Fuses fuses fuses

Sorry, Al, I wasn’t addressing you specifically, though now that I think about it.... My response to your (silly) argument concerning precision of measurements, answer me this: why do the (small) measured differences ALWAYS correlate with the listening tests? It there was an issue with precision that would not be the case. Follow? It can’t be the fuse holders since the HiFi Tuning data didn’t measure the fuses in their holders. If they (and Roger Modjeski) HAD measured them in their holders, and came up with what you call insignificant differences or differences that are not precise that clearly means that your and Atmasphere’s theory of the fuse holders causing the differences must be wrong. Very wrong. Or did Atmasphere somehow measure more precisely than the Germans? Really?Assuming he actually did, which I'm now not so sure of. You can’t have it both ways. Capish? Another question: you haven’t really read the HiFi Tuning data sheets very carefully, have you? 😛

Time for a fuse measurements recap. Interpretation of measurements. All aboard!

INTERPRETATION OF MEASUREMENTS (HiFi Tuning data sheets)

(verbatim)

There is a measurable difference in directivity of fuses. Mostly that will be due to the way the melting wire is manufactured. The difference is in the range of 5 % . That is in the range of variations due to the factoring process, but the difference is measurable with all types of fuses.

The resistance of the fuse itself is dependent on the length and thickness of the melting wire. At pure DC- resistance measurements, of the commercial available fuses, the solder type with leads gives the best results. Worst results gives the fuse with a glass tube and spiral shaped melting wire.

The high end fuses all give better results in conductivity, the cryogenically treated fuses from HiFi-Tuning give the best results, while the rhodium coated fuse from Padis gives the highest DC- resistance.

For DC applications it ́s recommended to use the solder type fuse or the cryogenically treated fuses from HiFi-Tuning Germany.

The drop in resistance up to the factor of 8 is clearly measurable and also could be detected in listening test.

Fuses with a glass tube and a spiral shaped melting wire are additionally by a factor of 20 more sensitive to micro phonic effects. Fuses with a glass tube and a straight wire still by a factor of 5.

georgehifi
Of course engineers have measured fuses.

Not in the way you promote them, they wouldn’t be stupid enough.

Cheers George

>>>>>If you’re pretending to be dense you’re doing an excellent job. ( Juror #2 from 12 Angry Men)

Who do you think measured the directionality of fuses that are shown in the HiFi Tuning data sheets? Engineers. And they measured fuses in EXACTLY the way I promote them. I.e., conductivity is better in one direction than the other. Duh! 

Lee J. Cobb who played Juror #10 (the last holdout) was also great of course in On the Waterfront as mob boss Johnny Friendly. Also as Willy Loman in Death of a Salesman.

georgehifi
"I talked with a software engineer who also had a masters degree in electrical engineering. He said, "Let me look at it.""

About an hour later he came to me and said, "I’ve found the problem, let me show you." He had found a 250 kHz signal modulated onto the power sine wave.
You said it all buckhorn_cortez

He as an engineer measured and he found.
There’s non of that going on here with the pro side of fuses can sound better, also when they are reversed.

Cheers George

Are you feeling a little groggy this morning, George? Of course engineers have measured fuses. Don't tell me you didn't get the memo. You can go back to sleep now.

Floyd: It's Liberty! He - he's hurt

😛

Nothing like a fuse directionality thread to bring out the 12 Angry Men syndrome. One can't help worrying, geez, what the heck will these guys say when something really controversial comes up?

12 Angry Men memorable quotes

Juror #10: Don't give me that. I'm sick and tired of facts! You can twist 'em anyway you like, you know what I mean?

Juror #9: That's exactly the point this gentleman has been making.

Juror #10: You can't prove it!

Juror #2: You said we can throw out all the other evidence.

Juror #10: I don't understand you people! I mean all these picky little points you keep bringing up. They don't mean nothing!

Juror #3: You're talking about a matter of seconds! Nobody can be that accurate!

Juror #12: Oh, come on. Nobody can know a thing like that. This isn't an exact science.

Thanks for the concern, ruebent. As for myself, I’d be listening to fuses this weekend if I had any fuses.

bdp24
I’m bound to regret this, but just can’t resist. So, on one side we have Ralph Karsten and Roger Modjeski (as well as almarg and other posters here)---two of the best living audio engineers in the world (I obviously place value in "authority"), and on the other side those who claim fuses are directional. And the explanation for Ralph and Roger (and perhaps Al, etc.) disputing the even possibility of fuses being directional (AC being what it is) is that they are "deluded amp manufacturer(s)"? Ay carumba! Very fitting in these Trumpian days.

bdp24, you don’t even know what an Appeal to Authority is, do you? You cannot win arguments using the Appeal to Authority since not all authorities agree. Follow? You can’t cherry pick your authorities. 🍒 Truth is not established by who can shout louder than the other guy or who has the most perseverance or who has the best credentials. Actually, if I can be blunt about it, one need look no further than the owner of Audioquest to find a real authority on cables and wire who is a strong proponent of wire directionality. Wire is directional. All wire. His opinion trumps all the naysayers, amp manufacturers, whatever. Trump. Get it? The arguments against fuse directionality are a big nothing burger. 🍔

note to self: No one has disputed that cables are directional, you know the ones without shields. So, if they accept that cables are directional they must be getting close to getting on board the fuse directionality train. Really close. All aboard!! 🚇

Wow! It’s about time the intellectuals showed up. Welcome aboard, sailors!

Almarg, Roger appears to be just another outspoken but deluded amp manufacturer. Do you have a better example? 😬 Besides, you should know better than to use an Appeal to Authority. Does that work in court? Do you honestly believe that cable manufacturers who put arrows on unshielded cables are pulling a fast one on naive and gullible audiophiles? No need to answer, it’s a rhetorical question.

Atmosphere
"...fuse nor the fuse holder have perfect dimensions. As a result, there is a small amount of resistance at the contacts as the fuse sits in the holder. If you shift the fuse around you can reduce or increase that resistance. That is why they **appear** to be directional.

Now this is easy to measure. All you need is a DVM (Digital VoltMeter) and you simply measure the voltage drop across the fuse in the circuit. Its not going to be very much, so a DVM with more than 3 1/2 digits is helpful but not mandatory. If the fuse is in an open holder, you simply rotate it in the holder and you can watch the voltage drop across the fuse rise and fall. The least voltage drop is what you want."

>>>>>All we need? If it’s so easy to measure why don’t you or one of the other naysayers measure it? You’re just guessing. Why is it the folks that are already on board the fuse directionality AND Wire Directionality train are supposed to be the ones to measure it?

All wire is directional. Hel-loo! We Covered that in Fuses 101. More to the point HiFi Tuning data sheets already show the measured the differences in fuse direction. Not just their fuses, all manner of fuses, including stock fuses, ceramic fuses, cryo'd fuses. Guess what! It has nothing to do with the fuse holder. You act like this wire/fuse directionality thing is all new to you. The fuse holder argument can't save you in the cable directionality argument, now can it? These silly fuse Doubting Thomas threads have been going on for fifteen years. The wire directionality Doubting Thomases even longer, what, 25 years?

It doesn't take a genius to realize UL listing is for sissies.

I'm currently using a multi-stage set-up. Glass microspheres, constrained layer damping, and springs, all of which up on 3 Large DH Cones.

ebm
Good luck with after market fuses as i just talked to CJ and they are not UL approved so if your amp or preamp catches fire or your house burns down good luck.Plus i don’t think your preamp or amp might not be covered under the warranty food for thought.Fuses fuses fuses good luck though!!

Typical amp manufacturer thinking. How can the amp or preamp catch fire if the fuse blows? Duh! Aftermarket fuses have been around what, at least 15 years and we haven't lost anyone yet. Knock on wood.

 
davehrab
Theory is when you know everything and nothing works.

>>>>Another Gold Star!  🌠

Keep up the good work!

By the way, theory is also when you know everything but you never try anything.

Georgehifi
Maybe it should be moved to a new forum heading for things like this, called "Things we can't explain"

Well, at least "Things you and Al can't explain," anyway.

That's one of the primary functions of those silver type contact enhancers to fill in any micro gaps and establish a better more uniform contact surface between Mr. fuse and the fuse holder. I also suspect the silver plated fuse holder might have a smoother surface than a generic fuse holder but not completely sure about that. Better safe than sorry, just use the contact enhancer with the silver plated fuse holder. Why take chances?

You don't have a case, cowboy. 

Terry9
@geoffkait
"OK, so if it would be "very easy to test" how come none of you guys ever bother to test it? Talk is cheap."

Because I'm not making an assertion which goes against established physics. You are.

>>>I'll be the judge of that.

The onus of proof is on you.

>>>No, it's not. That's a very common misconception.

Acme Audio fuse holders, which I used to have back when I had fuses, are not only silver plated but cryo’d. Fuses should also be cryo’d for best results. Everything should be cryo’d. Almost all high end cable manufacturers routinely Cryo their cables. You have to if you want to compete in the marketplace.

Almarg, let me give you a little logic lesson if I can be so bold. Just because there are a lot of variables doesn’t mean that fuses are not directional. Capish? If you guys were really interested in the truth rather than arguing til you’re blue in the face you’d have done the experiment yourselves a long time ago. The other variables can be controlled. Like the placebo effect, whatever. Don’t you know that?

Note to self: Why do naysayers, the uber skeptics , the practitioners of uber careful pseudo logic always demand that believers must be the ones testing for fuse directionality? Why don’t naysayers test for themselves? Wouldn’t that be uh, more convincing for them? I mean, why would these uber skeptic’s even believe any test by a True Believer? It doesn’t make sense. Yet the demands for tests, especially the silly double blind ones. Give me a break! Tests are for sissies. My guess is the pseu-pseu-pseudo scientists don’t want to be found wrong and be the laughing stock of all the other self-appointed shepards of the pseudo audiophile flock. This whole anti fuse directionality movement is really a big nothing burger. 🍔

Terry9
I found Ralph’s explanation of the phenomenon to be convincing. And it would be very easy to test. Anyone who wanted to bother only needs to repeat the experiment many times with randomization, and count. I suggest a paradigm known as ’two alternative forced choice’. Elementary statistics would do the rest.

OK, so if it would be "very easy to test" how come none of you guys ever bother to test it? Talk is cheap. And if it takes a test to prove directionality how come you guys have made up your minds already? Who do you think is going to test it, NASA? Besides I’ve got a sneaking suspicion you guys would not believe or would find fault with any test and or test results presented to you, as long as the results were not in accordance with your preconceived notions of time and space - Just as you guys have with the test results of fuse directionality found in the data sheets on the HiFi Tuning website. Yeah, I know what you’re thinking, what test results? Right? You guys always seem to find some little nit to pick when the results don’t comport with your preconceived worldview. East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet.

davehrab
With regard to fuse direction I believe the 50% ... 50% ... 98% rule applies ... simply stated when ever an audiophile has a 50 / 50 chance of installing a fuse in the correct orientation ... 98% of the time he will select the wrong direction .. how else can you explain that anytime an audiophile installs a fuse and then reverses it ... there is always an improvement

I also think the test is flawed ... has anyone ever reversed the fuse an heard an improvement only to back test it by reversing the fuse again to see if the improvement is lost .. you know a simple ABA test ... never seen anyone post about that

Funny thing, in Audiophile circles if you can hear things others cannot, you are revered...In society you are sent for treatment.Enter your text ...

>>>>Gold Star for best post of the week! 🌠

charlesdad1
My experience with the SR Black fuses is similar to those of nonoise with his fuses. I listened to the fuses placed in one direction and then reversed this direction. Without fail there’s an undeniable change in the sound, not necessarily good vs bad, but "different ". One direction was very clear and "locked in ", the other had an "out of phase" character to it.

I don’t think there’s any need to pussy foot around here. Obviously - by YOUR own words - one direction IS better than the other. Sonically. It’s NOT as you say, "just different."

What the guy at SR meant when he said "try it both ways" is that the SR fuses ARE directional (as are all fuses) but you cannot tell which way is the right way to insert them just by looking at them. You can't go by the lettering and you can't go by arrows, if there are arrows. Thus, try them both ways and pick the one that sounds best. Ergo, fuses are directional.

almarg
Geoff’s statement above is correct. See the first of my posts dated 10-28-2016 in the long running "Synergistic Red Fuse" thread, in which I quote posts that have been made here by Ralph and several other designers of well regarded audio electronics on the subject of fuse directionality. I quoted Ralph’s comment (which had originally appeared in another fuse-related thread) as follows:

Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere:

"… Fuses are inherently incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever.

… I joined this thread recently with some results on testing. Those results are that the directionality appears out of coincidence and that actually greater improvement can be had by rotating the fuse in the holder for best contact…. Reversal is improving the contact area because fuse and holder are not dimensionally perfect and the fuse might sit better in the holder in one direction. By rotating the fuse in the holder without reversing it gets the same effect only more profoundly."

>>>>Whoa! What? If fuses are incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever why do almost all users of aftermarket fuses in the past 15 years report better sound when the fuse is in the correct direction? talk about ignoring evidence. Do you guys really think there’s some sort of audiophile conspiracy? Do you actually believe that it’s group hypnosis? The placebo effect? Expectation bias?

Ralph’s hypothesis of the fuse holder accounting for the improvement when fuses are flipped doesn’t hold water since if were true that fuses are not directional and the fuse holder was the key, then flipping the fuse and rotating it would lead to worse sound in many cases, not better sound. That is IF the fuse holder contact area differences were even AUDIBLE which I actually don’t think they are. Talk about grasping for straws. You might as well use the time honored naysayer argument that it's the oxide on the surface of the fuse holder being removed whilst flipping the fuse that accounts for the change in sound. 

 "Rotating affects the sound more profoundly than reversing it? Huh? I thought you guys didn't think there was any effect from reversing the fuse. How could something be more profound? Give me a break. Besides, the whole fuse directionality issue is rather moot in light of the fact were already know ALL WIRE is directional. We’ve known it for At least 25 years. So of course fuses - ALL FUSES - are directional. Hel-loo! This is all just a case where some folks didn’t get the memo and refuse to believe there ever was a memo. Who knows why.

In view of the overwhelming evidence in favor of fuse directionality AND wire directionality in general - not the least of which is the comprehensive data contained on the HiFi Tuning website. perhaps it’s best to put the fuse holder hypothesis to bed. Don’t let the bedbugs bite.

cheers,

geoff kait
machina dramatica
advanced audio concepts

gdnrbob
Oh, your are going to light fires, especially with that avatar ;)

Re: directional fuses, I recall Ralph at Atma-Sphere mentioning something, but I forgot the details. Though I think he said there was something to it. (If I am wrong Ralph, sorry).
B

I don’t want to put words in Ralph’s mouth, either, but I’m pretty sure he’s not really on board the whole fuse directionality train. His argument is (and I suppose he could possibly be accused of fence sitting on fuse directionality) that when someone flips the fuse it somehow magically gets a better grip in the fuse holder. Cough, cough  As I recall the other fence sitter Almarg agrees with Ralph in this regard.