At the moment I am moving 1000kms to my new home in western France...otherwise you would be welcome to visit. Intuition tells me that you live within driving distance.
I have owned almost every large Japanese highend turntable, supplied 5 Technics mk3's for famous USA project/products...lol...and had a few nice EMT machines.
I am currently planning a 5 way architectural horn system using Audio Note compression drivers, so this will be a good test for allcomers. I have around 2/3 of the components.
The MK3 is a good turntable but the hype surrounding it has grown exponentially over the last 3 years. The prices paid now are very high, although they do reflect an ongoing move away from more risky audio assets (like gold and silver)! :) Perhaps they also reflect the relatively mediocre performance of more modern equipment...
Depending on rarity I certainly would not pay over the odds for a 927...I think you have my private email.
Bourse. |
Hi Bourse,
thanks a lot. This is a very valuable assessment, also extending to the Technics SP10 MKIII and the results which I would underline as well, having tested a MK II in my set-up (not a MK III yet).
I will be ready for my final assessment at around 20th of March.
is it possible to watch your set up somewhere? |
Hi Thuchan
Sure, I have had the chance to compare these tt's. I think I wrote to you once about them.
The 927 could be said to be 'more musical' than the Micro Seiki 8000. The Seiki gives a more incisive performance, the 927 interprets the music in a different way. Taken differently it is easy to see why either turntable would be a serious contender for anyone's setup...depending on their sonic preferences.
After all, most hifi is a specific interpretation of the original sound...rarely is anything 100% pure signal, but you know this.
The Pioneer P3A system is a similar turntable to the EMT, above the performance of any Technics sp-10mk3. I have one running with an Audio Note IO-Ltd.
As a complete system the 927 is really cool...the resonances and input/output sensitivities are all calculated for you. Its a fit and forget monster.
:) |
I would be cautious when securing any EMT R80 or 927. the guys who have them tend to hold onto them....so those out there are hard to come by or there is a reason attached.
The last ebay ones were in very bad condition. Remember that the 927 has the dedicated PS for the EMT 139st Phono stage (it must have that...). Many capacitors in these parts and yes they can be upto 60 years old so stable DC to the all important phono cannot be guarenteed let alone the phonos stage equalizing circuits (3 in all as you can choose).
Two ways in my view: get a low priced one and have it serviced by Dusch or get a serviced one. FYI I have taken both routes and in all honesty they come out to approx the same amount. Another alternative is the Thuchan route taking on the TT part and not using the phono. Then Van Vliet makes the replica EMT 139st that I have heard and you would be hard pressed to tell any difference with an original that I have. VV also does a PS for it so this is an alternative to house in a 927 or R80 TT base.
Many routes I guess....but it will cost serious money to jump onboard. But what is serious? Think the price of a good familly car.....or for Europe verging towards 2 X the average annual salary. Add to that the increased buying of records....the "necessary" cartridges TSD15, TMD25 and for the hardcore 78ers one of the 65 range....
In my books? Best thing I ever did and wished I had done it earlier.
All fun! |
Dear Baranyi,
the question is how much would you like to spend .
in Japan you might follow Yahoo and you see it is in between a range of 35-60T$, depending whether it is fully equipped 927 with a phono stage, tube, mono, stereo, Ortofon arm, EMT arm etc.
As Channel10 mentioned the value is continously rising. So if you intend to keep the value you do the right thing. |
what do the well cared for EMT 927 turntables sell for these days? Bob |
Dear Channel10, this hobby is all about learning, experimenting and assessing. If I meet guys addicted to a certain church and looking for new church members I am always suspicious. It might feel well being welcomed in an audio church as it does in a therapeutic group. My target is always keeping independent from the so called gurus or any misguided influence. In reality it is sometimes hard to detect what is going on.
Nevertheless I do count neither you nor Soundlistening as a guru but a well informed (by your own experience) audio enthusiast & expert, maybe also on special fields. The discussions with you - and we do it since three years - was and is a very fruitful one. Having said that I still have to be convinced by my own ears that the 139st will beat some of my separate phono stages. Therefore I am looking forward to the big experiment we will do in May. |
Hi Thuchan,
I`m glad you have `seen the light`.There has always been negative views of vintage gear,mostly from dealers and manufacturers who are trying to push lesser products at higher prices.Vintage?,Ha,not Hi-Fi,too expensive,common comments.You now have hands on experience of an EMT;Have a look at the prices been charged for some `high-end`turntables,and the build qaulity;how much would an EMT927 cost in todays market?,100K,200K,more?
A top example is not cheap,but is still a bargain compared to what is currently available.
As for the phono stage,the 139st is highly sought after and commands high prices on the second hand market,(9K).It and the EMT are designed as a unit,and I have not heard better.But you know my stance.See you in May!
best wishes |
"A Garrard 301 is a good Austin Minicooper".
Thuchan, you said it right and I do agree with you 100%. |
Soundlistening,
I am very thankful for the good advices on EMTs I received from you.
I am wondering why people have written a lot of nonsense which led to an image that Studio EMTs are non musical machines just being used to transport a quick & dirty signal into the air.
These guys of today do not know anything about the Radio Stations and the Studio Work of the 60ies and 70ies managed by people who loved their work and were addicted to quality.
I am often confronted with the opinion that those vintage studio tables are not designed for home audio users and do provide features which no one needs today. This is nonsense again and I could discuss it in detail. Of course some of the features did support fast access and easy adjustments, the latter maybe a no nonsense invention.
Heiner Jacobi writes in Sound Practices, Issue 16: the 930 sounds similiar to the 927 but with less authority and more speed. It is the question of whether you prefer to drive a top Mercedes or a top BMW! - A Garrard 301 is a good Austin Minicooper.
Maybe this funny comparison hits the mark a little. |
Thuchan,
Have you tried the 927 with the plexiglass-plate? That does decrease the weight. Some people say that glass on platters is "wrong" but the studio turntables EMT 927 were delivered for the disc-recording industry as a measurement studio turntable the EMT 927 D equipped with a glass-plate instead of a plexiglass-plate.
When you tap on the plexiglass-plate it is not that solid, a bit flimsy to be honest. Okay it offers the added brake, but know needs that at home??? The total mass of the platter is not that high even with the glass platter plate, much less that our cherished SX8000s. I have from good sources learned that the 1st R80s platter was heavier, that the 927s were even less than the R80 and the last 927s even less.
I would like to talk about a few other aspects that are, from my modest perspective, important.
1) The torque of the motor: This is one 3-phase workhorse and when you attempt to slow the platter with your hand you see how strong the drive is. Do this on a belt drive and.....you know! When done on a Garrard you can slow it quite easy, and other idler drives are in same category. The 927 has a huge torque and power and as such does offer a great control on rotation. Once documented you realize that the 927 offers rotational stability that is amazing, in fact far greater that that of the TT used for the record making!
2) Bearings of the idler mechanism: Look at those bearings and levers...this offers very solid and stable basis for the power and stability of the motor to get to the platter
3) Distance of idler from stylus: Well the 927 was made for 16 records but we only use them on 12 or 10 (those good mono ones!) and this offers another advantage; the stylus is further away from mechanical contact point of the idler and the inside of the platter.
4) Chassis construction: The cast aluminium is a very solid and high mass base for the tone arm. The fact that the motor is mounted on isolation supports prevents it from transmitting energy to the tone arm. The motor is overpowered; the variations in drag generated in the groves do not strain the motor and introduce the potential adverse consequences.
5) The bearing: It is large diameter and very long offering an extremely stable foundation. Apparently the next best thing is a Neumann lathe that the ultra hard core analogue boys use as a TT, your next step?
But to conclude: All of this means nothing in reality. The 927 sounds spot on. Is that objective or subjective? We always attempt to come to rational answers to understand why, I offered some above. The rarity of the 927 (and even more so the R80) make these hard to come by. Many have not been serviced and show the toil of time, I have seen quite a few of those! Thuchan, we both went for fully serviced and as per factory specification machines that work as they were designed, this is the only way to go and it requires a particular dedication. You know that I jumped into the "927" following advice from around the world and from one person in particular with whom I share taste in music, but I needed to experience it in my setting and to my agenda. I am glad that at this stage we agree; that you considered that my ears were a valid enough reason for you to jump onboard...
And "YES" I am looking forward to engaging my ears with your R80 & Lamm etc
Maybe we will have another pair of EMTied ears with us?
The Kondo testing is on the agenda, work for the time being guess this hobby needs funding!
All fun! |
Soundlistening,
one of the secrets of the 927 lies in its higher platter mass. In this respect I think people are right when saying that a higher platter mass is crucial for a good TT.
of course we disagree! why not. I need to show you how excellent a R80 plays without EMT phono stage. You will not believe it.
Did you try an external Kondo phono stage with your 927? The 927 seems harmonizing not so easy with external phono stages as the R80 does. |
For servicing EMT's in the US I would contact Dusch directly, he will be of assistance http://www.emt-profi.de/welcome.htm
But in reality look at these PDF's http://www.hans-fabritius.de/en/emt.html at the bottom of the page and it gives the service to be performed.
In reality the EMTs are simple and the schematics are readily available. Best is service by Dusch but then things can be done by competant technicians.
In regards to the 930 vs the 927 I would say that they are in different ballgames, I auduitioned the 927 vs the 930 very briefly in Italy and that was enough to hear a significant difference (both had the 139st). The 930 has less weight, presence an PRAT.
The 930 is without doubt good so long as you get it with the 139st not the 155st. Therefore care must be taken on getting one that has the correct PS. Voltages for the tube phonos are not the same as the later SS phono stages. Van Vliet in Netherlands does make a PS for the 139 phono ic case you do not have one, no idea if it is good.
Even if Thuchan and I disagree (we also agree on many things) my view is that any EMT should be considered as a "plug and play" with its phonostage, Thuchan is using the TT part of his R80.
I have done a/b between the 927 direct to Kondo phono stage and ANJ amps etc....horns....vs the 927 and its 139st (mine is original fully serviced by Dusch and kitted with following serial numbered Telefunkens), well it is quite amazing to see (hear!) how this technology from >50years ago performs.
I also have the SX8000 with FR66s and FR7 cartridge, the a/b SX8000 FR66S:FR7 into Kondo phono vs 927 with 139 is on the agenda in the next weeks.
I lived with my 927 for sometime then switched back to the SX8000, missed the 927. Now back on the 927 I do not miss the SX8000 what doe that tell me?
All fun! |
Dear Bob,
this is the very good question I will answer when I am back from Vietnam, also being able comparing the sound between the Micro 8000 s and the EMT R 80 by using the same carts and tube phono stages on nearly the same level. I will audition with my new 4 way horns and the two matching subs.
BTW i do know two guys who are owning a Micro 8000 and an EMT 927. I am interested to hear an opinion from them and everyone else who does a comparison in the meantime.
Servicing EMTs is always done by former EMT stuff. As EMT had their own sales organization also distributing STUDER machines there should be some guys out there in North America doing this. I will ask some senior EMT people in Germany. |
How close is the more readily available EMT 930 to the 927? There seems to be a more available supply of those in North America. Another question is whether there is any person to service them in the USA or Canada? Thuchan, I have always found your posts quite interesting. Your passion for this hobby is quite impressive. How would you compare the Micro Seiki tables which I have been drooling over to the EMT? Best Regards, Bob |
Soundlistening,
okay, maybe I forgot dreaming away myself a little :-) But seriously it is only my crest for listening to some units I heard so much about first hand in my own system and not as a visitor in a different environment. This may be good for a first impression. Not more!
When I did my journey to Australia nearly crossing the whole planet and finally succeeding in discovering the perfect matching Continuum it took me lots of preparatory work. Many friendly audiophiles joined me on this trip. The same happened with the EMT. First I had to cross the minds full of prejudices, my own ones too.
There were not many good friends supporting me in my idea to go for a very rare but simple looking R80 - indeed it is not. This machine is fully packed with beautifully designed and perfectly produced technological details you will not find in other TTs - except of the 927s. The R80 is a kind of 927 but without internal phono stage - just great for my usuages.
But maybe I am telling stories everyone knows. in the end I was really surprised how musically the "927" plays. the sound is not studio like as some people in it's bad meaning think it is. The new EMT carts are just gorgeous. I really feel sorrow for those audiohile friends who never went into a good experience with the "Tondosen". |
Soundlistening,
okay, maybe I forgot dreaming away myself a little :-) But seriously it is only my crest for listening to some units I heard so much about first hand in my own system and not as a visitor in a different environment. This may be good for a first impression. Not more!
When I did my journey to Australia nearly crossing the whole planet and finally succeeding in discovering the perfect matching Continuum it took me lots of preparatory work. Many friendly audiophiles joined me on this trip. The same happened with the EMT. First I had to cross the minds full of prejuduces, my own ones too.
There were not many good friends supporting me in my idea to go for a very rare but simple looking R80 - indeed it is not. This machine is fully packed with beautifully designed and perfectly produced technological details you will not find in other TTs - except of the 927s. The R80 is a kind of 927 but without internal phono stage - just great for my usuages.
But maybe I am telling stories everyone knows. in the end I was really surprised how musically the "927" plays. the sound is not studio like as some people in it's bad meaning think it is. The new EMT carts are just gorgeous. I really feel sorrow for those audiohile friends who never went into a good experience with the "Tondosen". |
Henry,
Mark Doehmann knows about TTs -this for sure. The Continuums are very sophisticated and well build machines too. I don't like the massive magnetic field of the Caliburn, also not the lookings of its stand. Nevetheless it is a proper way of isolation and damping.
All Continuums face a small problem with the original tonearm cabeling. You can change this very easy as you should do with the great old arms from SAEC or Micro Seiki as well.
Now let us have a short look on the investments you are facing going for a well preserved EMT 927 or a Caliburn resp. Criterion. You know that there is still a big difference although the value (!) of the EMTs is continously rising. I now know why.
|
Dear Thuchan,
You are a very lucky man and as Soundlistening correctly states.....there are very few on this earth who are ever in a position to hear just one of those famed vintage turntables in your possession?......let alone compare them side by side.
I was just speaking to Mark Doehmann who designed all the Continuum turntables and tonearms and he told me that an EMT 927 turntable with EMT tonearm and EMT cartridge will outdo just about every analogue source he has ever heard.........including the Caliburn/Cobra combination?Cheers and enjoy
Henry |
Thuchan,
Not many visitors here can even get close to any single source that your room hosts. You have trained yorself to the best, experiencing pieces that are from dreams. Therefore maybe not easy to join views in this arena? We are both fortunate enough to expose resource to forge our own views based on our precious ears and needs. To jump into the past with no support from glossy magazines or buring forum posts is an act of faith, congratulations! Few R80's or 927's populate rooms on this planet. Very few of the fortunate owners browse these alleys looking for answers. Perhaps they remain focused on the primary and only true source, the recording. |
As no one responded on this question I was wondering why? maybe there are not so many audio friends out there discussing about these machines. Could it be true? Am I searching in a too much specialized region? No, I couldn`t believe this is the real answer.
I decided to start building up my own opinion. I was lucky to discover a very rare EMT unit, an R80 of which only four units were built in this configuration in 1961.
Here is my conclusion:
Well, may I say that it is written so much nonsense about the EMTs, at least about the one I am able to compare with other TTs. My EMT - and I am not in the EMT church at all, look at all my Micros which I like very much- is such a musical instrument that you forget all that bullshit about inproper idler bass reproduction and studio imperfection.
Hey all you guys out there - go and listen to a proper installed EMT !!! make up your mind yourself and take off your sunglasses...
... will be continued |
