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Financial Limits of Tube and Op Amp Rolling

Yesterday I watched a YouTube reviewer review the Apos Gremlin. While he did talk about the Gremlin, the review was as much about tube rolling as it was about the Gremlin. Sorry. For those not acquainted with the device, I should have stated that the Gremlin is an entry level headphone amp that the retailer, Apos, collaborated on (I don't recall who the collaboration was with). Let me set the table. When I say entry-level I'm talking about a roughly 5"x3" device with an acrylic base and top (the four sides are open) and separated with brass colored standoffs, that is 100% balanced (no SE inputs or outputs), spartan HPA that is shipped with Ray Core Tubes for $120. Yes, $120. This is not meant to be a knock on the Gremlin. I have it and like it a lot. I like it better than my Woo Audio WA3 as far as tube HPAs go.

My befuddlement was because the reviewer was rolling matched sets of tubes (the Gremlin takes two 12AU7 tubes) that cost more than the Gremlin itself. Multiple sets of tubes costing more than the Gremlin. Is it just me? Am I the only one that thinks that there is something wrong with spending more on the tubes than you spend on the device that you're putting them in? I'm including op amp rolling because I've seen reviewers do the same thing with op amps. Why? To me, if I were going to spend that kind of money ($150-$200) rolling tubes, I would first spend more on the device. I'm thinking roughly, at a minimum, $800.

In my mind I can't justify spending more than about 1/4 of the cost of the device rolling tubes or op amps. What is the utility of spending more on rolling than you do in the device? Does it seem like a logical way to spend your money? Is it less about the practicality and more about the experimentation? That's the only thing that comes to mind.  I'm not doubting that you can make sonic improvements, or at least sonic differences, via rolling, but to me it's not a logical act in how they are investing money in doing so.

Sorry for the rant. I just had to say something after watching that review. But seriously, I want to know how others feel about how much to spend rolling tubes and op amps. What are your thoughts on the financial limits? Do yo have a limit? What is your limit?

Thanks.

mcraghead
buellrider97's avatar
buellrider97
565 posts
 

+1 @dogearedaudio , Outstanding share, thanks. I bought a Had Inspire 6 years ago. I think it was about $1600 at the time. I spent about $3K on tubes for the amp over a 2-3 year period. The enjoyment I had experimenting far outweighed the cost. My sweet spot is a Tekefunken E88CC, NOS RCA Coke Bottle Rectifier, and NOS GEC KT 66 or KT88’s. Given all the exotic tubes I purchased Dennis recommended JJ KT-77’s, they’re actually pretty nice. Every time I tried new tubes it was like Christmas. 

kennyc
1,913 posts
 

What are your thoughts on the financial limits? Do yo have a limit? What is your limit?

Seems your thinking is one and done, but for many of us we're on a continual journey of discovery within our budgets.  Also, thinking of just tube or op-amp as a separate budget item is not useful, they fall under the umbrella of our budget for this hobby in general.  

mcraghead OP
19 posts
 

LOL! I can see where it might appear that I have been one and done. I guess in terms of responses I have been, but I have been following the thread with bated breath (I learned "bated breath" in an English class a gazillion years ago, and though it's not part of my typical vernacular (I guess I learned a few things in class), it fits this situation). In this particular instance "bated breath" is appropriate  

Many a time I started to write a response and held back for fear that my words might not come across as intended. I think for some my original post already did. I will put those fears aside and share some additional thoughts anyway...

It seems that some of the posters in this thread may have taken my words not as intended. I wasn't by any means trying to tell anyone how or what they can spend their money on. It's their money and they can spend it however they see fit, whether I would spend my money that way or not. And I'm also very aware that this is, or can be, an expensive hobby. I spend plenty. So I wasn't trying to minimize that either. 
 

For me, as another poster stated much better than I, it's about proportionality. I just can't see spending as much, or more, on tubes as the amp. If I want to experiment with tubes I would start with a better base. I'm the first to admit that I am a novice when it comes to tubes/valves, so I believe others when they say that tubes make the biggest difference. However, I'm not of the belief that the rest of the platform doesn't matter. If that were the case the people wouldn't by more expensive tube based equipment. If I'm going to spend ungodly sums on tubes, the I'm likely to spend ungodly sum on the platform from which those experiments will be conducted. But that's just me. 
 

Maybe the issue is that I am not a tube person. I don't have anything against tubes, but I just haven't heard anything yet that makes me a tube first person, even though I would seriously like an ampsandsound Mogwai SE. Also, my statement, while it was initiated by a video involving tube rolling, I also stated my feelings apply to op amp rolling as well. At least with op amp rolling there is no ungodly amount of money.  Better op amps are just expensive. 🙂

Like I said, I've been following, and I still find the discussion interesting even though most haven't said if they have a limit or what that limit might be. It also seems that my post seems to have attracted a tube crowd and not many interested in op amps. 
 

Anyway, thanks to all of you that have taken the time to share your thoughts and opinions. I appreciate it. 
 

i really should have replied via my computer and not my phone. Typing this has been painful. Please forgive any typos or grammatical errors. It's probably just as painful to read. LOL!

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