Not seeing the forest for the trees. Sometimes the obvious is not so obvious.
Both of my ET2 arms are currently mounted on pedestals/pods where the braided wires come down vertically at least 6 inches before they touch the plinth. I had experimented with the newer Cardas wire and it was causing some frustration in me this past year as I moved the arms around many times between pods, pedestals and full plinths. That Cardas wire just seemed to twist and curl, go into loops when braided and was not user friendly.
Well from pictures and suggestions here I unbraided about 8 inches of the wire into separate strands starting where it exits the arm tube. Much better results. With each strand separated it no longer twists and curls into loops -it can be tugged at with little effect on the arm, when it is raised and balanced with the extra blue tac on the couhterweights making it delicate. Just passing this on.
Cheers |
ET air pressure:
I've experimented again. I understand other perspectives' (17 psi) , however, in my system ( and I do believe this is system dependant), very slightly under 19 psi is the desired pressure. |
I am using the ET supplied silicone fluid. |
Chris... I still use the ET supplied fluid. Your observation on mood influencing what you hear I think has some validity. When listening to brand new Lps, what I hear the first time doesn't always equal to what I hear the second time. I believe this has something to do with unknown expectations. |
ET2 Damping TroughHi Frogman/Slaw/others – what type of fluid are you using for damping now after all these years ? Have you changed from the ET supplied fluid. Slaw – you said “The sound has opened up quite a bit and still seems to have the dynamics, fast transient response, and real bass weight (not bloated)” Without the trough in place I noticed similar results / just a tad brighter. I have not re installed the damping trough yet. Weights are to the very end. I added one thin ET2 lead weight last night which brought the weight assembly of the 1.1 gram cartridge to number 5 on the scale. The benefits remained with a little more bottom end and it seemed to help with the highs as well in my system. But I need another listening session to be sure. Call me crazy - I believe the mood you are in when you start listening to your system affects what you hear - the body has blockers. This is just a gut feel obviously. Listening sessions over multiple days usually ensures me what I am hearing is in fact what it is to me in my room. FWIW – the same words here describing the sound we are hearing is how I would describe the sound improvement I heard when I replaced the soft VPI rubber belts with thread except it was multiplied. Cheers |
Slaw, glad the changes yielded good results. You said:
"With regards to the damping trough... if the best results come from the paddle lightly touching the fluid, would there be any sonic difference in trying different weights of fluid or is that going way too far out in left field. Has anyone tried this?"
Yes, I did. And yes it's probably going too far in left field. Eighteen years ago or so, before I had kids and had a lot more time on my hands I actually tried, among other things, vegetable oil and hair conditioner (which dried up and made a mess). Bottom line: same results can be accomplished by controlling how far into the fluid the paddle goes. BTW, you don't need to remove or add fluid. Simply turn the paddle one way or the other with needle-nose pliers to raise or lower it. |
OK, I did some experimenting today with my set-up. First I removed quite a bit of damping fluid. I heard more information coming through (air, ambient info, detail) and found that I needed to raise VTA somewhat, but things were sounding somewhat dark. I removed my added weight, slid lead weights outwardly to bring me to 2 grams tracking on my Dyna (manufacturers recommended VTF)set the VTA back to where I thought it should be. The sound has opened up quite a bit and still seems to have the dynamics, fast transient response, and real bass weight (not bloated). Conclusion for now: I used more damping fluid than necessary to evaluate my set-up.
When I set up my cartridge, I use the help of a lighted magnifying glass to try and visually set at 92 degrees. This is where I make my reference point in regards to VTA for any record.
I'm a little frustrated with the recent changes to A'gon myself. |
Ct0517,
I still can't edit my virtual system. I emailed Audiogon about it on the 9th and they said that they will forward my problem to their programmers. I'm sure they have bigger problems to address right now, but a few more emails from other users stating the problem probably wouldn't hurt. |
Hi TheKong
Welcome to the ET2 ET 2.5 Music Lover Fraternity :^) - look forward to hearing about your coupling ideas.
I have an I Beam and 3 separated springs coming to me. I am going to try 2 then 3 springs. I quick look through the manual showed me no mention of multiple springs or trying them. Just the single spring - it it buried somewhere.
Frogman my two current I beams are not the same. They both have one spring but someone has added another what appears to be (folded aluminum type shim) to one of them.
From the Et2 manual - Page – 28 “By changing the weights used and the effective mass of the arm. You can change the low frequency performance of the tonearm.”
This tells me we can play around with it.
In my discussions with Bruce and it states it in the manual he has designed this arm to be neutral down to 5 hz with a medium compliance cartridge. For this is reason it is my opinion that the instructions in the manual reflect and support this.
We all have different gear/rooms listening preferences – you need to experiment here. There is no free lunch / silver bullet in audio. I have learned in the last 18 months comparing turntables that this is a vibration hobby and a black hole. My two ET2 and ET 2.5 were my best tools during this. We need to try things and use your ears and nothing else IMO to decide for yourself. BTW - I do not use the VTA scale on the arm. I use my ears. It can introduce resonances. I removed it.
Has anyone tried a brass or other material counterweight bolt and heard the effects in your room ?
I have been experimenting with the weights closest to the spindle. I have removed enough weight from one of my ET2 arms and positioned it at the end to compare. Frogman and others, have you found the very end to be best or to be just a tad in on the IBeam ?
Early impressions some aspects improved others not so sure. The multiple springs and the IBeam may tell the story for me. It appears from Frogmans experience that we need multiple IBeams for matching up cartridge compliance ?I see this as an advantage in Bruce' design that we can do this. It takes only a few minutes to change an Ibeam out with another one. I have been using this high compliance MM for comparisons. I got involved with Rauls MM thread this past year. It provided me with the means $$ to buy two very good cartridges to do my comparisons. I am familiar with the sound of it so will leave it on for this comparison before I switch back to an MC cartridge. The sound definitely got a tad brighter in my system with less weights out to the end. But other aspects improved. To early to say anything. Any opinions on this ?
I have received emails since the thread started. Some prefer more weight closer to the spindle. The manual supports them being out to the end as Frogman made clear.
I understand why when I ask Bruce about weights – adding/removing/ positioning he is smart to say – IT DEPENDS ON THE CARTRIDGE and compliance. He then said to have fun and experiment.
BTW this thread is at 1500 views. I can see this through the old web page. I cannot however see or access my virtual system page yet when I try to get in from the new web page. Any one else with this problem? |
Frogman..Good point on the wall mount, I usually check the TT level often for that very reason.
Ketchup.. Thanks for the tip on shim stock.
With regards to the damping trough... if the best results come from the paddle lightly touching the fluid, would there be any sonic difference in trying different weights of fluid or is that going way too far out in left field. Has anyone tried this? |
If you want to experiment with really low compliance tightly coupled counterweight you could just wedge something like a tooth pick in the joint to essentially remove the spring from the equation. I think Bruce mentions this somewhere, in any event I didn't invent it, just passing it on. |
Thekong, congratulations! As should be clear so far, we feel this is a terrific arm. And if you enjoy tinkering...well, you'll be in heaven. I think the ET's reputation for requiring a lot of maintenance is exaggerated and unjustified, as I have found that once you have it set up well it will stay that way; pretty much. As a footnote, I have my TNT on a wall mounted platform bolted directly into the wooden studs in a wall of a 100+ year-old house. I have wondered why the arm needed rebalancing every few months. Then I started to notice a pattern. I realized that the seasonal shifting of the studs/walls due to seasonal temperature changes was causing the arm to need rebalancing.
I would be very interested in learning how you accomplished direct-coupling of the counterweights, so please keep us posted. As posted earlier, I made an I-beam with less compliance than even the double spring stock version in an attempt to get vas close as possible to a dc arrangement. Apbii, does a good job of explaining the theoretical pros/cons of more or less compliance at the I-beam spring. From the standpoint of sonics what I can tell you is (as Ct found out out) that the effects of less compliance are not subtle. As always, you will have weigh your personal tonal balance preferences against what will be a much better organized sound, with more tightly controlled imaging and over-all leaner sound. You may also come across a cartridge that simply requires higher compliance for good tracking; I have not owned one that didn't track at least adequately with the lower compliance I-beam. |
ketchup
I originally tried the 0.003 wire(0.005 coated) from phoenix, but just could not get a good solder connection and breaking the wire pretty easily while trying to handle the rca plugs.I got tips about sanding the teflon off and that did help improve the soldering process.
also the thickness wire i was discussing was the coated diameter. If you are nifty with handling the fine wire, the smaller diameter is the way to go. If the diameter is too large, the wire is too stiff and will impact the freeplay of the tonearm. Sorry about not discussing the smaller diameter earlier. I went back to the spools i actually used, and the 0.005 bare (0.007) was very similar to the 0.003 wire from Phoenix in my ability to handle (ie, hard to handle without breaking or getting a good solder connection). The 0.008 bare (0.011 coated) is what is I am using on my tonearm. The 0.010 bare(0.013 coated) was easier to handle but was a little to stiff for my application. I did not mention earlier the type of air pump I use but my apollo uses the original superquiet pump from maplenoll but my ariadne signature uses a JunAir compressor which i really like. Very quiet and dependable. It also has a good air regulation control system that i like. |
Hi everyone, very interesting topic! I have obtained a used ET2 with Bruce’s upgrade 2.5 bearing, but have yet to set it up.
I am very interested in the discussion on the I-beam compliance. As far as I can tell, the arm on the Walker Proscenium turntable (which is of similar design to the ET2) has a direct couple counterweight. Since the Walker is being regarded as one of the best, I was thinking of modifying the ET2 in such manner.
I wonder what are the pros and cons to the 2 different approaches. |
|
The ears always rule. Didn't mean to suggest otherwise.
If things always worked as physics suggests then this treck would be much easier. |
For what it's worth, I have used this arm for about twenty two years, and have used more cartridges (of all persuasions) than I can remember. While the effect of lower compliance at the I-beam spring has been most noticeable with low compliance/high rigidity MC's, the effect has been consistent with all types of cartridges, including high compliance MM's. I think it's important to remember that issues involving resonance and resonant frequency can be rather mysterious, and since their effects are audible mainly (but not only) as effects on tonal balance, that system synergy/personal preference re tonal balance are an important part of the equation. |
Re I beam compliance
I think what Bruce is saying is he is using the decoupling of the balance weights to reduce the effective horizontal mass which allows the use of heavier arm components with their inherent increased stiffness. This seems to imply the use of the single leaf beam to provide the max decoupling, but the best answer is complicated by the compliance of the cartridge you are using.
If I understand correctly the selection of heavier weights close in or smaller weights further out also depends on cartridge compliance and can be verified by measuring the horizontal resonance frequency with a test record.
Changing the compliance of the beam will have a significant effect on the resonance with the stiffer beam increasing the resonant frequency. I may have that backwards but the idea that it changes with the I beam coupling is correct.
The stiffness of the component parts of the arm are physical factors that cannot be changed by anything attached such as I beam and balance weights. The amount of deflection in the arm components however will change with the change in weight and coupling of the I beam assembly. This deflection is however vanishingly small except perhaps at the I beam spring. |
For $15 bucks I am not going to mess around with this - I just ordered a double spring I Beam from Bruce. I warned him to be ready to possibly make a few. :^)
I told Bruce about this thread but he is too busy.
Buying these arms used:
Based on my experience the problem we have here is that when people buy these arms "used" very rarely I think do the arms come in their boxes due to their age and parts go missing. I have bought three of them in total and each time something was missing. I never got 2 I-Beams in three purchases.
Frogman – words describing the music are not my strong point. But I can tell you if it sounds good , better or best to me. So yes “semantics”
You said “Although, the highs are, as I said, better integrated and less "splashy". Perhaps this is what you hear as dampened.” - EXACTLY thank you.
If the sound is less detailed – not as much information I tend use the word “thick” to describe it – which to me is like fog or things not being clear.
Dover said in his post – “I have found any sort of dampening other than the magnet described slugs the sound.”
Looking forward to hearing about this magnet Dover. |
BTW, the key to using the damping trough is to allow the paddle to just barely touch the fluid. Otherwise the sound gets too slow.
Ct, can you be more specific as to what you mean by "damping". It's possible this is a semantics issue, whereby your "damping" is my "controlled". What I hear with the lower compliance in the spring is slightly smaller images, but better separated, better integration of the highs with the midrange, overall better detail with a slightly brighter presentation. Although, the highs are, as I said, better integrated and less "splashy". Perhaps this is what you hear as dampened. |
****Dampened it****
Interesting! Not the effect that the double spring has, making the sound much tighter with better detail, but less warmth. Perhaps it's the particular material you used. When you did this, did you notice LESS horizontal movement of the I beam.
Yes, I use the damping trough. In my set-up, while I would agree it does dampen the sound, it also makes the sound staging more stable with better separation. |
Ketchup I cannot access my virtual system yet either. |
Slaw, sorry I missed that. :-) |
" Ain't this fun "
Makes me feel like a little kid that wants to play :^)
But I have a job and other committments. :^(
Frogman I did the little piece of material next to the spring with my ET 2.0 that is mounted on the brass armpod and it changed the sound considerably. Dampened it. It had more effect than the damping trough for me that I used years ago. Do you use the damping trough?
Cheers |
You can also buy shim stock in just about any thickness to make your own. I have bought it from Mcmaster-Carr in the past to use for other things. Search for "shim stock". |
Frogman... this was just a humorous ( I guess to me only ) attempt at linking the use of Balsa wood in audio applications. Vandersteen uses it in his driver cones on the model 7 with carbon fiber. I believe I have read that he has aeronautical training/hobby interests. Thinking about this type of wood for a counterweight beam/scale is interesting. |
****Throwing weight at the I-beam near the spindle pivot does not increase the arms rigidity.****
Exactly.
BTW, there is a (not particularly elegant) way to experiment with lowering the I-beam compliance without use of the double spring. You can wedge (carefully, of course) a very thin piece of some very rigid material cut to fit that space, into the cavity between the spring and outer end of the counterweight cap/clamp. This will effectively allow LESS horizontal movement of the I-beam. I think you will all be very surprised at the
difference in sound.
Ain't this fun? |
Frogman - thx - yes I agree - I will contact Bruce and get this less compliant double spring before I do anything next.
Daniel - do you recall which I-Beam version you were using in your testing.
Cheers |
Ct, as I quoted before, moving the weight further out on the I-beam improved (in my set-up) the bass performance. By "improved" I mean better control, and weight; two things that don't always go hand in hand. I will say that the best results where always with the less compliant (double leaf spring) I-beam. I think the manual is clear about the benefits of doing this, and my results bear that out. I suspect that with the higher compliance spring (and a higher compliance cartridge/Empire) which you are using the results could be different. I strongly urge you to contact Bruce and get an I-beam with the less compliant double spring. In my set-up the difference is anything but subtle with much better air, detail and refinement. |
The whole paragraph from page 9 of the manual:
"The effective mass of the arm horizontally is equal to the sum of its component parts. (It does not pivot) It needs to be as light as possible for low mass, however, making the arm too light sacrifices rigidity. By decoupling the counterweight system horizontally, but not vertically, the mass of the counterweight is not seen by the cartridge above a certain frequency and is lowered. This allows the use of heavier (more rigid) components in the tonearm design without increasing the effective mass."
He is, indeed, talking about the rigidity of the tonearm parts. Throwing weight at the I-beam near the spindle pivot does not increase the arms rigidity. |
it needs to be as light as possible for low mass, however, making the arm too light sacrifices rigidity. I think what he's talking about here is the construction of the arm itself. If you make the arm too light by making the spindle wall thinner and the arm wand thinner, for example, the arm will loose rigidity. I do not believe the comment has anything to do with the position and number of counterweights, but I need to read the manual again to fully understand what is discussed in that section. Are any of you able to update your virtual system now? I want to add my new air compressor, but when I log in to my account it says there is no system saved, even though I can view the thread. |
Hi Frogman - both my I-Beams have a single spring in them.
Thank you for the wire info Daniel.
--------------------------------------------------------
I havent figured out how to convert a bitmap to text. Need to download some program. Quicker to type it out :^(
Adjusting the Arms Mass.
From the manual page 9
Adjustable effective mass
The effective mass of the tonearm is adjustable both vertically and horizontally. The arm has low-medium mass vertically and medium to high mass horizontally. Four counterweights allow the vertical/horizontal mass to be changed. For example: if the user decreases the amount of counterweights used ,and moved this position back (higher on the scale number) the horizontal inertia of the tonearm would go down and the vertical inertia would go up.
Decoupled Counterweights
The effective mass of the arm horizontally is equal to to the sum of its component parts (It does not pivot) it needs to be as light as possible for low mass, however, making the arm too light sacrifices rigidity.
DOES MOVING THE WEIGHT OUT NOT MAKE IT LESS RIGID – A NO NO for this type of arm)
By decoupling the counterweight system horizontally, but not vertically, the mass is of the counterweight is not seen by the cartridge above a certain frequency.
-------------------------------------------------------
Now what I am hearing.
See first sentence under decoupled counterweights again.
IT NEEDS TO BE AS LIGHT AS POSSIBLE FOR LOW MASS, HOWEVER, MAKING THE ARM TOO LIGHT SACRIFICES RIGIDITY.
In my system when I replaced the counterweight bolt with a longer one and added a “little” more weight closer to the spindle there was noticeable bass change and overall presentation. I made the arm I believe more rigid by doing this. You can hear it in the sound. Based on the music you listen to and more importantly "the cartridge" you may prefer this or not. How much weight you add is a variable. The extreme limiter is bottoming of the spindle - but you will "hear" sonic problems “rumble” long before that according to Bruce - I have so far added just a bit more lead with no issues. I am not done with this yet.
I have discussed this with Bruce and he told me as the manual says that by doing this I am increasing the horizontal inertia but also he said that I am “increasing the vertical weight”.
VERY IMPORTANT
Don’t try this until you have figured out how to properly setup the arm. Level platter/level Spindle/Cartridge setup properly..
Bruce also told me that the effect will be different by cartridge/compliance. So I cannot say that you will get more or less bass attack or solid/leaner overall sound by doing this because -I don’t know what cartridge you are using and the compliance. I am basing what I am hearing on two test Empire 4000DIII MM cartridges 30 x 10(-6)cm/dyne that were mounted on an ET-2 and ET 2.5 at 19 PSI that I did my comparisons with in 2011.
This is a mod I feel u need to try for your own system/room / music preference because it costs nothing to do. Bolt was .75 cents. Lead weights are free from auto shops or order some from Bruce.
Cheers |
From the ET2 manual:
*****It is desirable in most cases (low to medium compliance cartridges 5x10 dynes/cm-10x20 dynes/cm) to use the minimum number of counterweights, far out on the counterweight stem. This decreases the horizontal inertia of the tonearm while increasing the vertical inertia....
....the weights should end up close to the end of the I-beam*****
Speaking of the manual, I have not seen a better or more informative manual with any other piece of equipment that I have owned. |
Dear Chris,
I preferred the IKEDA silver litz - here in particular because it features extremely soft Teflon-foil insulation - resulting in extremely low reset force.
Very important IMHO with an air bearing tangential tonearm.
Besides that mechanical advantage it sounds very open and has become my tonearm inner wiring of choice due to some other mechanical advantages as well as no sonic shortcomings whatsoever.
I used the high pressure manifold as soon as it became available.
Furthermore I used a very large surge tank to smooth air flow.
Compressor was the old venerable Jun-air "Troll".
Still in my experience, the ET 2/2.5 developed problems at 19-22 psi and higher.
Extremely important too, to bring surface of platter AND ET2/2.5 in perfect level - but that's mandatory anyway .. ;-) ...
Cheers,
D. |
Slaw, I will post a picture of my ET on my TNT6 next time my son comes over with his digital camera; being a bit of a Luddite, I don't own one.
No, no relation to R Vandersteen. Curious, why do you ask?
Ct, look closely at the leaf spring on your I beam. Is it a single spring, or are there two spring glued together for lower compliance? |
Oilmanmojo, Daniel thanks for chiming in here with your experiences. Daniel – I modified mine quite a lot and tweaked it to what I think are the limits of it's design. I already posted the thread link to your table from 1993. Do you happen to have the picture with the ET-2 on it :^) by chance. Some eye candy for us. Can you at least tell us if you replaced the I-Beam and what brand of wire you preferred. Frogman – I was not aware of multiple I-beams and those mods with the springs. My ET-2 arms were both bought used and came with just one I Beam each. One of them was a high pressure manifold. The other one I sent to Bruce to replace to the high pressure one. Cheers Chris |
Another important factor as far as my limited experience is concerned (with regards in making your own tonearm wire), the cartridge ends, (the ones I used are great!), they are extremely solid(silver,of coarse), with a hole made for the exit of any air/gases when soldering to ensure a extremely tight/worry-free joint. |
Frogman... as a funny antidote... are you any kin to R. Vandersteen? |
Oilmanmojo,
Thanks a lot for posting about your tonearm wire. I just want to get something straight, though. You said you bought 0.015", 0.010", 0.005" diameter wire from A-M Systems. In your system page, you mentioned using 0.003" wire in your tonearm tube. Did you also use 0.003" wire? That must have been even more difficult to solder than the 0.005" wire. |
..... I posted my "virtual system" only for the sole purpose of sharing my tonearm wire/routing set-up. I thought it could be useful for others....... Admittedly, I could have done a better job.
This (ET) thread was that important to me. |
I wanted to back up here a bit in regards to my system and my viewpoints. I realize that my system is not as revealing as most of yours are, but my comments are from my system's perspective. (I've owned my arm for over 20 years, just in the past year have gone with a high pressure compressor). I use 3 moisture separators and as a last line of defense, use a descicant dryer on the outlet side of the final regulator/moisture separator, that is about 3' from the tonearm. My compressor is in the same environment as is the rest of the system, although in a different room.
Whew!
A note, these arms are awesome! From a tweaker's perspective, guys or gals with a mechanical apptitude, and from anyone with a drive to seek excellence from their stereo system, this arm will always surprise and deliver but only with the love and care you put into it.
I thought from the beginning of this post that wire type would be a major source of discussion and it turns out the couterweight bolt mod is up for grabs. I personally am satisfied with my tonearm wire set-up and won't be seeking further improvements in that area anytime soon. The counterweight issue: I can only speak as to what I hear in my system and it's limitations. From a logical perspective, having the weights extending further out on the scale, to me, isn't a smart way to go because the further out you go, the more of the teeter-totter effect or see-saw effect (as Chris stated) there will be. (This is of coarse with the stock scale, not with a custom made Balsa wood item). (Frogman, I would love to see your set-up). I too, feel that arm/cartridge compatibility would be an issue here as well as is the TT type of suspension, if any, and getting really technical, the room construction and isolation systems that each one of us has deemed right for their own system. I personnally didn't know that the 2 counterweight beams provided with an arm were different in any way. Dover, we're waiting for your pictures.
This discussion is great! Maybe we should form a once a year ET owner's annual get-together? Of coarse it needs to be hosted by Bruce himself. |
Dertonarm's observations are spot on, and mirror mine. His comment about the ET being THE tonearm for opera lovers may raise some eyebrows, but is particularly insightful. For me, the two greatest attributes of this tonearm are it's correct and midrange-complete tonal balance (what some would describe, incorrectly, as too soft), and it's ability to realistically separate individual instruments and groups of instruments. With opera, and how it is typically recorded, it's reproduction of voices (with correct tonal fullness and dimensionality), and the spatial relationship between those voices and the orchestra in the pit is wonderful. |
In brief summary - don't want to get too much involved here - my experiences with the ET 2 and 2.5:
- air pressure (and by chance pulse frequency on the air stream) can have a huge effect on the sound quality. Above a certain pressure the arm can display problems. Up to this "break-point" the sound gets ever more precise and bass gains in "attack" and air.
While the air bearing and tangential principle allow the ET2/2.5 to shine in soundstage and separation, it too sets the limits of it's ability to present authority and attack in the lower bass. This is not a problem of the ET however, but a problem - IMHO - of air bearings in tonearm.
- I always had best results with cartridges with low compliance, rigid internal construction and low body weight. Early ZYX (Monster's AG2000 was an OEM ZYX) and FR-1 MK3F in particular.
- In summary and IMHO, the ET2/2.5 can still give any other tangential tonearm a very hard time and real competition - no matter the price tag.
I modified mine quite a lot and tweaked it to what I think are the limits of it's design.
I loved that tonearm and always will.
To me the best price performance ratio in tangential tonearms and for opera-lovers maybe THE tonearm to go for.
Cheers,
D. |
Re compliance of the I beam springs: my ET2 came with two I beams of different compliances. The lower compliance is achieved by using two (instead of one) leaf springs glued together. It is possible to lower the compliance further (which is what I did with my third I beam) by super-gluing a thin piece of metal to the existing double spring thus further stiffening it. Ct, when you refer to the stock I beam, I don't know wether what you have is the version with the single or double leaf spring. BTW, I believe Bruce Thigpen makes reference to the different I beams in the manual.
Re the ideal PSI issue: the arm can indeed sound fabulous at 19 or higher psi. But, the result may not be ideal in every system. In mine, the slightly warmer and rounder sound a15-17 psi was preferable.
Re what cartridges to use, I have had success with both Mm and MC types. The best (my favorite) combination was the Monster AG2000. In general, and contrary to the opinion of some, lowish compliance carts seem to work best with this arm; although I have gotten good results with MM's, particularly the Empire D4000. |
Great, informative thread that any airbearing tonearm user can benefit from. I do not have an ET arm but have the Maplenoll arm. Ketchup asked for me to share my experiences with the A-M systems silver wire. I chose several thickness of wire to see which worked better with the maplenoll airbearing arm. I had modified the original arm to install a carbon fiber arm with a yamamoto wood headshell. This allowed me to run the arm inside the armwand and through the end to tie directly into the phono amp. I mounted the phono amp directly below the maplenoll which allowed the wires to loosely dangle behind the table down to the phono amp. The wire is single strand, high purity silver and is coated with teflon. I used three different thickness from 0.015 to .005. The very fine wire is very difficult to solder(my experience as i am not great at this but works well because the limpness and weigh are so small that it does not interfere with the movement of the arm. The original arm had wire that terminated in a set of RCA jacks on the back of the table. The original wire was pretty stiff and had to be positioned well to minimize the drag on the arm. I do not know the exact gage of the original maplenoll wire but it was thicker than the 0.015 size. I ended up settling on the 0.01 thickness as i could get a good soldered connection. It did not have any appreciable increase in drag compared to the thinner wire. You can see my original ariadne table using the 0.01 wire on my system pics. As for as signal, i feel the silver wire does not cause any coloration or degradation to the signal from the cartridge. The A-M system wire is used in the medical industry for leads on some pretty sensitive instruments where signal degradation is important so that helped sway my opinion.
Other key points to the tonearm performance is levelness, Proper air pressure and air cleanliness. One item that is discussed on other threads is the absolute mass of the cartridge and tone arm system. The lighter, the better. I know my carbon fiber arm upgrade improved the performance of my table as compared to the original aluminum arm. I use the ZYX universe on the airbearing arm. It is lighter than some of the other cartridges and IMO a great fit for the airbearing arms |
Apbii – You can see what I did to my TNT in my virtual system. I used a pneumatic suspension under the pillars - AT616’s. I am talking about speed stability. I personally was not aware of how much wavering there was until I heard different tables next to one another in my room in direct comparison. That made it obvious. Two ET2 arms / same cartridge. Two different tables at a time. Recommend u take half an hour sometime and read through this. Speed StabilityA little more about the ET2 High Pressure PSI factors as I was thinking about this. Opinions ? The ET2 and ET 2.5 high pressure manifolds with the spindles have been already tested by a number of people including Bruce and they are stable to 20 psi. If you are hitting plateaus at 15 – 16 -17 psi with the music there has to be something out – or someone explain to me how this can be based on the above statement. I am confused about this. Some factors to consider. 1)It could be the arms manifold/ports/spindle. Clogged or blocked like a persons arteries when they get older. They are easily cleaned (I mean the ET2 not the actual person :^) – see the manual. Some over tighten as Frogman indicated this will warp parts of the arm. Not good. The good thing is you can loosen them up and they should go to form again if they have not been damaged. Many tighten down the bolts on either sides of the arm pillar/post to tight. I did this with my first ET2 arm years ago. 2) Air Supply system. Water/different temperatures/ quality of pressure. 3) Turntable affected by Structure Feedback – most likely and look to this first. See my page for my sound pressure findings. It was a revelation to me. If you think you are ok because your rack is on the concrete basement of your house - think again. Concrete slabs are full of air pockets. YMMV Any other reasons why the arm would not work and sound fabulous out to 19-20 psi ? I am really looking forward to our cartridge discussions with the ET2.0 and ET 2.5 arms. Will let someone else start this off. Cheers |
Chris, do you sill have the springs in your TNT? I have seen much discussion about different drive belt materials but I have not tried it yet. Perhaps it is time. From my perspective I don't see how the background is going to get much blacker as it is pretty much silent now if the record is good quality and clean. I gave up on the tripully setup years ago and don't miss it at all.
I am using the PLC drive and really should try a SDS. I think I may try to borrow one before I make the plunge. When you talk about speed stability are you talking short term or longterm, e.g. wow and flutter or pitch control?
I just splurged a bit on a new prepro so I'm not quite ready to invest more at the moment. |
My account is all buggered up – cannot login – but able to now make a post. Frogman – very interesting about the balsa wood I beam – would love to see a pic ? Of the 3 different compliance I Beams you have which one comes closest to the stock ET2 I Beam that I assume most of us are using ? Regarding the PSI’s – here are my thoughts on this especially to those of you with TNT’s of which many ET2’s were mounted in the day. I own a TNT2. Apbiii – Regarding your TNT. Do you have an SDS or are you using the old PLC controller ? if the old PLC I recommend acquiring an SDS first before doing any other upgrades if you are going to keep the TNT long lerm. It is very valuable and has high resale value as well. Many are looking for them used even non-vpi owners. This applies to anyone else here that has a TNT or a table where the motor can moved and you have an accurate speed controller like an SDS and are still using belts. It only costs $1.50 and 5 minutes to try out. I have spent the last year focused on drive systems. Comparing DD, Idler and Belt. I have dismounted and mounted my ET2 arms probably 10 to 15 times during this comparison and testing moving from one table to another. I have a TNT2 with upgraded bearing / SDS. I modified it and changed the drive to different threads and settled on UNWAXED dental floss. The differences were NOT subtle. For my TNT ownership - the higher pressure ET2, the SDS replacing that old PLC and the defeating the tri pulley belts for a straight shot of unwaxed floss all had equal benefits. Speed stability, blacker backgrounds, and detail all increased. The dental floss is transmitting far less motor noise into the platter and the SDS is earning its keep – making sure it stays accurate. Thread knotI highly recommend you try this $1.50 5 minute experiment. Don’t use the tri-pulleys they can only introduce more noise. Those with flywheels do not use them for this. Put the motor where the flywheel is and wrap the floss around the motor and the platter only. Just move the motor in a bit then out to tighten the floss. Listen to a few lps. Once you have it working start moving the motor out an inch at a time/tie a new thread. Each time you move it out the "energy of the music" for lack of better word multiplied in my system. Those with early TNT's like me to move the motor out further need to take out the motor/pulley frame and place it beside the table reversed so the motor is closest to the platter. Please try this. I had a lot of fun with it. Pls give impressions. Cheers |
Apbii, yes 17 was the best in my system. But keep in mind that this had everything to do everything else in the system. I don't think it is a matter of the ET "working best" at 19 (or 17) psi. I think I can safely say, after working with this arm for many years, that the arm "works better" (tracks better) at somewhat higher psi than that achievable with the original stock or even the Wisa pumps, but after that point (+/- 9psi?), it is probably a matter of personal preference (system). |
Frogman, do you mean 19 was a little too much and ...
I think I agree that 16 - 17 seems to be the sweet spot in my system.
Ct, that was an amazing setup on the Chinese thread. Do I understand correctly that he had mounted the arm from the top on a micrometer controlled X/Y stage???
I just got a post back from Mike at VPI with some suggestions so my next move will be setting up a ball suspension to replace the springs in my TNT. Apparently this will make a significant difference.
I just realized I can set up a system with pictures so I will try to get something posted. |
