"Will treating room help in reducing excessive sibilance and edge? Besides equipment mismatch etc etc...what causes a room to "sound" that way?"
You should list your entire system. Room treatments can only do so much with high frequencies. Even if you get your room is treated properly, HF's are directional. The tweeters are pointed right at you with nothing in between. Unless you are willing to put something in front of them, there's not much you can do.
With a situation like this, its much better to fix the problem directly, instead of forcing the rest of your system to conform around some flaw. |
I'm pretty sure that you are going to have to fix this with equipment. I'm not familiar with the tweeter that your speaker uses. I've never heard silk dome horn, so I can't comment on it. I do see some potential problems with certain parts of your system. Your CD player is excellent, but they don't call it Resolution Audio for nothing. Its a very detailed CD player and its not forgiving. If you play a bad recording, you will definitely hear the bad and the good equally. Normally, I don't like to recommend cables to fix problems, but your Supra 3.4 Ply is almost certainly not helping any. Its one of the more fast, detailed, bright, etc.. cables you can get. If you can somehow try a different pair of cables, you definitely should. Also, given your amp is only 18 watts, its very possible you are working them too hard. When an amp is straining, it becomes very difficult to listen to. You may have to get something more powerful. |
"Silk dome tweeters are 'slow'. They stretch out the HF resulting in your issue. Soft and sibilant, and therefore with an edge. Aluminum, Beryllium, Titanium, Mylar. For in-between, Phenolic is a good compromise. Soft tweeters suck!
"
Are you kidding? |
"08-29-14: Csontos
I think you misunderstood me there. I gave a list of the opposite of 'soft'."
I'm pretty sure I didn't understand what you were saying. Is it that you think soft dome tweeters sound harsh and have a lot of sibilance, and that metal tweeters do not? |
"Sibilance as I may erroneously understand it is a lack of transient precision or clarity."
Sibilance is a subjective term so it can vary a bit from person to person. I don't think your statement is wrong, just incomplete. Sibilance (vocal) is when there is an unnatural emphasis on certain sounds when spoken. Words that start off with letters like S, C, K, T are the most common to be effected by sibilance type of distortion. Most people describe the sibilance they hear as harshness that definitely is not natural sounding. If you were to take a recording of someones voice and play it on a system that you hear sibilance on and compare it to what the person actually sounds like in real life, you should not here sibilance. One thing to keep in mind is that sibilance can be caused by any number of things. Things like metal tweeters can enhance it, but sibilance can be on the recording itself. Given that, you can definitely hear it on "soft" sounding gear like tubes and speakers with soft tweeters. You almost have to deal with it on a case by case basis. That's what makes it so frustrating.
"Sibilance as I may erroneously understand it is a lack of transient precision or clarity."
Looking at your definition again, it may make more sense to not say a lack of precision or clarity, but too much precision or clarity. The result being unnatural.
Keep in mind, this is just the way I explain sibilance. No doubt, others will add more to it, and possibly disagree with me on some points. Its subjective. |
"Defining sibilance as too much precision or clarity seems a bit oxymoronic, though. How can you have too much?"
Again, its a subjective term and not everyone will explain it the same way. But in the above case, a good example would be a microscope. Just as you would bring forth detail that you would not normally see with the naked eye, an audio system has the potential to reveal more detail than you would hear naturally. For example, most vocals are recorded with microphones that are very close to the singer. So in reality, unless someone is talking or singing directly into your ear, you have the potential to hear much more detail in the recorded voice than you would under normal conditions where the person would be much further away.
If you look at the playback side of the equation, the problem can be further enhanced by component choice. I've always felt that one of the reasons sibilance is so annoying on speakers that have metal tweeters, is the fact that there are no parts of our bodies that are made out of metal. Its very difficult to make a metal speaker driver have the timbrel accuracy needed to reproduce the human voice when the materials that we are made of are so vastly different than metal.
Keep in mind though, as I said before, I'm just giving a couple of examples based on my own subjective judgment and that the issue of sibilance is a much broader topic than I'm going over here.
"By saying HF are being stretched to sibilance with soft tweeters to me is more accurate since distortion is after all the result which is in the end a loss of original content/experience."
That's a very good example of how subjective this topic can be. When you say that high frequencies are stretched to sibilance with soft tweeters, I have a hard time visualizing what you are referring to. But that doesn't mean you're wrong. Its very difficult to describe in words how something sounds. |
"The microscope analogy is a predetermination by the recording venue and therefore the effective original. Whatever it is is the playback goal. I don't see how that relates to this topic. I think you are misplacing subjectivity with communication."
Again, its all subjective, but it relates to the topic because regardless of how the sibilance occurs, people are going to want to try and fix it. (At least the people that are bothered by it. I have friends that don't mind it in the least). Personally, I don't think my example is a predetermination by the recording venue and therefore the effective original. The reason for that, is vocal sibilance is not a natural occurrence. Its a product of the recording/playback chain.
What speakers use mylar ribbons? I don't think I've ever heard one before. I tried Magnepans, but they were way too sibilant for me. lol. |
"You used the microscope analogy as a bigger than life product as it would relate to a recording."
Now I get what you are saying. I didn't mean it like that. I was thinking in terms of distance or proximity. For example, when a voice is very closely miked, its kind of like having someone very close to you, talking directly into your ear. Its not natural, or normal even. Since you hear so much more detail, I thought a microscope was a good example.
"Being closer to the subject doesn't necessarily conclude with sibilance."
Your absolutely right. You don't have to get sibilance just because you are close. I do feel, however, that the chance of sibilance occurring does increase in situations of close proximity. But even then, results can vary. Different equipment, room, personal taste, etc.., will all play a part.
"In any case, ime it's been a lack of performance on the amp's part that has been bothersome to me as far as sibilance is concerned. If an amp isn't fast enough to negotiate the important consonants to life like realism, it's a poor design no matter what else it's good at imo."
At least you know where the problem lies. Sometimes its very difficult to pin down the source of the problem. It can be any component, not just the speakers.
"I should say mylar on aluminum foil such as those on my Kappa 9s. Or the solid mylar domes on the Kef 105s."
I thought you may be referring to those folded ribbon tweeters that some companies are now using. Martin Logan is probably the best example. The tweeters on your Kappa 9's look similar to the ribbon tweeters that Genesis used. |
"08-31-14: Davehrab
JMO ... Pc123vÂs syllabus and edginess issues are in the mid treble region between 2500 and 5000hz ... they are being created by excessive energy in that region ringing longer than normal ... this is referred to as Long or Extended RT60 or Decay times ... the note just keeps on ringing"
"Simple test put on a set of head phones and if the syllabus is still there ... itÂs your equipment"
Unless you have actually heard the OP's system, I don't see how you can be so sure its a room issue. Also, the test you list isn't a bad idea, but it is incomplete. If you use headphones, you won't be able to hear the speakers, poweramp, cables and possibly the preamp (depends on the signal path to the headphone amp). If you really want to rule out the room, a much better way to do that is to try the system in a different room and see if the problem still remains. Its more work, but it won't cost anything. |
