and if I respond at all, it will be polite and measured. I promise. 

I don't agree with much of what you have to say but when there are legions of respected audio writers who disagree with you, I don't have to defend the praises of a good idler drive. 

Ralph Karston loves his Technics 1200's. There are legions of VPI fans. You love your Sota. And the divergent tastes and opinions go on and on. It is interesting that we accept that our taste in loudspeakers is different than one another's, and yet we somehow expect some degree of consensus as to turntable and arm combinations and turntable design philosophies. 

I have said it before and I say it again-I know that there are many turntables that are technically superior to my two hot-rodded idler's BUT I also know that my TD124 and Garrard 301 will be reproducing music just fine when my great great grandchildren are looking for a turntable. These decks were built to LAST. 

I would definitely replace the belt. You must order the belt from SOTA. Do not use generic replacements.

You might also have your serial number in hand and request a list of upgrades available for your unit. There have been many improvements over the years. For sure you should consider a new magnetic bearing and platter. 

If records have trouble sealing you will need to send your platter back and have a new mat put on. Records that are warped or dished and won't seal sometimes can be made to seal by starting up the table with the two finger nails pushing the lip of the record down at 180 degrees for three revolutions. records that are dished will seal on one side but not the other. 

If the pump makes enough noise that you can hear it from a distance of 10 feet it will need to be replaced with a new unit. The new ones are much quieter. 
 

@mijostyn  No such worries or anything even remotely similar apply to either of my idler turntables. If there is such a thing as a vacuum hold down system that does not fail, sooner or later, color me surprised. 

@mijostyn 

I previously thought that you were knowledgeable and just needlessly argumentative. Now I see it is much worse-you are entirely ignorant. 

No, you just have to replace a noisy idler wheel every couple of months or so. 

Garrard and Thorens experts have stated repeatedly in their writings that it is not uncommon to find thirty year old idler wheels that remain perfectly true. 

You could substitute a modern electronically controlled motor so you can have more accurate rumble.

Are you going to blame this on your dyslexia again or will you just admit that you are awful (and dumb)  with your native language? 

 

There are many excellent modern turntables, either belt or direct drive that are quieter, more speed stable and better isolated. This is not an opinion. It is a matter of fact.  

Not opinion? Hooboy! Who let the inmate out of the cuckoo's nest?

You could substitute a modern electronically controlled motor 

You clearly are incapable of comprehending Ralph's point and it again shows that you know nothing about turntables. I am shocked. Speed control for a relatively weak motor will do nothing to address the micro-level (instantaneous) speed changes that Ralph is talking about. 

@mijostyn Your Sota is a fine turntable. It is nowhere close to being perfect and is no more state of the art (pun) than a top level modified and updated TD124 or 301.

Leave me out of the equation-read the S'Phile review of the newly released version of the 301and then tell all of us that it is not a matter of opinion, it is a fact that the reviewer is wrong. Tell all of us that it is not a matter of opinion, it is a fact that Art Dudley was wrong. 

Last, I will bet dollars to donuts that my Reed 3P arms easily outperform whatever arm you have installed on your Sota.

For the love of God, can someone else denounce the man that keeps issuing proclamations of fact like some decrepit Medieval king from his throne for the bag of hot air that he is?

He seems to know just enough to be dangerous and no more. Much of what he says about all things vinyl-related is demonstrably incorrect and yet I seem to be the only one to object. Are the rest of you afraid of him? Why?

To Ralph Karsten; this person absolutely misunderstood your point about powerful motors eliminating stylus drag-induced speed variation and yet you refrained from correcting him. Why? Because he owns two of your amps?

I suppose if I had the time and inclination to identify and list ALL of his false proclamations of fact I could, but why bother? All one needs to do is take a cursory look at his posts. Such as his recent post that all who opt to purchase low output MC cartridges are misguided and doomed to inferior S/N ratio. This in his shameless-and yet successful- effort to publicly shame MoFi into extending a free repair/extended warranty (rather than blame himself for not reading the warranty prior to purchasing).

He clearly does not have a clue as to matching cartridges with suitable phono stages nor a clue as to the importance of investing in a good phono stage to begin with. His phono stages are digital sound processors. He is a contradiction of claiming to love analogue while refusing to surrender digital manipulation.

His sound system, which he seems to think is inarguably perfect, more resembles a HT system with a turntable connected to it.

I vow to never engage with this "gentleman" in this forum again. He is a forum bully but a toothless one. And no one else here dares call him out for the self-perceived emperor with no clothes that he is. If the mods choose to exercise censorship here, so be it, but calling out a forum bully should not be grounds for such.

And to you, good Sir, the subject of this post, belt drive is not perfect. This may come to a shock to a you but it too is true. As the motor pulley turns the belt, the belt is stretching and contracting at the micro-level at all times. This is why some have tried multiple motors, pulleys, and belts and others have tried thread and floss instead which again don't solve all problems with belts. Some listeners hear the effects and deficiencies of belt drive and some don't. This is not a matter of "superior hearing" but simply a matter of sensitivity and personal taste. As with so many things in life where there are analogous arguments and yet no "absolute truth", e.g. the attributes of aluminum, carbon fiber, titanium, and steel for bicycle frames, a human being with higher levels of cognition and consciousness comes to the awareness that the scientific method only goes so far when human subjectivity is involved.  

Out.

Thanks Lewm and Ralph. Ralph for your candor and integrity and Lewm for giving me some needed perspective and advice to settle down. 

Ralph is a prime example of what is good on this Board-sharing information and assisting others when asked. 

It is unfortunate that some take delight in playing at or being the provocateur. Others feel that this a forum for verbal combat and I am not blameless in that regard. 

For what it is worth Lewm, I don't prefer idlers. I fell into them. My TD124 was my Dad's. He bought it in a NYC audio shop the same year that I was born, 1959, while on a work related trip for Wright Patterson AFB. After deciding that several different VPI decks were not for me, I took on the project of having his mothballed and non-operational 124 first repaired and then modified and hot-rodded to the nines. The custom stainless steel bearing assembly utilizes two ball bearings rotating on top of each other and was designed and custom made (IIRC) by Greg Metz and is no longer in production. The platter is much heavier than standard and also supplied from Greg. I don't recall his source. Much of this is detailed in my profile with photos. After being amazed at the results of this project, I again "fell" into buying a near NOS early grease bearing 301 and again having it modded to the max with parts mostly sourced from Ray at Classic HiFi in the UK. However, after trying his hugely massive brass platter along the lines of the Shindo I ended up happiest with the custom copper topped alloy 301 platter sold by Steve Dobbins.

I will readily admit that the beauty of the custom plinth options that are integral to an all-out effort at making an idler perform at its best was part of my motivation and remains a large part of my pride of ownership. You won't find that kind of aesthetic with virtually any DD or belt drive deck. This of course being a matter of taste and purely subjective. 

When Brian Walsh of TTsetup.com first laid eyes on the plinth to my 301 his comment was "this belongs in a museum-I have never seen such a beautiful plinth" (yes, the "gentleman" referenced above will quip it belongs in a museum as an historical relic). .

I believe the Reed 3P's with their German made "Firewire" continuous wiring from RCA's to cartridge clips-along with the all of the other attributes of the tonearm design-contribute to a large degree to my overall happiness with the result. I would go so far as to say that is very likely that the same Reed 3P's mated to a very good belt or direct drive table would result in equally pleasurable though slightly different sound. 

And for the record (pun intended), everything I ever say in this forum and on this Board is just my humble opinion and I almost always say so.