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Focus 160 w/2 JL f113s vs. Focus 380 or C2 II

I've had my Dyanudio Focus 160's & 2 JL f113's for about three weeks now. No matter what I try, short of spending thousands of more dollars, I cannot get the subs to integrate, let alone not sound boomy. It's evidenced by the fact that the Dyn's are at their best sound when the subs are completely turned off. The problem is further compounded by the fact that i have an integrated amp from Simaudio (340i) that makes it exceedingly difficult to introduce any sort of room correction & or external crossover. So in order to try to get the subs to work I would I have to at minimum spend an extra ~$8000 (separate pre-amp & power amp of equal or higher quality & the mcintosh men220 [adjusted for trade-in value of 340i]).

I could try to go this route, and maybe they integrate, maybe they don't. Or, I could cut my losses now, & trade-in for the 380 or C2 sans the subs. My only major issue is that I primarily listen to various flavors of Electronic music, and a little Jazz. Electronic music uses the very low end of the audible frequency spectrum so often that it's absolutely necessary for any system to accurately go down to the bottom, other wise certain tracks will sound a bit anemic.

So, what would you fine fellows recommend? Go with a full range without subs, or stick with what i've got and try to integrate (am i giving up too soon)?

For what it's worth I will be auditioning the C2's and 380's later this week. And from a financial standpoint I would essentially be even if I took the 380's and would need to toss in an extra $3500 for the C2's [not accounting for the need for a more powerful pre-amp/amp set up].

Any input would be greatly appreciated!
coloneltushfinger
8 responses Add your response
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 
What are your room size and dimensions?

Where are the subs located relative to the Focus 160s?

What's the crossover frequency?

Have you run the JL EQ program?

Are you running the 160s full range or with a high-pass filter?

When you say you've "tried everything," what have you tried?

Although all JLs have fast rise times, for a stand-mounted speaker with an 85dB sensitivity I would have been more inclined to go with the F110.

As much as I like JLs, the B&W PV1D might have been a better match.
doggiehowser
672 posts
 
I've always maintained that subs are just incredibly fiddly to integrate with the mains. There's never a Goldilocks level: too hot or too cold, depending on the track I am listening to.

That is until I used Thiel's S1 Integrator and their Smartsub SS2. They work really well to augment the low frequencies without mucking about with the main speakers. They have phased the S1 out now which is a real shame cos it works very very well and I have used it with other brands of speakers and they work just as seamlessly, floor stander or bookshelves.

For music, you might be better off with the C2 or 380 as long as you have enough space around the speakers from the nearest walls.

That said, I thought the ARO for JL was supposed to help alleviate this problem? I use the f113 but only for home theatre so the AVP does the bass management.
coloneltushfinger OP
31 posts
 
I've attached a floor plan with the placement of the Speakers/Subs. As you can probably tell I have very little artistic talent.

http://i.imgur.com/1MHfqpf.jpg

Up until earlier today I crossed it at 80hz, then started experimenting and now it's crossed at 35hz, 12db slope, -8dB on the elf trim. To be honest it sounded better at 80hz.

I have run the JL EQ program, a few times actually. The last time I ran it there was some decent improvement.

The 160's are being run full range. I have yet to find a way to cut them off. The Simaudio 340i has proved problematic in this regard.

Everything: I've tried dozens upon dozens of different settings on the JLs, I've moved around the setup as much as possible (movie the Dyns further from the wall have definitely helped with soundstage & the midrange not the subs though).
doggiehowser
672 posts
 
My personal preference is never to run another crossover in front of the main speakers and prefer to run them in full range.

The S1 works by telling the sub integrator where the main speakers fall off. What frequency does the speaker drop off in reproducing. Is the slope based on a ported or sealed speaker design, and also your power amp gain/speaker sensitivity. It then calculates what the sub needs to reproduce to fill in the gap. The Thiel is unique in that it doesn't need a mic to calibrate. The subs need to have 2 numbers dialed in. How far they are from the nearest wall. That's it. And the S1, you just key in the data from the speaker/amp manual.

I thought the ARO does the same thing but using a mic so it can be a bit harder to dial in? I think the Velodyne SMS-1 can do something similar.
xti16
1,525 posts
 
Up until earlier today I crossed it at 80hz, then started experimenting and now it's crossed at 35hz, 12db slope, -8dB on the elf trim. To be honest it sounded better at 80hz.
As a C1 owner with a Rel B3 I found the integration to be somewhat time consuming. First I want the sub to pick up where the C1's drop off - not add to it. For starters I would say you need to get the timing/phasing just right. You don't want the sub to lead or lag the mains. Since my Rel's phase switch is only 0 or 180 degrees I had to physically move the sub closer or farther to get it to blend in. I would also start with just 1 sub and get it right (because all Dyn's do sound great all by themselves but do need a little help in the lowest of octaves). Then work on the gain. Once it is integrated properly you shouldn't be able to hear where the sub is. But the hard part here is what is right. Most recordings don't go that low and if you increase the gain to compensate for what is not there you will have too much for the recordings that do go that low. At least that is what I found. Now add the second sub and repeat the process (starting with the timing/phasing) making sure sub #2 doesn't cancel out sub #1. Then go back and adjust the gain.

A second option would be to get an external crossover and cut the 160's off at 80hz and have the subs pick it up from there. Again the timing/phasing still has to be right to sound good.

That being said if you go the 380 or C2 MKII you will probably want to upgrade the Sim 340i.

Best of luck what ever you decide.
ejlif's avatar
ejlif
1,370 posts
 
I've tried subs probably 5 different times and 4 of those 5 were pretty frustrating. I have a REL sub sitting in corner right now next to my C4s turned off. I feel your pain. Personally if it were me I would go for full range speakers. It's so easy to drive yourself nuts and second guess and keep turning the volume up and down and one track sounds OK and the other sounds boomy and on and on. I've owned a lot of Dynaudio speakers and even the stand mounts are pretty strong in the bass. It all depends on the room to how the bass will be. If you have free run of the room to move your chair or speakers anywhere you want and the patience to do it then you could probably eventually make it work with the subs. Sounds like you are at the end of your rope though and my advice would be to step up to the C2s or C4s. If your room is small then maybe you will need a more powerful amp. Simaudio and Dynaudio go very well together. Did you ever think of the S5.4? I have not owned those but did a lot of research before I got he C4s and many said they are very strong in the bass
coloneltushfinger OP
31 posts
 
Doggiehowser: The ARO is a useful, albeit marginally helpful, tool. It will smooth out the one worst peak in the room. If there's more than just one, or if there's any dips, you're SOL.

Xti16: Part of the problem may also be the configuration of the system & my listening position (see picture in OP). I might just be too close to the back wall. I'm thinking about reconfiguring the room a bit so the system sits on the wall attached the balcony, so that the sound has more room to move. The problem with the external crossover is that I have yet to find one that would work with the 340i. If you have any recommendations of an external crossover that would work with the 340i's limitation, I would be eternally grateful.

Ejlif: Yeah, i've done some moving around but not as much as I should. I'm going to try to configure the room to try to take advantage of the width (which is considerably bigger than the length). That way i'm not sitting next to a back wall & a corner.
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