Slaw
"I do agree with Fremer that this (acrylic) isn't the best material for great transient response, tight, controlled musical bass @ realistic sound that I crave."
Interestingly, last night, I stumbled on the following comment re the VPI Scout 1.1 platter (Joel Salcido, TAS 40th anniversary issue): This one is Not acrylic and to hear Harry (Weisfeld) tell it, acrylic platters are a thing of the past. It's simply easier to machine metal to tighter tolerances, and the fact they sound better ices the cake.
Back in the Goldmund days, I understood their acrylic platter was for optimum impedance matching (with vinyl). Life moves on huh. |
Slaw.
It will be intersting to read about your TT project.
Re the arm pod and pillar, perhaps I have missunderstood?
If the arm pod has three adjustable feet it would be possible to replicate the effect of the three feet currently used by Bruce in the arm pillar. It would be easy enough to replicate the curved VTA arrangement of the pillar in a one piece pillar / pod. The three adjustable feet would need to employ finer threads on the screws to avoid them being too coarse in adjustment due to the longer fulcrum. Is this an option?
Agree with you on the acrylic thing. It can have the negative effects you describe. I think that a lot of this has to do with how it is used though. That said if/when I build another TT, I will almost certainly use a different plinth material. Probably durallium or austenetic cast iron.
I use discarded surface plates under the TT and Pre for their vibrational energy transmitting characteristic. They then sit on soft wood and sand which should dissipate this energy. Like you, the original TT and Arm made extensive use of other surface plates, during the build process, to ensure their trueness.
It is great to read about people taking the big step of commiting time and effort to a major project like yours.
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An lp recommendation... Jason Isbell "Southeastern". STRONG! |
...... another important factor. I, as I'm sure you all are aware, from decades of listening, the effects of certain materials on sound quality. This is where most of us have experience that novices don't or will have to wait for, until these important factors can properly be evaluated in your projects. This is where time listening, experience, and most of all, patience is critical in going forward with aftermarket projects. |
Richardkrebs: I have aquired the necessary equipment and will be constructing my TT in my own shop. Your comment regarding constructing the arm pillar and pod ( assumming we are talking about the same thing) as one, doesn't seem necessary to me and in fact seems a step backward, IMO. I choose to go with Bruce's original design as much as possible, bowing to his expertise on design and knowledge. I will be using the 'granite surface plate' to have an accurate 'plane' as a reference for the build and final placement in my system, not for actual use in my system. The arm's final trueness will have at least one separate adjustment, the 3 point ET arrangement. My focus is to make each of the four portions 'true' in every step of the build process, all the while knowing I have multiple other options available in my personal system/set-up that I can count on to get me to the 'true' point. My personal goal is perfection, then knowing that isn't always acheivable, I can rely on the ET adjustment/ arrangement.
I have to say that as regards to using acrylic as a platform for the vinyl record and in my own system, IE: the armboard, I do agree with Fremer that this isn't the best material for great transient response, tight, controlled musical bass @ realistic sound that I crave. Of coarse this is solely from my own system experience and personal preference. |
I hope everyone is enjoying summer. At least those on this side of the equator. I am enjoying my summer I have an extra aluminum arm wand if anyone needs one. It can be used as is or you can have Bruce convert it to Carbon Fibre. If anyone is interested contact me by pm. Its available with stock wiring or without. Cheers |
Dover.
Please contact me via my website. There, I can answer your questions and any others you may have in detail.
Thank you for your interest in the upgrade. |
Thanks for the info Richard. I have watched my Brass Armpod being cut from this Blurry picture – it was moving I had to make sure I wasn’t hit as it swung over to the cutting table. I also watched my SS Legs that are bolted into my previous version SP10 setup being made. The current version has threads at both ends. This magnesium armtube is a very different beast. :^) Cheers |
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Chris.
When Bruce machines the wand, I assume that this is what happens...
The bore thing is basically drilling a hole to create the ID dimension. Sometimes the drill is rotated, some times the work piece (bar) is rotated. It depends upon the machining centre. For complex internal shapes it is possible to undercut the workpiece such that a larger ID is created say in the center section compared to the two ends of the resultant hole.
The turn process is like moving a chisel along the outside axis of the spinning bar to create the OD dimensions. The chisel can be moved in and out to create different ODs along the length of the bar.
I could send you a video of our milling machines running but you don't see a lot as the work piece is flooded in cutting fluid to keep it and the tools cool, lubricated and help with swarf removal.
The art in this process is getting the feed ( how fast you pass the cutting tool along the surface ) and speed rates ( how fast you spin the work piece or cutting tool ) optimized to produce the required tolerances and surface finish, in sync with the conflicting requirement of finished product thru put, tool wear, and machine loading. |
Thanks Henry – its the words turn and bore that are intriguing to me.
Richard - I would like to see a video of this whole process.
I have seen many videos of how records are made and have been to one record plant many years ago.
The old record making videos always show a bunch of ladies at the end of the process just prior to inserting them into sleeves; They could all pass for your Aunt (fill in the name). They represent quality control as they eyeball the records. :^) |
Chris
Good to read about the mag wands performance. Thanks for giving us a clear view on what it does. Also impressive engineering all over again from Bruce. |
OD is 'outside diameter'.
ID is 'inside diameter'. |
The Mag Wand after a couple listens. Just thinking about it - we have talked at length here about the vertical and horizontal masses. My personal experience has been any time I can increase the vertical mass of the ET2 arm itself - it is a good thing to my ears. With that increasing the armwand weight itself also increases the ET2’s horizontal mass. So its a kind of game. You need to trust your ears. Turning the counterweight cap down is significant in my system. I keep the weights at around 3:30 on the clock. If you don’t believe it try turning the weights up to 2:00 and see what happens to the sound using the middle of the air bearing spindle at 3:00 as a reference. I left the MM that was on there as to change only one variable at a time. What I got was more impact, presence, aggressiveness, attack,.... weightier sounds overall. One example Dire Straits – self titled album. Guitar plucks on Water of Love. The Bass impact on Six Blade Knife. The weightiness to the voice. This is immediately apparent and then you settle into the sound. So would more weight and attack be a good or bad thing in your own system ? Only each of us can answer that. When my teenage daughter plays our 1958 Heintzman piano - her mood - affects her play. Sometimes the piano has more attack and weight sometimes less. I have learned she is more approachable when the sound has less attack in it and the sound is more delicate and graceful. I asked Bruce how he makes the mag wand.
Chris,
It is turned from one piece of magnesium solid bar stock. We turn the O.D., bore the I.D. and then heat the tube to 450F to form the headshell end of the tube in a die. Thank you very much.
brucet
Can someone explain to me what “turn the OD, bore the I.D.” means ? It required one extra skinny lead weight for balancing over the Carbon Fibre armwand with lead (only) weights setup according to Dorothy. |
06-25-13: Richardkrebs
In order to maintain standards and ensure authenticity…
In contrast the 2 off MK2s done in NZ do not, being prototype mules 1 and 2, they were effectively a work in progress. Both of these owners are aware of this and are getting their units brought up to spec FOC. This developmental work has meant that any brand DD TT can now be upgraded with a high level of confidence, circumventing the prototype stage.
Baring imports, there is only one TT in NZ that meets my requirements, a MK3, and that is mine. Richardkrebs The fact that they are advertised as having your US$800 upgrade says otherwise. I quote from the published advertisements here in New zealand - The Technics SP 10 MK II has had the Richard Krebs US $800 upgrade. I was advised that they had your upgrade and at no time was the word mule or prototype mentioned. Your explanation conflicts with both the advertising and the descriptions given to me by the retailers. Your post of 06-24-13 accused me of making untrue statements. You owe me an apology. |
In order to maintain standards and ensure authenticity, I have initiated the use of identification labels on my upgrade. Going forward, only TTs that meet these standards will be shipped with this authentication. Every TT done by Bill meets these standards. In contrast the 2 off MK2s done in NZ do not, being prototype mules 1 and 2, they were effectively a work in progress. Both of these owners are aware of this and are getting their units brought up to spec FOC. This developmental work has meant that any brand DD TT can now be upgraded with a high level of confidence, circumventing the prototype stage.
Baring imports, there is only one TT in NZ that meets my requirements, a MK3, and that is mine.
Back on subject, Chris, we are waiting to hear about the mag wand performance. |
06-24-13: Richardkrebs
Dover
Correction, you have not heard the full krebs upgrade.Two people in NZ have.
Please confine your comments in posts to those that are actually true. Richardkrebs Your assertion is wrong. I have listened at length to the Technics krebsupgrade on 2 occasions in the past few months. I stand by my comments. At least 3 of your turntables are in NZ and some overseas. I know some of the owners well. |
Dover
Correction, you have not heard the full krebs upgrade.Two people in NZ have.
Please confine your comments in posts to those that are actually true. |
Slaw - I assume you've seen the 3D printed VPI arms... any thoughts? Slaw I have owned the JMW 12 in the past. Here is a pic of my past JMW 12 with a pic from the web of the new VPI 3d tonearm. http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1372035211.jpgOther than materials they still look really similar to me? The wire placement doesn’t seem to have changed. It was used for antiskate as it would push back. The newer VPI arms have additional antiskate on the new arm. Not sure how this tonearm can be one piece? what does the point in the cup rest on? I would think some stainless is needed on the inside of the female part. |
06-23-13: Richardkrebs
My TT and Pre happen to sit on granite surface plates, surplus left overs from our machin shop. They are used, not of their flatness but their energy sinking properties. This is not correct. Granite is very very hard and therefore tends to pass energy straight through in both directions, it does not sink energy in of itself. Therefore what the granite sits on becomes important. For example HRS use a polymer to dampen the natural resonance their granite shelves. Readers should also be aware that granite contains high levels of uranium and can be considered radioactive. My own experience with granite is a hard edge to the sound in the upper mid lower treble - granite has a definite sonic signature related to it's natural resonance. |
Ct0517 - further to my previous post, my experiments with copper mats is that you get more out of them when used in conjunction with a record clamp to ensure tight coupling of the record to the copper. |
Ct0517 - I have listened at length to several SP10's both MkII and Mk3 both with and without the krebsupgrade. To my ears none of them are particularly transparent. Both the Micro Seiki 5000 ( air bearing ) and Ipad (on BDR cones with Cambridge 840 DAC ) sound more resolving, more fluid in terms of timing and have an openness that eludes the Technics.
Re the mats - I've compared the std, stainless and copper and preferred the copper - a bit more focus and cleaner through the mids. The Mk3 is substantially better than the MkII - less jittery and grainy, but bear in mind the Mk3 platter is considerably heavier and more damped than the MkII. In my view playing around with mats on the MkII merely highlights its shortcomings, and you may be better off with something relatively benign rather than resolving. |
Chris.
Quite a few of my customers use after market metal mats. SS and CU.
This adds considerably to the moment of inertia of the platter, but none have had any problems that I am aware of.
My own custom platter is the same weight but a slightly higher moment. Again no problems.
Slaw
I very much look forward to reading about your TT project.
As before I agree totally that things need to be true. If you are controlling the whole process and have access to a good machine shop, this should not be difficult.
My TT and Pre happen to sit on granite surface plates, surplus left overs from our machin shop. They are used, not of their flatness but their energy sinking properties.
If you are going to pod the arm, is it necessary to retain the standard arm/ plinth arrangement? Could you machine the arm pillar and pod as one piece? Some would argue that multiple paths to the plinth (pod) can be problematic. Maybe have the final adjustment of the arm's trueness set by the pods feet? Just a thought.
I have fused my custom arm pillar to the plinth with a solvent that actually melts the surface of the acrylic. The vendors of this stuff claim that the result is a homogenous material as strong as the parent. Thus the pillar and plinth are effectively one. I retained the ability to correct any dimensional errors since the whole plinth could be machined with the arm pillar attached.
I'm sure that your project is going to be a lot of fun and produce brilliant results. |
Richard It sounds better with the copper platter but I fear I will screw up the servo on it due to the weight. I made that comment in regards to my SP10MKII - any comments / advice with your and others MKII experience ? Thanks Chris |
The use of differing materials from wood to high tech options. I'll either fall flat on my face or end up with something very special. And you will have fun and learn a lot. This is what a hobby is all about. Imo – whether the learning is happening with the music itself new/old or the equipment part – when you stop wanting to learn you start to die a slow death. Slaw – I can share some observations in regards to TT design from my experience the last four years. What sets my Verdier apart from other tables I own and have owned is the use of materials, an understanding of their properties and documented results from measurements that were taken. I have emailed with JC Verdier many times, he has all the information and is very open with info; just as BT is with his tonearm. BTW from pictures JC Verdier is very impressed with the ET2.5 and did not know what it was when he first saw it . The Verdier is all about decoupling with levitation. The decoupling is carried over into the spindle/platter design as the spindle is brass and the platter Aluminum. My Jean Nantais Lenco uses a Metacrylate mat that JN bonded to the stock Lenco platter to become one. You would never know it was not part of its original design if I didn’t tell you. His plinth is meant to become one “thing” 100 pounds worth with the top plate and tonearm. The top plate holding the platter from what I see must be fixed to the plinth in a way that it is “bonded” to it as well just like the Met mat and becomes part of - for the idler resonance control. I don’t like the spindle as it fatter. My learning/hobby TT has been the SP10MKII. I am on version ?? now :^). It sounds better with the copper platter but I fear I will screw up the servo on it due to the weight. The latest version can be seen in my virtual system. Whoa! My testosterone runneth over. That armwand... did I miss something? Mounted today :^) Its too hot to go outside. The CF version is in the pic too. |
I know I'm stretching the positive here, remember A J Conti, his claim to fame is ultra high demands on the end "TRUENESS" of his product, hence the normal acrylic platter vs. his acrylic platter and how it may compare. This is the "anal" I am speaking of, I only hope I can achieve it once. |
Ct0517: Sorry, should have replied earlier... Holy Testosterone Batman!!! |
Dover: The granite surface plates vs. a CNC machine = my version of "shade tree mechanics" in my world. |
Richardkrebs: In response to your inquiry as to my tt project.... it's at least a year from reality. there won't be much new ground broken here, I'll be using my current VPI platter/bearing, there will be prescision engineering in all phases, a (4) pod design, (motor, pulley/pinch roller arrangement, tt plinth, ET pod.)
My hope is the "anal" focus on prescision mating of parts and excecution will be a plus. The use of differing materials from wood to high tech options. I'll either fall flat on my face or end up with something very special. |
Ct0517: Whoa! My testosterone runneth over. That armwand... did I miss something?
Is this a true one-piece design? I assume you've seen the 3D printed VPI arms... any thoughts? |
Dover: I agree about the 3 point leveling of the ET. Your acknowledgement of engineering differing materials to the same level of trueness... This is what I'm getting into now, I'm aquiring a granite surface plate with a remarkably true surface that I'll be using to "true" each and every section of my upcoming tt project. The "anal" part of me would prefer that my project is as level/true as possible, all the while knowing I have the flexability/adjustability of the ET to take up the slack if needed! I know that no matter what one's skills are, they are for not if the 'right' tools aren't being applied to a project. You have some interesting points regarding overhang! |
Richard, its even more serious when you hold each in your hand. They were definitely designed for two different cartridges. The mag looks like it has been lifting weights and has been on steroids all its life.
I will put it on soon and provide an update. Guess I am being a little cautious :^)
I think Ketchup still owns both armtube versions but his are on two different TT’s? Maybe if he sees this he can chime in on his experiences. Or maybe one of the other thread readers can provide input?
Cheers |
Chris.
That is one serious looking wand.
Have you tried it yet? How does it perform compared to the AL version?
Thanks |
I recently received my magnesium armtube from Bruce. Here is a picture that shows some big differences between the magnesium versus aluminum armtubes What is not so obvious in the pictures is how much beefier the head shell is on the mag tube. Cheers |
Dover: "The theory is that if you are running at the tangent then there are no lateral forces on the stylus and it will “chatter”, slowly eroding the high frequency grooves over time."
The theory - its A theory.
I'm fully aware of engineer Tony Kriletich's ideas (as above).
He suggested running with overhang in the eighties.
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06-17-13: John47
Correction: the review I posted was not Stereophile. It was Audio magazine, 1987, reviewer Edward M Long.
Dover: "Back in December last year I posted a postulation that one could consider mounting the cartridge slightly forward of the tangent line."
I don't believe you "posted a postulation."
You reacted to information known since Edward Long published it in the measurements section of his Audio review, year 1987 (that channel synchronization wasn't achieved until an overhang of .125 in was used). John47 - it would be helpful if you read my posts more carefully. This is precisely what I wrote - Back in December last year I posted a postulation that one could consider mounting the cartridge slightly forward of the tangent line. The theory is that if you are running at the tangent then there are no lateral forces on the stylus and it will “chatter”, slowly eroding the high frequency grooves over time. The postulation has nothing to do with the Audio article on timing differences - it is about possible tracking issues at tangent due to the lack of lateral forces on the cantilever. This is similar to olden days cars that had kingpins in the front steering - drive in a straight line and the wheels wobble, but as soon as you turn the steering wheel off centre, then the wheels stop wobbling and start tracking securely. The following paragraph on the timing differences between channels highlighted in the Audio article is a different issue, albeit one that has the same possible remedy of running forward of the tangent. So when you said I don't believe you "posted a postulation."
You reacted to information known since Edward Long published it in the measurements section of his Audio review you are wrong. |
John47 - We assume, I suppose, on this thread, that BT can solve all problems, but he has fingers in other pies. No not really John - check the original post for this thread. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1325551242&&&/Eminent-Technology-ET-2-Tonearm-OwnersIts asking for ways (as a team)to improve the tonearm. My personal definition of a great design is one that can be tweaked and made better without changing the basic design. With that I have tremendous respect for people that think outside of the box and don’t follow the herd. Are willing to take some chances. In this audio hobby with my personal experiences I could name maybe 4 or 5 individuals including BT. I believe we all have this list of people from our own experiences? Cheers |
Correction: the review I posted was not Stereophile. It was Audio magazine, 1987, reviewer Edward M Long.
Dover: "Back in December last year I posted a postulation that one could consider mounting the cartridge slightly forward of the tangent line."
I don't believe you "posted a postulation."
You reacted to information known since Edward Long published it in the measurements section of his Audio review, year 1987 (that channel synchronization wasn't achieved until an overhang of .125 in was used).
I phoned Bruce Thigpen on the issue in 1987 ie overhang, and channel synchronization.
He said "He's probably right. I was aware of this, and should have, but never pursued it further."
We assume, I suppose, on this thread, that BT can solve all problems, but he has fingers in other pies. |
Dover – thanks for the wine recommendations. Dorothy happens to be a whiskey girl. Hardcore all the way just like the ET2. No pussy footing around here.
Her personality is also just like Bruce’s for those that have had the pleasure of talking or emailing with him. All business. If Bruce wasn’t into flying I bet he could come up with a hell of a race car :^)
When any wine is being served I accept it - as it is Gods drink. Well that’s the excuse to my wife. If I have to buy it myself I am more a red wine guy. Prefer wine I can’t see through. So it is Pinot Noir over Gris for me if I had a choice. White wine tends to taste like grape juice to me for some reason and goes down same. Car keys please....
As it is summer here now I enjoy Sleeman Cream Ale while listening to bull frogs and authentic Canadian Loons that have come home. |
Dover - The issue I had with changing VTA on the fly is that the bearing tube can go out of level very easily when adjusting VTA. This may have been due to the fact that I used a single point ground when tightening the bolts holding the bearing to post. Whenever you loosen or tighten the pillar bolts you need to recheck the bearing tube is dead level. An observation on running the wire on the outside of the armtube. Running the wire in this manner allows one to disengage it; set the ET2 up without it, then add the wire and see how big the influence of the wires is on the leveling of the air bearing spindle. Its significant. Some of you may be throwing the level of your VTA post out dealing with the wire influence? The happy face loop going direct to the preamp has worked best for me. Also to consider - what if your TT platter goes out of level with the changes in season – have you guys ever thought about that ? Its only a few bolts to disassemble and reassemble the ET2 to check the subplate levelling. When the pillar is assembled the vertical bolts should imo just slightly be touching making firm contact – each side very much the same. Any significant adjustment to the screws for the air bearing spindle should be an indicator that something is out. If it is go back and fix the sub plate level and your turntable platter level. There is one more option here. More of a bandaid but what the hell. It requires some thought ahead of time. Gather the records you intend to play - lets assume eight of them for example. Sort them by thickness - greatest thickness to the least. Go in one direction with the VTA for your listening session. It will be much smoother even if your pillar post is not perfectly level. Going back and forth on the VTA will make a wrongly setup post more noticeable. |
Ct0517
The best Pinot Gris in NZ are from the Central Otago region as are the best Pinot Noir. Even the cheapies from this region will usually be better than from elsewhere in NZ. The Hawkes Bay region is known for its Cabernet/Merlots's and the Marlborough region for Sauvignon Blanc's.
Unfortunately for those with a lead fetish, they must avoid wines with high lead content as it can lead to irrascibility, irritability, confusion and even delirium.
Some of the vinyards to look out for are -
Mt Difficulty - very very good, a tonic for those who are struggling with their ET.
Wooing Tree - something aromatic you could share with Dorothy
Dry Gully - for those that are shall we say "having trouble with the waterworks".
Two Paddocks - this is owned by Sam Neil the famous NZ actor, probably one for those with too many Kangaroos in the top paddock - hence the name Two Paddocks.
As you can see there is a suitable wine for all occasions. In fact after a particularly good meal and Pinot Noir the other night I had a brainwave. I'm going to eliminate the counterweight completely. By my reckoning I can use a helium balloon to hold the cartridge up. I'm just trying to work out how to adjust tracking force up and down down in increments of 0.001g. I think I can do this with a temperature controlled environment used in tandem with the helium balloon. |
06-15-13: Slaw
I can only add: when I set up a cartridge, I try hard to set the appropriate VTA for said cartridge in the "neutral zone", (my term), of the arc block. The "neutral zone".... This to me is the (center range) of the arc block, where as if I adjust upward or downward, it will have the least effect on overhang, ( which I choose to reserve for differring weights of vinyl), this is in fact the center of the arc. Logic 101! Yes, I choose to make this adjustment for the differring thickness of vinyl records. What makes the ET such a great arm (for me)is for such a choice. Despite what is written in the manual, an up or down adjustment of the arc block results in another adjustment that needs to be corrected for overhang. There is no doubt about it!
06-16-13: Ct0517
Slaw- from my experience if another adjustment is needed for overhang, something is off in the setup.
If the ET2 is setup properly, the mounting base post should be level and true with your platter. The mounting base post is after all what holds the VTA gearing that raises and lowers the ET2. The platter is what the stylus overhang reference gauge rests on. The two are a marriage.
Check level on both. How true they are to each other will determine imo how true your overhang is when you raise and lower the VTA. Some discussion on overhang is required here. Back in December last year I posted a postulation that one could consider mounting the cartridge slightly forward of the tangent line. The theory is that if you are running at the tangent then there are no lateral forces on the stylus and it will “chatter”, slowly eroding the high frequency grooves over time. If you also go back to the Stereophile review posted and read it you will also find that when tracking at the tangent then one channel leads the other by a few milliseconds. See bottom page 86…. http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/CT-993/library/?sort=2&page=1 which can be corrected by running the cartridge forward of tangent. Slaw- the answer to your VTA adjustability and overhang may be to add a lead slug and remove the counterweight decoupling. With this mod you wont hear any difference if the VTA is out a bit. The only downside is that playback appears in 3/4 time, even when played in 5/4 time. Alternately, you might be better setting the VTA for the thickest record, and then use shims under the record matt to adjust up the thinner records. This way you will not have the “overhang” problem. The issue I had with changing VTA on the fly is that the bearing tube can go out of level very easily when adjusting VTA. This may have been due to the fact that I used a single point ground when tightening the bolts holding the bearing to post. Whenever you loosen or tighten the pillar bolts you need to recheck the bearing tube is dead level. |
06-16-13: Ct0517
Richardkrebs - Here is a conundrum. Stylus drag is significant, being able to slow some TT platters. What about the other side of the coin?
What about a TT platter system that doesn’t slow down with stylus drag, but can’t slow down fast enough after a real tough vinyl passage?
That can sound interesting? Some really like this sound. :^) Ct0517 – the question I ask myself is How can someone listen to a direct drive for 30 years, before discovering that the timing is out, and finding a “fix” ? It would seem to me that they must be less sensitive to timing errors and other artefacts from the speed instability to have put up with this for so long. Is it possible that the insertion of a lead slug and the removal of the counterweight decoupling on the ET may help to slow down the “sound” on those passages where the composer or conductor got it wrong? |
06-12-13: Richardkrebs
Slaw.
"Variations in the degree of trueness"
Totally agree. Since I had the luxury of building the arm and TT, almost concurrently, I could deal with these topics in real time.
Getting accurate alignment when two components are brought together from different manufacturers, without the ability to adjust, would be pure luck. Yes I suppose almost concurrently could be considered real time for some folk. What you have forgotten is that the ET2 has 3 adjustable feet that ensures that the arm can be leveled for any turntable. I should also point out to readers that engineering wise it is almost impossible to machine 2 flat surfaces, without manufacturing 2 or 3 of each component and flipping, polishing and lapping in the 2 surfaces to be mated. So in most instances the 3 footed approach of the ET2, properly anchored, will be inherently more stable than 2 “flat” surfaces mated together. |
Chris and Slaw. This whole geomerty thing is interesting.
This is how I understand it...if we set up a curved pillar in Slaw's "neutral zone" for a given record thickness, the arm will land the stylus at the same point on the LP for a range of VTA's, provided we always use the same thickness record. Change the record thickness and the stylus will land at a different place.
For a straight pillar, the stylus will land at the same point for different record thickness when setting the same VTA, but will move when we use a different VTA.
This could explain Slaw's need to adjust overhang for different thickness records.
So the choice is which feature do you want?
Chris. Speed accuracy, yes a Pandoras box.
Cheers. |
Richardkrebs - Here is a conundrum. Stylus drag is significant, being able to slow some TT platters. What about the other side of the coin? What about a TT platter system that doesn’t slow down with stylus drag, but can’t slow down fast enough after a real tough vinyl passage? That can sound interesting? Some really like this sound. :^) |
Slaw- from my experience if another adjustment is needed for overhang, something is off in the setup. To break down the set up we have 3 sections.
1) Sub-base plate – the one with the 3 leveling spikes and the one bolt holding the arm. Holds all the goods.
2) Mounting base and post. (includes the VTA arc block) – holds manifold, spindle, armtube, counterweight. Mounting post needs to be level and true with platter level for VTA to work properly.
3)The actual manifold housing, air bearing spindle, along with the armtube and counterweight.
If the ET2 is setup properly, the mounting base post should be level and true with your platter. The mounting base post is after all what holds the VTA gearing that raises and lowers the ET2. The platter is what the stylus overhang reference gauge rests on. The two are a marriage.
Check level on both. How true they are to each other will determine imo how true your overhang is when you raise and lower the VTA. |
I can only add: when I set up a cartridge, I try hard to set the appropriate VTA for said cartridge in the "neutral zone", (my term), of the arc block. The "neutral zone".... This to me is the (center range) of the arc block, where as if I adjust upward or downward, it will have the least effect on overhang, ( which I choose to reserve for differring weights of vinyl), this is in fact the center of the arc. Logic 101! Yes, I choose to make this adjustment for the differring thickness of vinyl records. What makes the ET such a great arm (for me)is for such a choice. Despite what is written in the manual, an up or down adjustment of the arc block results in another adjustment that needs to be corrected for overhang. There is no doubt about it! Yes, I'm probably anal. So what?! If we are going to the lengths we go to to extract every inth of information from vinyl, that to me is a definition of anal. Why Fremer chose years ago to suddenly forgo this, is beyond me and frankly deminished any respect I once had for him. |
Slaw
Yes the arm has considerable vta adjustment but it cannot easily be done while playing. Chris's post clearly shows the importance of correct vta.
This adjustment on the standard ET2 with the curved pillar is a brilliant design feature and one that is was unable to emulate with mine due to the machining capability I could access back then. MK2 will address this.
Other than the three wand positions, alignment adjustments are facilitated via the gooseneck like the original.
Here is a conundrum. Stylus drag is significant, being able to slow some TT platters. What effect does this force have on cartridge alignment?
Since the cantilever is angled down towards the record, any change in drag would tend to increase or decrease this angle.
Does this mean that the stylus is not only moving in the desired x and y axises but also in the z axis due to changes in drag, I.e modulation level and frequency?
It is amazing that we get anything that sounds like music off LPs. This given the myriad of compromises and the lack of industry standards
Another Pinot Gris I think. |
Slaw – I think we are thinking the same thing in your last post .... RichardKrebs - Yes lifting off at record end is an interesting exercise Richard moving speakers an inch and listening to the differences is interesting. Changing out footers and listening to the differences can be interesting. Trying some NZ Pinot Gris sounds really interesting ! Taking out an expensive cartridge... not interesting. :( Which end for the trough? The one with the least amount of joins and material changes before we get to the cartridge. In my most humble opinion :-) Great idea! |
