I tried woofers facing out and woofer facing in. With the speakers at least 5' from the side walls (no reinforcement from the side walls) I prefered the sound with the woofers facing in... more bass
So, with bass drivers each other on the long wall of my listening room I heard:
More toe-in produced better midrange dynamics (voices more emotionally expressive... but the trade-off is a less defined bass.
And, with little or no toe-in... more and firmer bass, but with less midrange dynamics (snare and voices become compressed). |
Just another thought on the IRD's. They are 200wpc into 4 ohms, which is the ohmage of the sub bass input. What this reiterates is how minimally the addition of another amp may effect your listening enjoyment if you have good amps to begin with...
David |
In my room the Gallo's still need EXTENSIVE break in, but already:
1) Look good (meet the family's approval)
2) Are flexible about placement
3) Have great dispersion (more than two consenting adults may share the sweet spot)
$) Are fast and extended (scary-fabulous tweeter!)
4) Render the acoustic well (good depth)
5) Throw better and more quality-bass than any of my previous speakers (various Quads)
6) Are easy to drive and tube friendly (CJ MV-60)
7) Sound great at low volumes (late at night)
8) Continue to improve daily
As a former Quad-57/63 listener, my listening confirms that this speaker is a whole new game.
I am awaiting a pair of the cigar box size NuForce Reference 8 Mono's, 100wpc Class D amps to try with the Gallo's full-range, and will let you know what I hear. Could be the ticket, or with their damping factor of >4000(!) the NuForce may be the perfect bass amp.
More to follow...
Good listening, with good music! |
Well, after waiting a couple of months to get my Bruce Moore Custom 120's back, they've finally returned and now have new matched quads of EH 6550's. They sound terrific. Great definition, and bass that sound very satisfying. Still, I had my IRD 100watt mono blocks sitting around, so I got a couple of inline 50 Hz low pass filters and connected them to the sub input. The difference in wattage between my tubes and the sub amps may be responsible for the somewhat underwhelming difference. The speakers sound larger, and bass definition is sharper, but overall, there's not a lot of difference, maybe 5-10%. That's what you want to hear though, right? The Gallos as is, without the need for bi-amping, are pretty special. Of course, when the, what are they, 220 watt per channel, sub amps come out with their ability to tailor the power and frequency more specifically, they should make a more significant difference. Still, it's kind of fun to have a little added bass thrown in. |
Remember that you'll need a crossover, set around 45 Hz. if you use something other than a sub amp. And an infrasonic filter if you play LPs. |
From the 6moon review, they didn't seem all that impress, they said that starting out with a good amp might render the SA redundant:
"However, the sound more than filled the room and the bass for the most part sounded appropriately deep and fat. It just lacked ultimate definition. [For comparison's sake, my reference tube amps don't generate enough current for that low-frequency leading edge into those 10-inch woofers either. However, the 1000-watt into 4-ohm ICEpower amps are truly shocking in that regard. At least in my space, they could well render the addition of the bass amp redundant. The same would probably hold true for a more affordable Bryston or McCormack amp - Ed.]" |
I find it hard to believe that it can sound much better with thier amp, than with your own. Especially if you have a processor that will scupt all of your output parameters. Mine sounded fantastic. |
Mine sound best with the woofers facing out. But really, as stated above, that's all dependant on your room set up.
The bad news from Gallo is that it will be at least another three months until the sub amp is available... |
Another vote for facing the woofers in. |
I had some Ref3's for about a month and drove them with the complete opposite end of the amp spectrum. I kept my Innersound ESL 300 MKIII amp, per the suggestion of the guys at Gallo, and had great results. I whole heartedly agree about facing the woofers inward, also. I realize the response is depentdant on the sonics of the room, but I got a lot deeper, and seemingly quicker, bass in that configuration.
Also, I used a couple of extra channels from a Parasound 1206a amp to drive the second voice coil, using my PrePro (Anthem AVM30) crossover and high-pass/low-pass setting to control. It worked incredibly well. It was hard to believe how deep these little speakers would go!!
Good luck with them. |
After reading the new 6moons review, I'm happy I got the Hsu 500w subwoofer amp instead of waiting for the Gallo sub amp (and saved $200 in the bargain). Also, I much prefer the Ref 3s' woofers facing in rather than out. Note that in the 6moons review photo, he has the woofers driving directly into racks of CDs that are very close to the Gallos. I experienced the same relatively weak bass (without the sub amp) when my woofers faced out. |
Jeffreyds,
I really liked them (mine are on order) I thought that the 30/30 did a pretty good job although my friend thought they could use a little more power. The dealer was playing them rather loud though. I would be happy with that set up. I think these speakers will be a classic someday. |
Well, we can read reviews all we want, but if things don't sound right to our ears, they simply don't. Should we second guess ourselves based on reading different good reviews from others with different preferences? Do we have to conform? Guess that's the fun part of this hobby. |
There's a new review at 6moons with the SA amp:
http://6moons.com/audioreviews/gallo3/followup.html |
Romad,
How did you like them with the VAC 30/30? Was 32 watts enough to drive them effectively? If so, I'd bet that was a fantastic combination.
Jeff |
I heard these today at my dealer and could not beleive my ears. Simply Musical the speakers dissapeared. Equipment used is VAC 30/30, Lamm L2 I beleive it retailed fo 4750.00, BAT phono stage, and turntable was 7,000.00 forgot which one. Mine are on order, can't wait to break them in. |
Amp is supposed be ready to be produced now, per Gallo. The Reference center is not nearly as far along. |
In case anyone had difficulty ordering these, as mentioned above, I notice 3 pair for sale at used prices here on Audiogon. If these are worth their weight at the new price, they're a steal at around $2K used.
It's March, has anyone had a recent update from Gallo about the Sub amp that's due out at the end of the month?
David |
Mine are still breaking in, and I love them. That said, I think that my Maggie 3.6 were a better speaker. Wider soundstage, more accurate and transparent imaging. But much less bass, not just volume of depth, but not as focused.
But that is still nothing to moan about. These are a great and versitle speaker. I have rediscoverd my hard rock collection with these speakers. Led Zeppelin and Stone Temple Pilots thank you Anthony Gallo. |
Xenithon, I'm sorry you had to cancel. There's no excuse for what you've had to go through. The sad part is that the speakers are really worth the effort to buy them, but you can't be blamed for disagreeing.
Blondears, this dealer is blowing smoke. The dealer who sold me mine has now sold more than 20 pairs (but no other speaker costing more than $2K). Srajan Ebaen in the 6 Moons review predicted this kind of behavior on the part of dealers with a large investment (in money and ego) in other brands.
Just got a Hsu 500 wat subwoofer amp after giving up myself on getting the Gallo sub amp. It makes the Ref 3s sound like there is a huge sub hidden somewhere in the room. Absolutely amazing. Dave |
I placed an order for these end of last year. I kept on getting runarounds from both the dealer and Gallo direct. One problem and delay after another. Not to mention it takes 3-4 emails before getting a reply and the emails were fairly rude. I was highly dissapointed as I always heard Gallo are meant to have good customer service.
Oh well, order has been cancelled and I was refunded. The search goes on. There was just another delay scheduled and they told me not to expect anything for the next 2 months at a minimum (may be different in the US/Europe)
X |
I haven't heard them yet, but when I went in to my local dealer he told me that he hated them and would not even buy one pair to show because he felt that they could not be sold. I couldn't believe that such a highly praised speaker could be that bad, but he was that confident in his opinion that he gave me the phone number of the rep to find a place to hear them for myself. If they were good wouldn't he want to make the profit on the sale? |
The added amping of the second voice coil adds a nice tight depth to the sound. Surprisingly subtle at times, it obviously shows in bass-heavy material like hip/hop or dance. The ICBM unit works perfectly with an outboard amp to drive the second coils.
I would NOT recommend using the full-range Gallos in lieu of a subwoofer for HT, as suggested in the owner's manual. I've been testing various hook-ups with the new extended-version release of "LOTR--The Return of the King." You will still need an decent sub for the LFE effects. However running the Gallos full-range yielded a much-enhanced sound stage, and dynamic feel to the movie.
I've also replaced my rear surrounds with Gallo Dues which are a perfect match for the Ref 3s.
Ted |
Teonyc,
How did the amping of your second voice coil on the Ref 3's sound? |
I have my pair for only about 3 weeks, and I can say the sound opens up dramatically even with partial break-in. Of the several stores I visited trying to find them in stock, none on display were broken-in to the extent recommended by Gallo (100-300 hours) -- and you could hear it. Now at home, with music the harshness had smoothed out (to the point where I changed the tweater level from -2db to 0). With HT, the soundstaging is much more open and the spacial effects (or is that "affects" ) are more engaging.
I'll be amping my Ref 3's subwoofer inputs this weekend with a Parashound Halo amp and a Outlaw Audio ICBM cross-over. I'll let everyone know how it goes. |
Well, I will be going back again to listen more with a friend. They never sounded harsh or strident to me, but they also didn't sound better in the treble than my modified Kindel PLS-As...but the trebles are my worst range of sound to hear well.
On break-in, I believe firmly that transducers definitely benefit from wearing in, a settling, of all the parts. What's still a question for me is if this pair is or is not broken in, since the shop owner sort of laughed when I asked him on the fone if they were broken in. I guess I'll have to hear them in my home with my equipment before I spend money on them.
I'm still inclined to believe they're excellent-quality reproducers and excellent values at $2600; we'll see.
. |
I agree with Rolloff 100%. I didn't think it possible to make them sound like Opalchip says they sound. After three months with mine, they just keep getting better and better. And yes, they are VERY tube-friendly. Dave |
As an owner of these, I can say if you "don't buy" the they need to break in, idea, you shouldn't buy them. I did, and after their break in which I was present for, they sound terrific, and are a great value at their price, or even a grand or two more. They image fantastically, and I use them with tubes and find them to be very tube friendly in spite of the 88 db efficiency. The low end, while starting out rather bland, after break-in, sounds now to be more than adequate and deep, especially considering that I'm using tubes. I will get the bass amp in the future, for fun. There are hundreds of different speaker makers out there. Some people buy for looks, some for a particular way they like the sound to be presented. The bottom line is, many people including myself think these speakers are the real deal for an incredible price. Everyone should listen for themselves, but don't avoid them because one, or more people from a random forum tell you these don't measure up.
Some people will not\like a product no matter how good it sounds, to a few or many. Listen for yourself. But seriously, make sure the pair you hear is broken in, before you relegate them to the "harsh" scrap heap. |
to Jeffreybehr -
There aren't really ALL that many positive comments here if you read with a grain of salt. Check out the remarks above by Banksfriend, Troutki, Toudou, Vladimir, Kalan, and Zog.
I have listened to these (already "broken in") and they are overrated in my opinion. On the upside - they are "fast", image well under some circumstances, and produce transients very well. They pack plenty of punch for their small size. And they look pretty cool. However - I found them to be quite harsh/strident. They produce a lot of detail but in an "etched" manner to my ears. So they're exciting in the showroom, but potentially very fatiguing at home. Tube amplification would definitely help - but at 88db efficiency, the Ref III's are not super tube-friendly.
I found them to be acceptable with small groups and solo instruments, jazz vocals and the like, but with anything larger they were sub-par. As musical complexity and dynamic range increased, the tonal accuracy in the lower mids broke down significantly - your basic muddiness, and the soundstage became confused. So we've got mild harshness on top and substantial muddiness in the mids, combined with a good but limited low-end. Not Class A or B in my book.
$2400 isn't much for NEW speakers nowadays, so I suppose they're a decent "value", but, of course, you'll also want/need the additional Gallo Bass module amp - so you're starting to look at REAL money. Brilliant marketing, eh? You buy "cheap" speakers at $2600 + tax and then 6 months later come back and drop another $1000 + tax to make the bass "even better"...
We could have an entire thread on this issue also - but I don't buy the "they need to break in" argument. At $3800 to $3900 with bass amp and tax, I'll look elsewhere.
They might work better for your ears. But keep in mind that $3900 will buy some superb, mint condition, used speakers - with little depreciation risk, here on Audiogon if one is patient. |
After reading so many different positive comments on the Ref. 3s, I had to hear them myself and did today at a local dealer. Driven with all Audio Research gear and of course w/o any bass amp, they sounded very nice but not much different than my modified Kindel PLS-As. When I asked if they were broken in, the dealer laughed a little and said yes.
I was surprised they were as short...small...tiny as they are. I had read all the reviews but I just wasn't prepared for their...er...itsybitsyness. These would make GREAT speakers for the 4 corners of a multichannel system in a small room! I think I'll be going back with a friend so I'll hear them again and get his opinion too. We'll see.
Also heard the big Quads (989s?) driven by Manley 250s(?) with the same music. DEEP soundstage, MUCH more bottom-octave bass...an astonishing (to me) amount. Wow!
. |
If anyone in the Ohio area would like to hear the Reference 3, go to Hansbarger Appliances in Greenville, Ohio (west of Springfield not far from Indiana border). I know it sounds crazy, but they have a pair on display. Ask for Josh, he is a good guy. One tip, you might want to take your own amp as the electronics they have don't really show what these speakers will do. I took a trip up there and hooked them up to by Berning ZH270 and WOW! they sounded great, and I don't they they are even fully broken in yet. |
|
Brian, point well taken, but you'd be surprised how many dealers and internet sellers are willing to ship a product to your home so u can evaluate them for 2 to 4 weeks. if u don't like, then you can return them for full refund less the shipping. this is how i bought all my equipment:) i do alot of research before ordering but in some cases it just doesn't work in your system so u regretably return them. but i find it hard to believe u can't find a Gallo dealer near u to have a listen. if your seriously interested, you'll find a way. but if your willing to risk several grand, it's your money but i wouldn't. |
Keep in mind Dracule1 that not everyone has the ability to hear gear personally. |
I recently auditioned the Gallo ref 3. I own the Hyperion 938s (I have a review posted here). Although the Gallos were not broken in, they did have very wide soundstage and good imaging and sounded very dynamic. It did sound "foggy" or veiled compared to my Hyperions, but the speakers were not broken in. Many speakers sound like this brand new, so I would advise those to make sure the Gallos have at least 100 hrs (preferably 200) before comming to any conclusions. I think they are promising speakers. If the Gallos are truly what TAS claims them to be, then we have another giant killer (the other being the Hyperions). I will have another listen to them in about 2 weeks, hopefully the dealer pair will be broken in by then.
WhatI found surprising was that people are ordering these speakers without even listening to them just because of the TAS review. Don't people learn? I never ever purchase anything based on a review - I've had too many let downs in the past. Let your ears be the decision maker. Sounds obvious but people forget. |
Jcruse, just where on that site might I find that prospective center-channel speaker? |
Golden_ears,
They do, but it's not released yet. Go to roundsound.com to take a look at it. It's a CDT tweeter with 4 spheres in a horizontal arrangement. I've heard Q1 2005 as the targeted release date. |
Do they have a matching centre speaker for the Ref 3's yet?
I'm thinking of using them in a multi-channel system. |
Just an update back to the really important feature in the speaker, THE SOUND. The literature suggests a break in period of around 100 hours. I think it states that it should be with vigorous play. For those of us who generally listen at less than vigorous levels, I can say the breaking was closer to 200 hours. WOW, what a difference once the brek-in took place though. The sound, surprisingly opens up in the lower registers without an additional bass amp. I'm actually wondering about the need for an additional amp. I love these speakers. I spent last night just marvelling at how complete my system now sounds, and how much of the music I can hear on every recording. |
One of my speakers' grill frame top cross member was also bent, whereas the other was not. Hard to tell if the frame or the speaker are out of kilter. Didn't bother me too much, because I prefer the look without the grill frame. |
Kalan.
Actually you illistarted my point, sort of. One of my speakers has the grill so that all of the lateral support cross memmbers are straight AND line up perfectly for inserting the threaded screws. The other, as described, did not. It seems the jig that they make these on is a little fickle, or, that the frames change shape once formed. I say the latter as after testing of one of my dealers grills that he assured me fit well when new, and had been placed asside for demo purposes, now does not fit well with the top cross member needing to be bent in to reach the column.
David |
Rolloff, if you mean by "... top lateral cross mount" the metal cross member that has a hole in it through which you secure the allan screw for the grill "cage," then I believe they are supposed to be bent.
Both of mine were curved or bent in a precise way to accommodate the distance difference between the cage and the curved main pillar. If you notice the middle back cross-member (for another allan screw) is also offset or slightly curved/bent. The bottom cross-member should be straight.
The top cross-member curve is much greater than the middle cross-member's curve. This all looks to be deliberate design to me. Unless, of course, I misunderstand your post. Wouldn't be the first time..... |
I purchased a pair about 2 weeks ago. They absolutely need braking in as everyone has said. Don't know how they sound with SS yet as I'm running tubes for now. Dissapointingly, someone at Gallo told me it will be until "at least" the end of the first quarter before the sub amps are available. Has anyone els had problems with the grill covers? One of mine was bent at the top lateral cross mount, I took it to the dealer and got one of his as a replacement and it too was slightlt deformed and difficult to apply.
Thanks,
David |
Vladimir, Thanks for your tip about the forward/back tilt. During the time when that extra forwardness came through with the Gallos, I had already tried tilting the speakers back with some improvement, but that did not address the heart of the issue.
I have solved the problem I was experiencing (and I think I mentioned re-tubing my amps and adjusting their bias differently making the biggest improvement in a post shortly afterwards.)
Since then, more break-in time has helped further--just as some posters said, and better placement in the room, etc. The 100-hour break-in recommendation is probably correct.
The Gallos two main strengths seem to be their ability to recreate a good approximation of the musicians' physical presence, and they have an engaging, musicality that focuses on the musical program's content rather than on HiFi.
Some of the Gallo reviews pretty much say that they are giant killers. I am not as sure as that. Unless I have not figured how to get the most of them---could be likely, I would say the Gallos are good at some things, but not everything. Like anything, listen carefully before you buy. |
That shouty quality usually occurs due to flutter echo, which comes from two parallel reflective surfaces in the room. If it is the side walls, or the ceiling/floor, then placing speakers in the room that have wider dispersion than previous speakers will fit with your experience. Obviously damping those surfaces or breaking them up, with a bookcase, a rug, a coffee table, etc can help. Also, moving a little closer to the speakers to get more direct sound can reduce the problem. |
"I still hear a fatiguing, forward, ("shouty") upper-mid prominence. Does anybody else have a similar problem with the Gallos?"
Kalan, if you read the BFS review, it says the Gallos are very critical of backward-forward tilt. More backward tilt and the sound becomes warm; more forward tilt and the upper-midrange and treble comes forward. Experiment with the adjustable spikes. |
I strongly believe that the Musical Fidelity amps were the culprits. The only MF amps that I've ever heard sound anything but harsh and shut in are the super-pricey TriVista line, and even then they're bettered by many components at half the price.
My last two (unfavorable) experiences with MF were with Dynaudio and B&W speakers. I wanted to hear the speakers, but instead the MF source components' weaknesses came through instead with a glaring high end and no soundstage. Switching the electronics in both cases actually gave me the demos I was looking for.
I advise you to go back to the dealer and see if they can switch something around for you to hear them again in a different light.
Graham |
Someone mentioned that a dealer once hooked up the Gallo Ref 3's incorrectly. The dealer did not notice that the binding posts have SINGLE wire hookups, NOT bi-wire, even though they look like bi-wire pairs of binding posts.
The top pair is the only pair you use from your main amplifier. The bottom pair is for the dedicated, sub amp input.
The dealer just hooked up the receiver's outputs to the lower binding posts (intended for the sub-amp in section).
Could this account for the "closed in" sound at the start of this thread? |
Also had another question... .these spearks are available with black or stainless accents and black/cherry/maple bases. I have only seen pictures of the stainless accent with the maple bottom. Has anyone seen or have pictures of the black accents and the maple bottom? |
Anyone of you guys bought the Ref IIIs to replace any Paradigm speakers? I currently have the Paradigm Active 40 and Active CC and am wondering if this setup would be an upgrade to what I have. Any comments will be appreciated.
Thanks |
