6550c, their are 2 kinds of invertors.....True Sine Wave and the 'others'. The 'others' would seem to be pretty noisy, but are good in your car for powering laptops, charging your cell phone or a map light. True sine wave inverters with even modest power conditioners will make good, clean power.
Al 'Where's my corporate Jet?' Gore uses an astronomical amount of electricity at his house, even after the solar retrofit and alleged improvements. Of course, it is a pretty large house with staff, but the per capita usage is still wacky high. |
Government policy has a LOT to do with this issue.
IF there were huge tax credits for say.....home methane production, you'd see more of it.
Likewise, an increase in the tax on fuel for cars would tend to decrease the amount used and 'push' those who could afford it, toward higher mileage cars.
One factor in all this 'green' stuff I've not heard mentioned is the environmental cost of this conversion. Solar Cells, for example, are manufactured using many of the techniques also used by semiconductor manufacturers. The material used for these cells is CZ grown silicon which is a very energy intensive process. |
Macdad,
I'm afraid that government policy is involved, like it or not.
My electric bill is for say.....450KwH per month. Let's just say I could buy a methane genset of 1000KwH per month capacity. The rules make it mandatory that the power company 'buy' my power. However, they never cut me a check, but use my power to 'offset' my bill. So, I could have a ZERO bill and make the power company money.
Change the rules and make 'em PAY me cash, and the game changes.
Likewise tax incentives / rebates. If the unit costs 20,000$ it'll take me a LONG time to justify the cost thru traditional payback analysis. This is strictly a money calculation. But, if I can sell my power for cash or get a lot of money from the government till, than the equation changes.
If your statements about being less expensive and lower marginal cost are correct, than it is indeed a game changer. However, the other side is that you are now a 'power company' and may have additional rules / licensing and taxation to contend with. Maybe if you stay off-grid?
Point is, the Power Utilities simply won't take this laying down.
I remember a couple summers ago when Enron was SCREWING California by selling our electricity back to us for some wacky rate that FERC did absolutely NOTHING. (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission) ......
This is, however, after all is said and done, a technology to keep track of. |
FERC was supposed to have a say in interstate sales of power....thus the F in FERC. As I understand the Enron scam, they were moving power around and once it went 'out of state' they could get (demand) some pretty high prices.
Yes, California screwed themselves royal, and I'm still paying the price. The NIMBY delegation is even fighting some improvements....like a new power line to be strung from N to S.
I was using the solar sell-back model as an example. Here in California, we are a 'net metering' state. Except for my NEW electronic meter......Which won't go 'backwards'. You can never make a dime, but can actually Zero your bill. some places my insist on a connection fee. A precedent exists for a person who wanted NO power or utilities but was billed anyway...for the connection. I believe he lost in court, but he may have prevailed. I think that was in NYC.
Doesn't change the fact that government policies effectively influence events thru taxation, rebates, tax breaks and other....some often subtle incentives.
Watch home ownership rates if they take away the home mortgage interest rate tax deduction. I may make a difference. We'll see...perhaps.
Since the methane energy production is a 'demand' system, yes indeed, no excess to sell back, unless you tell it to overproduce and you are still on the grid. To remove yourself from the grid here in a small, Southern California town would probably be some kind of regulatory nightmare. No telling where that would lead, but I'll guarantee it'd be a hassle. |
Exactly. It's not as if the virtues of this new technology will prevail simply because of 'greeness' or 'inexpensive'.
Lots of forces will be arrayed against this technology. As Mac states, lots of 'big' (pick your favorite) may favor it...since they will still be in the sales loop, but the IPPs? They are going to have a meltdown....and here in California, we have aggressive state supported research added to the mix.
I'm going to ask the city what it takes to go 'off grid' electrically. I'll bet that even if they GAVE me the methane system, it'd still cost a bundle. Who knows what loops you may have to jump thru? Do you have to have some kind of environmental report? Will you need to be permitted as a power producer? It may be easier out of the city or in county. The Indian Reservations will also get a vote, if they want it.
I like the technology....I did some light reading. If I could lease a small house-size unit...of say 400kwh capacity per month, then I'd love to see how it worked.
But, it ain't gonna be easy. |
Here is link to Bloom Energy.
The 'Electricity Server' idea is pretty neat. The Unit in question is of manageable size, but certainly, at 100kw of 'neighborhood' size not individual home.
http://www.bloomenergy.com/products/data-sheet/
Leaving the current wiring in place and having a grid of these guys would theoretically work.
I wonder how well this idea scales up or down? Could it be made even semi-portable? Or how about a 5 or 10kw size for marine or jobsite use? |
I wish you COULD make silicon solar cells from sand. While sand may be part of the raw materials, the silicon is extremely pure and has to be 'grown' as a pure crystal, usually using the CZ method.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czochralski_process
This is a pretty energy intensive process. Solar cells take a while to 'pay back' this energy investment. |
I simply can't argue with your numbers.
What KIND of silicon does LDK product? Poly? Single Crystal? It matters and makes a big difference.
Solar cells are NOT a panacea cure. They are fairly simple devices but DO require a very pure form of crystal silicon, though there ARE polycrystalline cells of lower efficiency. Polysilicon is easier to make.
Single crystal is grown by the CZ method which is pretty energy intensive, not to mention process critical. The silicon ingots are grown to the approximate diameter of the production line using them....In the old days 3" diameter was common while today? I've seen 8" wafers, but larger are in use.
Poly crystalline are less efficient at electricity production but also less energy and labor intensive to produce.
Once you have the raw material in 'wafer' form, cells are manufactured using techniques and tools familiar to any wafer fabrication worker, engineer or technician.
The other downside to solar cells is that they are less effective as they warm. I don't know the 'derate' for temperature, but hot, sunny desert places are not necessarily the best place for a solar farm. Especially in the summer!
That being said, solar will continue to be a player in the energy future. Both photovoltaic and using solar to heat water......basically a steam boiler run by sunshine.
Wind power where appropriate works well, too. Out near Palm Springs I've driven by several thousand wind generators. Up close, they make a real cool sound which is kind of eerie.
Thermal power from the ground /vulcanism. Biofuels.
They will all be around for a while in various uses.
Not that it matters, but I think Bloom Energy with the 'server' idea is pretty cool. Quiet, with an unknown upside potential, they may be useful. |
Man, that is a HUGE capacity.
I tried making the numbers work for solar. Can't do it. Based on my monthly usage of <450kwh, the payback is so far over the horizon as to be a non-starter. All the fixed costs add up quickly and the fact that even at about 100 watts per square yard, I wouldn't need THAT many panels, it simply won't pay back while I'm still alive.
California is a 'Net Metering' state and they are REQUIRED to purchase your power, but only to the extent it offsets your bill. So, you'll never make a nickel, but could theoretically have ZERO electric bill.
My NEW electronic meter won't run backwards like the old meter. I'd like to hear what they have to say about getting my old meter back if I intended to 'Go Solar'.......
I'll give that a try and report back. |
As near as I can 'figger' the best practice today is having a small inverter at EACH panel. Then you worry about AC from then after without the losses associated with DC.
Sync of inverter frequency may be an issue?
Your reference panel is about 2600 sq inches or over 18 sq feet....this is 2 square yards and quite in line with my 'rule of thumb' of 100 watts per square yard.
Polysilicon is MUCH less expensive than single crystal. In my application, when I need it most is summer when the AC kicks in most. I would love to see the 'derate' of this panel and see what it'll do in 90f weather. I also, in the summer, can count on somewhat more than 5 hours per day. I'd have to consult an 'expert' with all the local data for better than 'guess' numbers.
Now, assume I use 15kwh per day. I'd need to get most of that back in say.....8 hours in summer so I'd need nearly 2000 watts of panel, counting the derate. Maybe those 10 panels would get me there....maybe not. Winter would be another story and I may be able to count on only 5 or 6 hours, plus the inevitable 'weather loss'. So, to deliver 450 kwh in a month 'worst case', I'd need a few more panels. Maybe more than a few......I'll have to sit down and run some more serious numbers.
Point is, if I plan for worst case....that being the least amount of sun, I'll need more panels than run a surplus during the summer. That may be best, but not necessarily for me.
One PLUS for me is that one big flat side of my roof faces south and west. The MINUS is that I have a large slope in back. The sun sets on the highest part of the slope in winter and the lowest part in summer.....and since the sun 'moves' its point of set, is always in between those 2 points.
If I could go 'all in' for any less than 15,000$ I'd be surprised. Even if I got back say.......5,000$ in kickbacks, tax breaks and incentives, I'd still have to figure out how long it'd take me to use that much electricity. 100$ per month for 100 months....that's a tick over 8 years.....Better than I thought, but I'd still like to see some real numbers.
Maybe I could afford that class 'a' Pass amp, after all!
I'm also going to call SDGE next Monday, and spin a story. I'll tell 'em I've got one of there electronic meters and intend to go solar. The 'new' meter won't go backwards so It's either cut me a fixed benefit deal or give me my old meter back. Just to shake the tree, you understand. |
I'd be just checking with the power company. I'm not going to go solar, but I'm just curious what they'll say. The push is on in Southern California for 'smart' metering. This is a prelude to charging differential rates based on time of day.
Name something the government doesn't have there hand in?
As a matter of 'public policy' and wanting 'green' I'm afraid that tax money will go to those changing over to solar and maybe even other technologies. Aren't there even some subsidies for certain 'green' cars?
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If I understand California law....big IF, we are a 'Net Metering State' . This means they are required to 'buy' my power if I have extra. Meter runs both ways and I pay the difference if it is a positive number and don't get back a penny if it's negative. Sort'a me giving power away.
The new rat-fink electronic meter does not run backwards. That's why I'm going to call and make a minor stink about installing solar. just stirring the pot, you understand.
Here where I live, 90f+ is a couple weeks a year. 100+ doesn't happen every year. Typical daytime temp is in high 80s for summer months. 95% of the time, it drops below 70f at nite....so I can open windows. |
The 'new' electronic meters do not support net metering.
Were I to install solar, SDGE would reinstall an analogue meter until such time as the electronic meter could support net metering.
No a bit of pushback when I asked the questions.....I think that is fair.
I suspect this would also apply to anyone who could permit (get one, that is) one of the Bloom units. |
