Ct0517: Thanks for your going the extra mile on my compressor issue. This avenue would have been my next one. I have of late, been focused solely on very pointed issues and didn't take the time to inquire with the obvious source.
On another front. Regarding the end users preferred listening air pressure. I know you and a few others are set on 19 psi. I have varied but keep coming back to 18.5 psi. I find over & over again that I lose valued bass definition and weight. With my latest upgrade,a pair of Martin Logan Depth i, this is even more clearly defined. What is it you or others prefer going to 19 psi? There certainly could be the difference in system synergy/integration within one's room and end user's preference. |
Richard, Unfortunately I don´t recall FM radio played a JT album in its entirety in this remote area LOL. But I do recall vividly as "Songs from the Wood" album was the only subject in one music lesson in high school in 1977. I felt huge respect for the teacher due to his knowledge/respect he had and he really played most of the album. |
Harold/Richard - thanks passionate in the extreme about his music imo - everyone here is equally passionate in the extreme about their music. I remember exactly the moment when I realized music was going to be something special. I was only a single digit in age and I heard "I wanna hold your hand" Beatles in 68 or 69 for the first time. right now I am hunkering down for lots of music because its cold outside and only going to get colder. the picture of that groove reminds me of bare cold and makes me think of Springsteen's song titled "Badlands" Poor man wanna be rich
Rich man wanna be king
And a king ain't satisfied
'Til he rules everything
Springsteen - Badlands So some are rich and even fewer are kings. Some folks are so passionate in the extreme about their music and have the resources to create concerts in their home for others to enjoy. If you scroll down you will see how the concert is taped and then those interested can go listen to the reproduced sound to compare. Harold - I don't know what it is about Italian music. I can't understand a word of it but I can listen to it for hours. Cheers Chris |
Harold-not-the barrel.
Absolutely agree with your eloquent post. You did forget to mention Jethro Tull though :-)
Although I have not met Chris, it is clear to us all that he is passionate in the extreme about his music and is a gentleman. |
Chris,
We are children of the revolution, the swirling 1960´s and we "speak" the same language. We have certain respect to our past, and it´s music itself. The super groups we listened when we were kids will be our musical heritage till the end of time.
The turning point for me personally was in 1974 when I used to listen FM radio and I occasionally managed to record some strange and quite extraordinary music to my PHILIPS radiorecorder (at the time I didn´t have a record player !) I captured "Shine on Brightly" by Procol Harum, "Meddle" by Pink Floyd, "Brain Salad Surgery" by ELP and "Starless and Bible Black" by King Crimson on tape. And "Twin Peaks" by Mountain as well, probably the heaviest/fattest bass sound ever put on vinyl. Thanks to Felix Pappalardi, the great late producer, band leader & musician. Of course, we kids listened the pop music too.
But I hadn´t any idea where this all will lead in next year. My dear dad bought me my first stereo system. The finest part of the sale was a bonus, the double album "666" by APHRODITE´S CHILD, would you believe ! Oh yes, the mighty music composed by Vangelis & sung by Demis Roussos who has a very unique and beautiful voice. This stunning music blew this kid´s mind away and never looked back ever since.
But it still took 26 years to find another musical treasure hidden in time, the fantastic Classic Italian Progressive music. In 1973 Alphataurus the Mighty Dove abandoned manking in frustation & anger because of commersializing the music culture. But mankind still has hope as we saw the triumphant return of Alphataurus in 2011 as documented in "Alphataurus Live in Bloom"
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LIVE-IN-BLOOM-ALPHATAURUS-VINYL-NEW-/370760653864?pt=UK_Records&hash=item56530e9c28
And resulting a Renaissance in Prog Music, especially in Italy after all the years ! Another gem:
http://www.btf.it/dvd/prog-exhibition.html
Another thing I regard you as a sir is your TT, The Platine & ET-2. I think it´s a very special combination. In fact, you are running a double air suspension system turntable truly.
This unique and very sophisticated techique you are using proves that you take audio and music VERY seriously and you truly respect the things you love.
Furthermore and as for an extra suspension, I would suggest you to try a Reso-Mat made by Vic himself. IME over the years it is a true bargain in audio. In my system the improvement in audio guality & quantity is really huge.
It´s due to it´s feature that vinyl sits freely and uncompressed on vinyl spikes that allow resonances vanish into air and not bouncing back to vinyl and rearching stylus. Many things in mechanics are simple, also this. It works !
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RESO-MAT-TURNTABLE-PLATTER-MAT-FOR-TECHNICS-SL1200-GARRARD-401-/181111989567?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables&hash=item2a2b1da53f
Btw, thaks us showing the way to the record groove, I actually haven´t seen it so clearly before ! What a revelation !
Cheers |
Why do you keep (repeatedly) trying to prove the arm designer wrong? |
Chris.
Yes spring has sprung here. BBQ's, Boating, Fishing, and company with great friends watching long sunsets over a glass of wine. I suspect that it was the change in temperature that precipitated the o"ring failure.
I am using a HP manifold at around 18 psi.
HF Dover.
I knew that you would bring up the added weight question inside the spindle. The 30 gm adder was a guess based on 16 year old memory. Clearly my guess was well overstated. I will be removing this when I do the swing arm counterweight test to bring the arm as close to stock as possible. The 95 gm total, arm and cart weight, is accurate. This depending upon c/weights and cart used by others, being more or less the same as a standard ET2 using a mag wand.
For further discussion on how every ET2 on the planet requires the cartridge to push sideways the total arm weight when tracing an eccentric record, please read below....
> Bruce.
> I have been thinking about the horizontal effective mass of your ET2 and have a question please.
> The horizontal effective mass calculation you give in the tech section of the manual shows an arm mass of 30 grams which is then added to the weight of the cartridge to give total horizontal mass. This calculation ignores the weight of the counter weight since it is decoupled via the leaf spring.
>
> My question is around the horizontal effective mass seen by the cartridge when tracing an eccentric record. The resonant frequency of the counterweight spring assembly is 2-5 hz and the lateral tracing frequency of an eccentric record at 33 rpm is 0.55 hz.
> At 0.55 hz the transmissibility would be approaching 1, even with a counter weight spring frequency of 2 hz.
>
> This would therefore mean that the cartridge "sees" all of the counterweight weight when tracing an eccentric record?
> Thus the effective mass at this low frequency, 0.55 hz, would be the total weight of the arm and cartridge including the beam and the weights it is carrying.
>
> Many thanks
>
> Richard.
>
>
Richard,
Below the counterweight decoupling frequency cutoff ~ 2hz, the effective mass becomes the total mass. Then you have another resonance freqeuncy to add to the mix which is typically much greater than .55Hz.
So yes, it sees all of the mass below 2Hz, but the combination of those masses results in a cantilever resonance above that frequency. You should see the arm move back and forth with the eccentricity of a record at .55Hz as opposed to deflection of the stylus.
I hope this helps and thank you very much for the interest.
brucet
|
Hi Richard " spring cleaning ? " I wish. its freezing here. where to put the Christmas tree for best room acoustics in a shared room ? I am interested in your I Beam testing/findings. Is your manifold a standard low pressure one ? If so consider including tests that use just enough PSI to make the spindle float and work as Bruce designed. I think Dave's recent observations on music presentation when PSI is run higher on a regular LP 2.0, show how much we change change things up with PSI. This will change your findings/results. I am also interested to know what your and others definition is of a really eccentric record ? I believe we are all different in what we will tolerate as far as this is concerned. Wouldn't it be nice if someone came up with a record making machine that could produce holes in vinyl - LIKE A CD. Looking at the way the groove looks. http://embrangleroot.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/tumblr_m7ob01afye1qlixleo1_1280.jpg?w=614Now add an off centered hole to that mess. |
I bring this up since the 2.5 manifold is no longer available Hi Frogman I guess the recent interest has cleaned Bruce out of his 2.5's . I know of another ET2 owner with an interest to upgrade so I emailed Bruce for him.
Bruce
re: ET 2.5 availability
is it still possible for someone with a 2.0 to upgrade to a 2.5 with you ?
they send u their 2.0 manifold and spindle and you return a 2.5 spindle and manifold.
Also can the 2.5 still be bought new from you ?
thanks Chris
Chris,
Both are not available right now, it is likely that we will have more in about 4 months, thank you very much.
brucet
So this is a temporary situation. I agree that a low pressure (LP) 2.0 upgraded to a HP is very worthwhile. The cost is about the price of two Canadian gas tank fill ups. Cheers |
12-09-13: Richardkrebs
Depending upon the counterweights used and the weight of the cartridge, this total can approach 100 grams. The same ball park as my arm. You have stated in earlier posts that you added 30g of lead to your ET2 plus lead to the headshell and replaced the original plastic counterweight beam with an M10 threaded rod. You have strongly advocated adding more mass to the ET2. It is simply not possible to add 30 plus grams of lead and arrive at the same net weight to an unmolested ET2. With my low compliance Denon 103 weighing 9 gms I could balance the ET2 with 35g at the counterweight giving a total mass of around 79 grams. ( That would be about 43 gms using your maths ). Re your comments on transmissibility - 03-14-13: Richardkrebs
Shown here is a link to the Math on driven harmonic oscillators, a mathematical representation of an arm/ cartridge assembly. It shows in both formula and graphical terms what I have been trying to say. The Math is a bit of a struggle but fortunately the graphs show the results.
en.wikipedia#Driven_harmonic_oscillators I have pointed out before, the model you refer to applies to a harmonic oscillator like a pendulum. You are incorrect if you think that this represents a cartridge. The arm/cartridge/record interface has 2 fulcrum points - The stylus point around which the cantilever pivots, constrained by the groove. The cantilever suspension point, about which the cantilever also pivots, but which is partially constrained by the rubber suspension damping. The forces involved are double ended - you have the groove applying a force to one end of the cantilever via the stylus. The other end of the cantilever has forces being applied from the arm motion. The 2 forces are not in sync because there is a suspension joint between the cantilever and the arm. In order to conceptualise this, think of 2 people holding a pipe and each one trying to move it sideways out of sync with the other. That is what the cantilever experiences. It is not a pendulum and it is not a harmonic oscillator. The Wikipaedia example you have chosen does not apply. Rather than get lost in fanciful mathematics the bottom line is that the cantilever flexes when faced with an eccentric record, even more so with added lead mass. I quote Bruce Thigpen directly the cartridge will "see" .55Hz mounted in any tonearm, more so in one with higher horizontal inertia
I don't think Kuzma means the stylus does not deflect at all at .55Hz, that would defy physics Postulating that the cantilever does not flex with an eccentric record and that adding mass has no impact defies physics. |
Just wanted to add a couple of thoughts re the HP manifold. In a couple of the previous posts there appeared to be the suggestion that the HP manifold was not necessarily a worthwhile upgrade over the original LP manifold. Dave has corroborated what I have always felt: that the HP version is very worthwhile and a very significant upgrade over the LP version. After living with the LP version for several years before upgrading to the HP, I am confident that Dave's experience mirrors mine. I bring this up since the 2.5 manifold is no longer available, so this is an interesting option for all owners of the ET2 for a very reasonable price. Of course, the pump/compressor has to be a suitable one. |
My ET spring a leak, actually one of the o'rings failed. This necessitated disassembly. I took the opportunity to give it a spring clean and weigh it. Total weight excluding cartridge was 86 grams (95 grams with cartridge). I have on loan a standard I beam, counter weight assembly (thank you Grant) this weighs in at 47 grams, excluding the spindle clamp. This would put the total weight of a standard ET2 up to 77 grams with an aluminium wand and 85 grams with a magnesium wand. It is my intention to revisit the use of a sprung counterweight. I first did this test some 16 years ago and preferred a fixed counter weight. Before I made the decision to change, I considered the ramifications of such a move. One parameter which was looked at was tracking of eccentric records. I did not want to damage my cartridge and records with the stylus slewing about in the groove.
With this issue, resonance theory saved the day.
A way back in this thread, I posted a transmissibility graph. I had hoped that this would resolve the discussion. This shows structural movement for various excitation frequencies above and below a given resonance frequency. The resonance frequency of the counterweight assembly ranges from 2 to 5 hz. The excitation frequency from an eccentric record at 33 rpm is 0.55 hz.
If we apply this 0.55 hz input to the sprung counterweight arm, we can see what happens... transmissibility approaches 1. This means that the whole structure moves. The cartridge "sees" the counterweight.
Lets put this clearly. When tracking an eccentric record with a standard ET2, the stylus/cantilever is required to accelerate sideways, 1320 times per LP side, the TOTAL weight of the arm; wand, gooseneck, spindle, cartridge, PLUS I beam and counterweights. Depending upon the counterweights used and the weight of the cartridge, this total can approach 100 grams. The same ball park as my arm.
|
Excellent! Congrats, Dave. Let me know when you are ready and I will send you the wire loom for a straight shot from cart clips to preamp to try. I think you will find that revelatory as well. |
The HP manifold for my ET-Two 2.0 arm arrived from Bruce yesterday. After a much easier-than-anticipated swap out of the manifolds (simple thumb-push out and in), I cranked up the regulators to deliver 17 psi to the arm and settled in for a listening session that stretched into the wee hours of the morning and much of today.
To say that the HP manifold made a significant sonic improvement would be a colossal understatement. Each and every aspect of reproduction improved by a major step function. No need to specify micro/macro dynamics, impact of attack, clarity of decay, detail retrieval, low-frequency definition, warmth/richness, soundstage imaging/layering, space/air/transparency, or other descriptives. It simply improved them all and by a large margin. Night and day. REALISM!
Keep in mind that I had already recently upgraded the air supply system (Medo compressor, DIY surge tank, dual regulators, etc) and, while these were not revelatory until coupled with the HP manifold, surely all of those upgrades now contribute substantially to the overall result. I would be thrilled even had these upgrades cost 10 times what they actually did.
Many thanks to all of you on this thread, either by documenting these improvements here or by response to me directly, and especially to Frogman for providing advice, information, and the inspiration to achieve this elevated level of performance from my analog rig.
I am eager to rediscover the sound of my LP collection "as if for the first time".
Dave
|
Dover
"Loading the tonearm with mass, as Richardkrebs has advocated, increases inertia, and as the groove moves in and out, the increased resistance to lateral movement means that the cantilever will flex more and the measurement of the groove modulation will be impaired and inaccurate.
This is the fundamental principle upon which Bruce designed the LOW mass, decoupled counterweight ET2. Richardkrebs in this thread has advocated converting this tonearm into a very HIGH Mass arm. He also advocates removing the decoupling. These alterations add 60g to the effective mass of his ET2, increasing inertia and resistance to lateral motion by over 300% compared to a standard ET2.
These gross alterations will result in destroying the inherent advantages that the LOW mass ET2 offers in
superior tracking and minimising distortion."
This is what you wrote on date xx ..... take your pick.
Repetition is the sincerest form of flattery. |
12-04-13: John47
I suggested you drive quickly over speed bumps and see whether you need damping Your analogy does not apply. The goals are quite different. If a record has a warp, for example, the goal is to measure the groove modulations, not the size of the warp in the record. If the cartridge is impeded from moving up and down with the warp, then the measurement of the groove modulation will be grossly inaccurate. This also applies with lateral motion. Loading the tonearm with mass, as Richardkrebs has advocated, increases inertia, and as the groove moves in and out, the increased resistance to lateral movement means that the cantilever will flex more and the measurement of the groove modulation will be impaired and inaccurate. This is the fundamental principle upon which Bruce designed the LOW mass, decoupled counterweight ET2. Richardkrebs in this thread has advocated converting this tonearm into a very HIGH Mass arm. He also advocates removing the decoupling. These alterations add 60g to the effective mass of his ET2, increasing inertia and resistance to lateral motion by over 300% compared to a standard ET2. These gross alterations will result in destroying the inherent advantages that the LOW mass ET2 offers in superior tracking and minimising distortion. Numorous contributors to this thread have found that setting the arm up as per Bruces recommendations produces superior sound which is clearly audible. |
Something I have never seen before and here at audiogon. NIB Stock ET2 New in the box according to the ad. Not affiliated with the ad. hey - it even comes with a damping trough! I find the nice thing about this damping trough is that it gives you another option. (Be nice if my wife and kids came with options) I have found some records sound great no matter how you play them. Others contain great music but the way the record was made .... leaves something to be desired. All it takes is a quick turn of the paddle screw to engage and disengage it. the thing I don't like about the trough is it can be messy. If away for a few days I like to cover my table. you need to be careful with the fluid, even though there is only 1 cc of oil in it. |
“If the goal were to keep the cartridge still, then one would never reach the end of the record.
The record groove is not a straight line; it is a spiral with a decreasing radius that requires the cartridge to move to the center of the record as it plays.”
Mumbo Jumbo from Dover.
When you ran these same arguments months ago I suggested you drive quickly over speed bumps and see whether you need damping.
Better still: disconnect one end of the rear dampers of your car (not difficult to do) and drive quickly over speed bumps. Tell us whether you need dampers. Remember to fasten your seat belt! |
Slaw - As I was curious I sent an email to Jun-Air on weekend when I saw your post. Their help desk was open this morning. I received a response. fyi. Just great customer service btw. Re: A Jun-Air 16-25 w the moisture trap/container option. When the compressor reaches it's max setting, it cuts off and immediately starts expelling air. Can you offer any advice in how to troubleshoot this problem. > > Hi It sounds like a unloader valve is sticking. Thanks, Garry Garry Unrath Technical Assistance/sales Ph. 269-926-6171 ext 1114 > > Thanks Gary How would you recommend fixing this ? Replacing a part or maybe opening it up - can the valve be lubricated in some way? Chris > > Hi Chris First I would try cleaning out with electrical contact cleaner. If that does not help I would suggest a new one, part number 6973080. Thanks, Garry Do you mean to tell us all, they have Home Depots in Canada??? yeah - you know the damn stores are everywhere - at least 70-100 in Ontario There are 10 within an hours of drive of me incl. one 7 mins away by car (or 45 mins away by horse & buggy) Regarding the Timeter pump - can't recall which model you have. Mine is the Aridyne 3000. There is no brass lip to wear. It has a hours counter on it that when reached - hospitals are required to replace them. They are cheap on ebay and the quality of air is the best I have ever experienced. Its a 50 psi pump that I steal 19 psi from and the rest going into the atmosphere. Because of this and with some of the funny posts hear lately, I am thinking of hooking up an extra line for myself this winter - you know - for when the posts crack me up to the point of having trouble breathing. Its around 60-65 db exposed and not closed in so it needs a separate room. |
12-01-13: Richardkrebs
H F Dover.
Still....relative to the groove.
Everyone else understood what I meant. Thank you for that feedback. I'm surprised the results from the Eksen Research survey were available so soon. |
Dlcockrum Yes I agree that damping may be required in some cases, and that running the paddle at the surface would be best. That is how I set the paddle with the Townsend TT. However, the application of damping should be a last resort. In my experience many folk have applied damping to cure a "resonance" that has resulted from poor set up eg VTA, tracking force, etc and could have been removed by careful set up and in the case of the ET tuning.. I have used electromagnetic damping on my ET2 as discussed earlier in this thread. The damping is created by eddy currents which are only generated when the arm moves relative to the magnet. I have run the ET2 for 25 years and found that the higher compliance cartirdges such as my Shure V15vmr benefitted most from electromagnetic damping. With lower compliance cartridges such as Madrigal Carnegie, Koetsu, Denon 103 and Benz Micro fluid damping slugs the sound in my experience. Bear in mind that I run a decoupled counterweight assembly rather than a sprung counterweight - this has the advantage of keeping the ET2 horizontal mass as low as possible. As your friend Frogman has found, running the counterweight decoupled has produced quicker, more transparent bottom end in his system.The set up procedure he described above is the same as I have used. A little history here - If you read Bruces manual and patents he starts with a low mass arm, and then brings the effective horizontal mass up very gently by providing variable spring rates on the decoupled counterweight. This is formulated to keep the differential resonances between horizontal and vertical in sync with the compliance of the cartridge and the Q of the system. The Q is related to the dampening of the oscillation - the use of magnetic dampening will shift this slightly. Very small adjustments can give quite dramatic changes to the sound, especially in speed, transparency and articulation. Krebs approach has been to load up his ET2 with 30+ grams of lead. He has also removed the decoupling spring from the I beam. Effectively he has added some 60g to the horizontal mass of the ET2. It is no wonder that he has changed his mind after 20 years and is now using fluid damping. Mass increases inertia and has no dampening properties. The high horizontal mass he is running has increased the side forces on the cantilever by over 300% when the arm moves back and forth increasing cantilever flex and distortion. Quote from Thigpen If the weight is coupled the system resonant frequency would be extremely low, a resonant frequency at 3Hz with a significant rise in response (6-12dB) results, which would affect tracking slightly because of the asymmetric position of the cantilever, we opt for splitting the horizontal resonance frequency into two points and lowering the "Q" which improves tracking.
More important than tracking, the intent was to reduce the modulation effects of low frequency energy (FM and AM) that increase distortion in the cartridge I note that DGarretson has been experimenting with his Terminator tonearm. The Terminator in standard form has a much higher horizontal effective mass than the ET. DGarretson has reduced the horizontal mass quite substantially by reproducing some of the parts and yielded significant improvements. |
|
Hi Dover,
It would seem to me that the constant corrective motion of the arm to compensate for LP production imperfections, either lateral or vertical (warps), would involve some degree of "overshoot" and, thus, generate some stylus/groove misalignment due to inertia and that a properly implemented damping system would reduce this overshoot while having minimal impact on the initial transient response, ie using a minimal amount of the damping fluid such that the paddle only skims the fluid's surface (per Frogman).
I would not argue that the use of damping is a sonic tradeoff in practice and would not be desirable in a world of perfect LPs and ultra-stable resonance-free cartridges, but perhaps it is a desirable solution in our real world of neither?
Dave |
H F Dover.
Still....relative to the groove.
Everyone else understood what I meant. |
Slaw, sounds like your Jun-air's moisture reservoir doubles as a pressure check valve. Seems to me the answer is to keep the pressure at just below "maximum". My homemade surge tank uses a check valve that I cannibalized from the Airtech (with Wisa pump) tank that exploded due to the Medo's higher pressure. That was in spite of the presence of said check valve! Be careful and make sure your tank can handle the pressure. |
11-28-13: Richardkrebs
Since the key to performance of the trough is to better keep the cartridge body still, it seems to be the place to position it. This seemingly innocuous statement requires careful examination as it continues the flawed thinking espoused earlier in this thread. If the goal were to keep the cartridge still, then one would never reach the end of the record. The record groove is not a straight line; it is a spiral with a decreasing radius that requires the cartridge to move to the center of the record as it plays. Furthermore if the record is not perfectly centered, even by 0.01mm, then the cartridge is required to move in and out from the center approximately 660 times for a standard 33rpm record at Industry Standard or 0dB (20 minutes of music). This means that the arm will reverse direction 1320 times within approximately 20 minutes of music. (Is anyone here still of the view that adding lead mass to an ET2 that is reversing direction 1320 times per side of a record is a good idea?) There are two goals which are in conflict with each other - 1. To ensure that the cartridge maintains a constant relationship with the groove the cartridge will be constantly moving to align itself with the groove. 2. To ensure that the recovery of as much information as possible which would suggest keeping the cartridge as still as possible. On the one hand we want the cartridge to maintain a position that at all times it aligns the cantilever pivot point to the center of the groove. In order to achieve this, the cartridge must be able to move laterally freely and unimpeded whilst playing. Any addition of mass or "apparent" mass by adding lead, stiffening the counterweight spring or adding fluid damping will increase the inertia and will reduce the ability of the cartridge to maintain the correct alignment with the groove instantaneously. The increased inertia will introduce lag to the response time of the cartridge tracing the groove and increase cantilever flex and distortion. Some may not hear this effect, but it is there and is readily apparent in a resolving system with good fundamental timing. If you want to hear the concept proposed by Richardkrebs that the cartridge should remain still here is a link to the Transcriptors Transcriber. This turntable has a fixed arm which tracks linearly by holding the cartridge still while moving the platter underneath. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ_r0Vk9Ct8Have a listen. This set up has more WOW (as in pitch variation) than a wind up gramophone on its last legs. This is the sound you will end up with if you add enough lead, fluid damping and/or remove the counterweight spring as has been suggested. As Frogman has confirmed with his experiments - when he decouples the spring and lowers the apparent mass, he gets a quicker and more tuneful bass response. Less weighty but better timing. The use of fluid damping may ameliorate a resonance issue with some particular arm/cartridge combinations, but it comes at the cost of compromising the ability of the cartridge to follow the groove by increasing the resistance to tangential movement - it slugs the sound. A better solution is to ensure that arm/cartridge resonances are minimised such that fluid damping is not required. I would also point out, since someone mentioned the Townsend Rock, I sold several of these when I was an importer/retailer in the 80’s. The use of fluid damping in this TT killed the sound so much, that cartridge differences were nullified. For example, one customer could not hear the difference between a Madrigal Carnegie and a Koetsu Red. I also ran an ET2 on the Townsend Rock for a while, with a Shure V15Vmr and can assure you the sound was much improved in speed, timing, articulation and transparency without fluid damping. Having dealt with Max Townshend directly, I should point out that Max’s reference cartridge, at the time he designed the Rock and the fluid damping mechanism, was the London Decca Gold cartridge, a poorly constructed cartridge with no cantilever and notorious for it’s poor tracking ability. It was in this context that he came up with the trough design. |
I just installed a Jun Air 6-25 today and find it runs for 2 1/2 minutes and then shuts off for 8. Not bad.
Tim |
Wait!, I missed something. Do you mean to tell us all, they have Home Depots in Canada??? |
Ct0517
That sounds exactly what I'm experiencing with my Timeter!
The solution is: a local/or alternative for my Jun-Air.
What would these companies do without our issues?!
Thanks! |
Hi Frogman
Glad you liked some of that music.
The artist's liner notes appear to be listed under the site's store tab. Looks like Gliere is hidden under the first one.
Jeff Beecher - Bass, Rachel Mercer - Cello, Vanessa Lee - Piano
Cheers |
Hi Slaw
maybe this helps maybe not.
Anyway - I have a Campbell Hausfeld compressor that I use with some air tools.
Last winter it experienced the same symptom you described from the tube going from the tank to the pressure gauge.
In my case it was the brass insert and delrin sleeve had worn out.
Not until it was to max pressure did it start expelling the air.
I brought the worn brass sleeve to home depot and I picked up a new one.
The lip on the brass sleeve had worn out down to almost nothing. this fixed the problem for a couple dollars.
good luck with yours. there are a couple guys with Jun-Air's here hopefully they chime in. |
Hi guys, while you all are on this topic, I'd like to know if any of you have experience with the Jun-Air 16-25 compressor? I've had one waiting in the wings for a long time and it has one issue. It has the option/with a tank that captures excess oil/moisture. When it reaches the maximum pressure setting, it immediately starts expelling air, then at the appropriate low pressure setting, starts the process all over again. I feel like it's a simple fix if the solution can be identified. A stuck valve maybe? Any help will be verymuch appreciated. |
Thanks for the links, Chris. Very nice! Great to hear the Gliere; love that piece. I couldn't find artist info on the site. Is it there? |
Richard and Frogman thanks for the comments. BT in the damping trough manual You can see visually small ripples on the surface of an LP as it is turning. These continuously excite the tonearm resonance. I am firmly in the camp of regardless what your vinyl playback system is - it is but a slave to the actual record. I am also a hobbyist and not a manufacturer, dealer, distributor of analog products and or services. imo - those that set the standards for records many years ago - never imagined $5000 cartridges, $5000 tonearms and $30,000 tables of today. If they did they would have come up with better standards for the records. Frogman - as far as tone controls go I agree 100 per cent. We know when they make a record they boost the highs to drown out the cutter noise. And reduce the lows so the grooves are smaller (to fit 20 mins of music) and to keep the stylus from flying out of the groove when we play a record. We then use our cartridge and equalizer (also called a preamp/phono stage) to re-equalize levels to where we can hear it all. So to those audiophile purists that balk at equalizers - your phono stage just happens to be one. If you play vinyl you use one. possibly the result of too much L-tryptophan :-) To Frogman and others possibly suffering from Tryptophan may I recommend some music. In digital form now, originated from an analog master tape. The sampler tracks are not downloadable (yet) but can be enjoyed with either headphones hooked to your laptop or a line feed from laptop's headphone jack going to your preamp. http://ultraanaloguerecordings.com/wpsite/sample-tracks/I am not affiliated with the site but am a customer of their tapes. Cheers |
****My thinking is it therefore makes sense to have the trough paddle attached to the end bearing cap as designed.****
Chris, interesting consideration, but I am not so sure that is always the "best" location. I use the trough as intended out of convenience, but have always been intrigued by the Townshend approach of silicone damping at the headshell. Additionally, since "We change resonances by using 1-3 springs and lead weight positioning", is it not possible that is precisely why damping closer to the headshell makes sense? IOW, if we optimize resonance characteristics at the rear bearing cap, introducing damping at that point would then change that resonance "balance" to the extent that, for instance, a different spring might perform better with a given cartridge.
Our sound systems are still so imperfect that, wether we like to admit it or not, we use resonance "control" as tone controls at least to some degree. Seems to me that in an LP playback "system" what we hear as sound improvements or degradations when manipulating resonances are the result of how those resonances affect the actual performance of a cartridge/tonearm system in absolute terms not just in the subjective sense of, for instance, preferring the brightness through a particular frequency band that particular resonances may introduce. To my way of thinking it is easy to understand how certain resonances may affect the actual working of a cartridge's suspension and motor given the very low level at which the mechanical to electrical conversion takes place. On the other hand resonances that occur within, say, a turntable's plinth will affect perceived frequency balance but, seems to me, are unlikely to affect the actual mechanical "performance" of the turntable. However, those same resonances will travel to the cartridge and may affect the performance of the cartridge, so it may make sense to damp as close as possible to the cartridge. Lastly, the "shock absorber" benefit of fluid damping in stabilizing the arms movement will be there regardless of the location.
Just some ruminations possibly the result of too much L-tryptophan :-)
Hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving day! |
Chris.
Hmmm. Haven't put any thought into the trough location for literally years.
I put my design trough at the wand end to reduce any shake rattle and roll of the wand itself and by extension the cartridge. Since the key to performance of the trough is to better keep the cartridge body still, it seems to be the place to position it. We have the minimum number of joints between the paddle and the cartridge, so this should be the most efficacious place, aside from putting the paddle on the headshell like Townsend did. I was just not prepared to deal with the hassle of this approach.
My arm would need a bit of engineering to position the trough at the CW end. Difficult but not impossible. |
Hi Richard
regarding the damping trough location.
Are you still using your trough ahead of the manifold on your custom ET2 ?
My thoughts have changed on this.
The trough paddle is attached to end bearing cap on the stock ET2 and ET2.5.
The cap also holds the I Beam => which holds the ET2, 2.5 family jewels (lead weights and spring/s)
That end cap is therefore the common joiner for all of them.
We change resonances by using 1-3 springs and lead weight positioning,
My thinking is it therefore makes sense to have the trough paddle attached to the end bearing cap as designed.
your thoughts ...
others ?
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Dover, by loosening the screw the bass range gained clarity and speed. The bass is not necessarily stronger, but instead of some bass notes sounding simply like amorphous low frequency energy there is air around the notes, much better pitch recognition, and the sense of a low frequency "floor" in the music wether there is actual bass in the music or not. Of course, this was after experimenting to find just the right amount of loosening of the screw. In my setup what worked best is to loosen it completely and then tighten it so the I beam spring sees the slightest amount of "grab". Thanks again for the suggestion. |
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and it can be taken away only over my dead body. Hi Harold - the last time I heard the words sir I was working :^( You are a gentleman sir. The stark reality of it for me is that I am a middle aged runner; and whenever I get a muscle pull, strain or just have pain, its taking longer and longer to recover. As I come to grips with my own mortality every day, I gain more and more respect for all those things around us that have passed the test of time and will still be around when I am not. Now as long as we are making clothes with thread, this Platine will provide beautiful music with no bearing to wear for someone. Likewise the ET2 if you feed it good air. The Transfi looks like an interesting design - unfortunately my personal guard comes down a 1/2 hour into the music and I become a bit of a klutz - with its permanent spot over the platter I fear for my lp and cartridge. The ET2 is pretty much klutz proof' although I did behead an XV1 once that was attached to an ET2; but it was on an armpod 15 feet way from the table. Still gives me the shakes thinking about it. thank you again Axel for bringing it back to life. If I didnt have many years of schooling to still pay for, of all the newer tonearms I have seen the Schoreder Linear Tracker looks really interesting to me. You see, my favorite song is "Harold the Barrel" from 1971. So cool. Without thinking I used my initials and some random numbers for my moniker - they now follow me through Audiogon eternity. I was 8 in 1971 and am a Genesis fan and the other British super groups having grown up with them, their lps and concerts. They made a huge impact in Canada and myself. Springsteen also ranks very high - this is just as much to me about the meaning of the words in the songs having the capability to stir the blood in you, as the music itself. I listened to Devils and Dust last night. Knowing the story your moniker now ranks in my personal top four along with Swampwalker, Frogman and Vegasears - the last one doesn't need a story :^) Cheers Chris |
Dave, What a nice surprice as I had no idea what you have been doing after your Trans-Fi wand mods. I was wondering why´s the sudden silence though. Meanwhile I have been doing my own TT project... and watching music videos on YouTube. Rare unseen videos though but a bloody waste of time.
Anyway, congrats for your fantastic vintage DD TT, it must be very special. Seems to be slightly better than your VPI.
Hmm, it may be quite boring to play only 45´s with 2 linear trackers on the modded TNT. But I´m sure you will find a solution soon.
The ET-2 and the Trans-Fi tracker on a super deck ! Finally something really interesting at A´gon, Evolution gaining speed.
We will observe your progress. Thanks in advance. |
Thank you, sir Chris
Nice to meet you. I very much appreciate your love and affection/opinions about linear air bearing trackers as general but I have no idea nor experience of ET-2, and especially your intelligence for having got one of the most exotic and mightiest TTs, the Platine.
Its magnetic field levitation/non-mechanical bearing must something like drive a good old Citroen. I fell for the BX more than 20 years ago and it can be taken away only over my dead body.
And me ? I´m just a lawnlower. And part of the GENESIS mythology I´m afraid. But I´m not like Harold the Barrel, that quite peculiar yet nice fellow from early days still going strong. And I appreciate him greatly as well. You see, my favorite song is "Harold the Barrel" from 1971.
Excuse me my ignorance about these fascinating things going on at A´gon lately but I´ve been busy with my own rather unorthodox experiments. In fact, I need to do a couple of final adjustments on my TT project right now.
Funny thing is, when I turn my back to A´gon for a few months at least one person has taken a giant leap in TTs... Well, you can´t stop Evolution can you.
Good day to you.
Harold |
Hello Harold, I hope some day to compare an ET to my Trans-Fi-- maybe when I find space to set up the VPI TNT and Kenwood L-07D side by side. Squeezing two linear arms onto one turntable wouldn't leave space for an LP... |
Dlcockrum PS: I also have a nice stable of MMs: Empire 4000D/III, Signet TK-7LCa, Sonus Gold Blue, Micro Acoustics 530mp and 2002e, Astatic MF200, ADC XLM II Improved, and Shure V15 Type III MR. I read that some of you have liked the Empire with the ET Two. Is that still your opinion? What about the others? A really nice set of cartridges Dave. You will want to hear them all over again with the HP manifold. When you are up and running with it let me know if you would also like to experience the "420str". I can loan it to you for a few months. For everyone on this thread. I am very glad that Banquo363 decided to chime in here. You see it was Banquo's personal 420str that he donated.... Bruce received, listened to and provided his review of here... I am just the holder of it for the moment. Cheers |
Dave/Frogman -
Interesting your comments on going back to the aluminium arm with MM's.
With my aluminium arm I removed the heat shrink and internal foam. This yielded a lighter sound, but cleaner, clearer and less smear with both high and low compliance cartridges -Shure V15Vmr/Denon 103/Carnegie/Koetsu Black.
I also removed the soft teflon from the headshell and epoxied in a piece of carbon fiber. If you dont mind butchering your arm tube a little all you do is prise open the end, the teflon will pull straight out if you can get a good grip on it with some long nose pliers. Then just cut and insert the carbon fiber with epoxy and clamp the headshell up in a vice.
In my view with the low compliance cartridges tweaking the spring counterweight set up is plenty sufficient to get the optimum without having to add mass to the arm tube. I had no tracking problems with low compliance cartirdges in my lightened aluminium armtube. Follow the instructions on counterweight position, ie low mass further out and tuning.
When you go to 2 or 3 springs you are increasing the mechanical coupling of the mass of the counterweight and the cartridge sees more horizontal mass. I still prefer decoupling the spring by loosening the end cap and using teflon wedges to dampen the swinging counterweight motion even with low compliance cartridges.
Frogman you reported hearing more bass notes when you loosened the end cap off. Any update on this ?
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Harold-not-the-barrel -
The ET-2 is another very interesting tone arm though. Harold-not-the-barrel - my thoughts exactly over 10 years ago, and still today. Welcome to the thread. Is there a story behind your moniker ? Cheers Chris |
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The easy way to tell if you are looking at an ET2 versus a ET2.5 ?
To be so obvious that it is over looked ?
We need to draw our attention to the end cap holding the counterweight assembly.
On the base ET2 the end cap clearly overlaps the skinnier spindle.
On the ET 2.5 the cap will appear flush with the spindle as the wider spindle has an aluminum insert that the end cap couples to.
Cheers |
Dave,
Prior to my buying the magnesium arm wand I used the regular aluminum wand with various MC cartridges including some that were much more "aggressive" than the Shelter including the Spectral, VDH Grasshopper and others, with no issues that I could definitely attribute to the aluminum wand. I think you would be fine with the aluminum; you can always easily add additional mass and/or damping to the wand. I will say, however, that on Dover's recommendation I went back to the aluminum wand when I started using MM's again with beneficial results. You can extrapolate from that experience. In general, the Shelter behaves very well in the ET2 with well controlled highs. The issue of output is curious. The Shelter plays almost as loud into my EAR phoo stage as a Benz Ruby H which has an output spec of .8mV @ 3.54 cm/sec; go figure. |
Thanks as always, Frogman. I found a decent deal on a new Shelter 901 Mk II. Several reviews and owner posts say that the Mk II has similar tonality but incrementally better overall sound quality and a slightly higher output (.55mV) compared to the original. I am surprised that Shelter uses a .3 X .7 elliptical stylus on the 901. Care to speculate on the compatibility (sound quality/tracking performance) of a Shelter 901 Mk II with the aluminum armwand?
Dave |
