****as nice a(s) the equipment is.****; and as the ET2'r babe so nicely demonstrates. I'll bet there's some passion for music there! Jazz, in particular. Huh, you say? Look up the original meaning of the word as used by musicians :-)
Slaw, I guess what I am trying to say is (and, apologies if my previous post came across as snippy) that passion is great; but, never stop having plain-ol fun with your music. Regards. |
Slaw, as Richard said, you are not alone. Its a bit presumptuous to assume that because there were no responses to your "diatribes" (your word) that you are the only one with passion for the music. You are clearly very passionate about your music and I admire and commend you for that. There are many reasons why some may not be able to post for a few days and those reasons should be obvious to someone like yourself who has previously taken protracted periods of "time off" from posting; it is not a personal slight nor indication of lack of passion.
Since you stated that you dreaded the responses I will oblige you and take you to task over the issue of passion for music. You have an obvious passion for music that you like; but, it seems, only if it sounds good ("audiophile-good"). A while back, and in response to your suggestion that we persue a common reference, I recommended an LP that you deemed "unlistenable" due to its sound. That came as a surprise to me since it was an LP that is highly regarded for its sound quality as well as its music. I would respectfully suggest that the strongest passion for music would allow us to ignore less than perfect sound and simply enjoy the music; yes, even on a table radio. Good music doesn't need the help of fancy equipment to make its point; as nice a the equipment is. |
Slaw.
Fear not your are not alone!
Way back in this thread, I think, I talked about the connection with music being the key. The way it makes us "FEEL"
I also talk about this on my web site.
A system is just a collection of machines, sometimes this menagerie comes together in such a way that we connect directly with the music. It is a wonderful sensation and I could not live without it!
cheers. |
Harold-not-the-barrel: Here are the questions I should have asked...
(1) The marker you gave 'O'(I can't duplicate it), followed by mad scientists, .....
Why is it you and only you who have the courage to respond?
Why is it when (I), give from my heart, my feelings regarding the whole musical experience, regarding us , vinyl spinners,... no one, no one but you responds?
Is it the lack of passion for the musical experience?
Is it that others just want to respond to those who may have specific knowledge of equipment they own?
Maybe it's because no one really wants to address the main issue. That main issue is MUSIC. It's not equipment. It's not "mine is better than yours, it's not, who has listened to or had the opportunity to evaluate more eguipment...
Are any of you seeing my reason for this post?
There was a time, not long ago that I was intimidated by this whole process. No longer.
I think this is where I part ways with you all.
I just don't get it. |
Everyone: I now see that, based on your non-response to the postings I made, I need to make my focus elsewhere. It's sad that others don't share my passion for music. I'm afraid... (and I eluded to it earlier)... that my fear was the majority of you were more interested in equipment to reproduce music well, than a passion for music reproduced well and the software needed. My friends, there is a difference! |
Harold-not-the-barrel: I guess my diatribe was kind of my "swan song". I was kind of dreading any responses but was ultimately disappointed that there were really no responses.
For me, music reproduced well in my home is my life. It's what means the most to me. From other's non-response tells me I may be the only one with the passion I have deep within me. I am really sorry I am the only one here who feels this way. |
Harold-not-the-barrel: I submit the following, I "needed" to get the above (out of me), you see, it's the on-going conversation I have within myself....
First & foremost... I love my ET arm, it will always be the mainstay of my system. The ET... for me, it's like some feel about the vinyl playing ritual itself. It's the CONECTION to the music, the connection to your system, the connection that brings so much enjoyment from this hobby, or dare I say, life.
For me, If I'm "involved" with my music playback system, I'm much more connected, much more (a part), much more invested.
Music IS emotion! |
Slaw - I logged on and tuned in to your response regarding a female fan of the ET. Now, I'm in heaven! Not just any ET2 fan Slaw.....let me introduce you to .... DorothyI don't think I need to warn you if you read Frogman's post; that it appears u will have stiff competition from him for her attention. Appears we have similar great tastes ... beyond the ET2. She looks like a good runner to me.... |
Hi Harold
For me personally, I have been called mad, and other words I can't use here... many times; but never followed by the word scientist.
With the way the world has become so automated and digitized, IMO anyone into vinyl today who sets up his/her own table, tonearm and cartridge must have some scientist seed in their DNA ?
Cheers |
You ET-2 guys are the mad scientists `Ö´ you constantly and fearlessly keep experimenting. Fantastic hobby, very interesting reading. :-) |
"mad scientist" :^) I agree Frogman on your description of Bruce. I can also tell everyone that in talking to Bruce about this thread last year he was touched by it; I actually sensed some emotion in his voice, but he does not read this thread or any others. He is a seasoned manufacturer and provider of audio components and services for many years. He stays away from public chat forums. He is also very busy and travels alot; he does have his own plane I believe. Getting his review of the Acutex 420 str to post here ....was to me a bigger accomplishment for myself, than many work projects I have been involved with ! There are six of the rotary subs installed at Niagara Falls as part of the show that explains how the Falls was created. have not heard them, came close one time recently when we were there; but time did not permit and teenagers can be very unruly - you know ? If you have a look at this image and note the words hearing threshold in the legend on the right. http://www.eminent-tech.com/woofercomparison.htmlMe thinks Bruce will need to update the Legend with words - one for Human hearing threshold and one for "Elephant" when his study is complete ? Kind of gives new meaning to "Elephant in the Room" ? Frogman - that Meitner turntable you referenced... here is pic, http://www.museatex.com/at-2.jpgI don't get it. The record would need to be really thick and no warps to even work ? imo - vibrations would be headed to the center where the bearing lives. |
"Audio Gymnastics"... Definition: in audio reproduction terms, IMO, it means a "passing moment in time" where one enjoys the sound one is hearing, however, this "passing moment" doesn't please in the long term.
We are all willing to make these momentary audio pleasures a focus, while "in the moment" very compelling, in the long term, "uninvolving".
This is a very compelling aspect of how we are drawn in to buying very expensive audio components.
Upon evaluating our life long audio pleasing "moments", we, if we are being honest, "WAKE UP", to the fact that we are just "feeding" the "machine'.
All we need to do is please ourselves, not what we feel, (not by other's standards, saying we should please ourselves).
This, my friends, is how some audio companies, feed upon our most basic, true, feelings. Yet, without much thought, we succumb to their knowledge of this and we "line" their pockets with our hard earned money.
Is there a "Book" 3 in the works? |
"The Book", Chapter one...
Music.. what is it? How does it connect with us? What is it about people playing instruments, reaching deep into their souls that, somehow reaches into our souls and then makes us "clean"?
This very subject could have been a novel idea for a dissertation.
The instruments are an extension of our "very being". The very basic feelings that are within us all. So, what does it take for these very basic instincts, that are within us all, to "come out"?
This question is essential to our understanding of who we all are.
These are the very questions I should have been asking myself back in the late 60's early 70's.
Is it time for Chapter two?...
No matter... I think that many chapters later, Bruce has found a way for us all to experience these unasked question, whether we realize them or not. |
"The Common Man"...(me)...
I'm here for you.. This is who I am. I'm an avid music lover. The exception.. (a music lover who enjoys reproduced music done "well").
I've always put my life's emphasis on high quality music reproduction. Myteen years, I was the guy with the "van", I escorted my friends around for all our "enjoyment"! I used to frequent music stores, purveying the latest speakers and such.I realize now,I was listening for the best sound.
Thirty years later, I'm still searching for the "pot of gold" the best sound. I've found that now.
There's a price point... the plateau were one realizes that to gain more musical satisfaction in any realistic/financial way, without spending "major bucks", you find a "resting place".
My "resting place" is with the EAR, using the MM phono stage w/ Telefunken/ Seimens tubes and high dissipation "underpinning", and a Grover power cord.
This, my friends, MAKES music. It doesn't make "audio gymnastics".
Yes, there's a lot of gear I'd like to try/build, but folks, I'm perfectly happy with this EAR and my Acutex cartridge!
What brought this issue to mind was, I was playing the Allman Brother's "Enlightened Rogues" lp. Yes, the very one that doesn't get any press! This spoke to me, to who I really am. Why? This lp has the very soul of the AB, it has the boogie factor... so why does it not resonate with the "public"? This may be what sets people like me apart from the 'crowd".
FWIW, I feel this lp, my choice of the EAR, my current cartridge (Acutex), really speaks to the "Soul" of music reproduction!
The Book will follow! |
My mentioning of having to "ream out the spindle hole", got me to thinking. (Sorry).
We spend thousands of dollars on equipment. Then we see a need for (tt owners) high priced speed controllers. I hear no one talking about the lps that we so cherish, being pressed in the very way that most of the time gives a market for these high priced accessories. If you pay attention, I'd say 80% (conservatively) of the lps we purchase today are "off center". This is (the) very basic issue, that we, (as people who spend a major part of our live's, by time and treasure and as lp listeners), should be more vocal about.
My audiophile "toolbox": I mentioned earlier the Bosch level, this should be in every audiophile's "toolbox" as should an Exacto knife,(lp players only), for reaming out the spindle holes of improperly pressed lps. There, I said it. I keep this knife very handy at every listening session.
If at some point in time, I put an lp up for sale, and that lp has gotten this treatment, you will be the beneficiary. |
I felt led to recommend another (lp). I've done very little record buying this year due to my focus on my tt project.
Nick Waterhouse "Holly". I hope you all audition this one on your favorite way to do so. This type of music just "moves" me. I submit, if you are not moved in any of these three basic ways, you are dead inside! (physically, emotionally, spiritually). For me.. it's all three. The sonics are very credible, not perfect. Here again, it's the overall interaction with the music that's important.
This record was pressed at Chad's Quality Record Pressing plant. I should say, I had to ream out the spindle hole (slightly) for proper tracking. Enjoy! |
Frogman & others: An example of how Bruce deals with his customers: Years ago, I called him on a Sat. I was having issues with air output. He (never) left me feeling my issue was not important. We talked for at least 30 minutes. I was the one that decided the conversation had reached it's end!
I hope and assume he's trained someone to "take over" when he's gone!?
He may be of a breed that we'll never see again? Let's support him/his products while he's here. |
Being anal has it's rewards.. at least in audio...
All my talk about "level", and other things....
When one gets to a certain level in audio, this becomes important! Somehow, all of this kind of this talk is somewhat "otherworldly" until, one get's to a certain level of audio reproduction. Then and only then, does one see the "lightbulb" go off. (Maybe this is why one has to pay $$$$ for an accurately machined tt!) Of coarse it is!
Frogman: I agree with your assessment of Bruce's personality. I wish I could be that way. The important thing is that we realize this and build upon it. |
Ct0517: I was currently listening to Nat King Cole, then I logged on and tuned in to your response regarding a female fan of the ET. Now, I'm in heaven!
Aguser: If you're still listening/reading, regarding my insistence on leveling. My earlier posts regarding differing manufacture's "varying degrees of trueness"...
Levels: There is a usefulness and a need for an accurate bubble level. However, when one considers the larger expanse of say an armboard or platter or the base, (in your case/and mine, the HW-19 series table), these larger areas are more accurately measured by a longer level because of these "varying degrees of trueness".
Challenge: Take a bubble level and place it anywhere you wish on any one part of your HW-19, (armboard, platter, base) then move it a few inches. I guarantee you, you'll get a different reading. This is the sole reason I'm posting here. Most people will take the manufacturer's table/it's individual parts, for granted as being true. A big mistake.
To get the most accurate reading, one needs to take the larger expanse of each individual part and then measure with an accurate level. I'm currently using a Bosch GPL3T laser level. It's about 10 inches long, has 3/D laser outputs and even has magnets on one side. It is nice that this level doubles it's effectiveness by playing a major role in my speaker set-up. Just don't get it close to your cartridge!
Ct0517: I think I could be bought for much less than that! LOL! |
Chris, Bruce is indeed a fascinating individual and his talent is obviously never in question. After half a dozen, or so, phone conversations over the years I have gotten the sense that he is a kind of "mad scientist"; and, I say that in the most positive way possible. He has always been willing to speak on the phone and provide help with not a bit of impatience, but never touts or hypes any of his products or ideas; he has a sense about him of very quiet confidence with a bit of dryness. Speaking of his subwoofer: I have often wondered how a person does and funds r&d for a product like that. How many can he possibly have sold so far? Have you ever heard/seen this thing? I would love to.
I too have been a fan of his planars and came very close to buying a pair of one the very first models (model # escapes me) of them years ago. I first heard them at a local dealer and a little later at an audio show here in town where his speakers and Meitner (another genius) products were part of a system. As much as I love Meitner products (I still have the old MTR 101's and Pa6i in a second system) the sound at the show was a disaster due to their use of the Meitner turntable. Remember that one? It is a beautiful thing and has no platter to speak of so any warps of the vinyl surface become extremely audible; at least that's what I heard that day. I kept wanting to ask the guy: can't you hear that! I think that unfortunately that experience derailed my interest in the speakers at that particular time. |
I came across this recent review for Bruce's speakers - ET LFT-8b. I owned 8a's at one time and regret letting them go. In the article I discovered something about Bruce that I found fascinating so I wanted to share. While my review of the LFT-8b was in progress, Thigpen went off to Africa to help with a study on the hearing of infrasound by elephants—he would be the man to go to for infra-sound all right. See rotarywoofer.com for more. The whole article. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/eminent-technology-lft-8b-loudspeaker/ |
Frogman - Your post made me spit up my drink. lol. Do you have a source? Where there is audiophile will - there is always a way. if there is interest... |
Fabulous piece of equipment!
Not a bad tonearm either :-)
Would love one of those t.... , ah, I mean, Tshirts.
Do you have a source?
Thanks. |
Hi Slaw, thanks for the lp recommendations. A Blues Man.... you are :^) Hope you don't mind; I put your recommendations in clickable form below to share with the others. Slaw
The Audioquest label gave us some FINE lps!
I can only remark on the ones that I own.
So, what's the difference? IMO, It's obviously the recording engineer, "Joe Harley", plus the total lack of compression! Terry Evans. "Puttin' It Down"Robert Lucas, "Luke & the Locomotives"
"Usin'"Mans's Blues"(I'm ready for a long term relationship, if, and only if, I can find a female music lover that is committed to this arm!)LOL! Slaw, well for me I have to say I am very happy that my wife puts up with my audio "shenanigans". I get away with alot...I don't want to push it anymore. however the further she stays away from the 2.0 and 2.5 the better. For you however let imagine this scenario. You are attending a big audio musical event. You visit one of the "big rooms", one where the sponsoring audio manufacturer has paid big bucks for the space. Ultra "high end gear" in there, and obviously this includes an analog setup. There are many people in this room. Turntable cost - $100,000 us. Tonearm cost - $15,000 us Cartridge cost - $7,000 us. The look on their faces when "this" person walks in......priceless $$ Happy Listening |
Ct0517: "None!" How many other tonearm owners are advocating their virtues?!!!
OK, Here's my ultimate lp recommendation! There are very few times that all of the stars align. This/these are those times.
The was a label: Audioquest, from years ago....
Majic.........
Something happens when people just want the very best, forgetting about there personal interests.
This, my friends, are the lps that represent the "very best". It will most likely never be produced again!
The Audioquest label gave us some FINE lps!
I can only remark on the ones that I own.
Robert Lucas, "Luke & the Locomotives"
"Usin'"Mans's Blues"
Terry Evans. "Puttin' It Down"
So, what's the difference? IMO, It's obviously the recording engineer, "Joe Harley", plus the total lack of compression!!!!!!!!!
Even the bass has noticeable transient response! Can you say that about any current,recording you are currently enamored with? Hell no!
If you have the time, seek these out! |
To all: My 25 + years of experience in audio, all comes down to this: common sense, logic, & listening.
Regarding the ET arm
(1) Logic: It's design allows the user/listener to track an lp as the original 'cutter head' does. (This is important)!
(2) Common sense: (Refer to the comment above) It's very gratifying that two of my "points" are in sync with one another. This is not "by chance".
(3) Does your listening time, make you want to either, quit or put thoughts in your head about the "next" time you can listen?
When your ET is set up RIGHT, (this isn't a forgon conclusion") you will say to yourself, "DAMN GOOD!", 'ALRIGHT", "This is what I always thought it should be'!
These days, time and time again, I just want to plop down in my listening seat and let life pass over me while I soak in the MUSIC! Life can be good. For me, right now, after 25 years of system building... life is Very, Very , Good!!! |
Ct0517,
We should note the findings of the many long time users here on this thread that take the ET to a much greater listener experience than even Bruce eluded to in his own manual. Those who have followed this thread closely will know exactly what I'm referring to. (Hence the "long term relationship")
There are several things that weren't specified in Bruce's manual. This IS the reason that this thread is SO valuable to me and to other interested parties!
(I'm ready for a long term relationship, if, and only if, I can find a female music lover that is committed to this arm!)LOL! |
Slaw
The purchase of the ET represents a forgone conclusion that you are and have every intention of reproducing excellent audio reproduction in your listening room. This tonearm is the equivalent of a long term relationship. One that will reward you by the more time/care/love that you are willing to put into it. Very well said Slaw. IMO you hit on ownership of this tonearm at its heart. The ET2 and ET 2.5, imo, are also like those rare products that put you in touch with your own mortality. Meaning in my case - thank you Bruce Thigpen for making a product that will probably last longer than me; and it lets me know this whenever I use it :^( I am being a little sarcastic obviously, but really I ask in this day and age ... how many products today fall into this category ? When set up per manual - consistent, reliable, can be modded, is tuneable, can accommodate all cartridges with appropriate armtube. Has already passed the hardest test of all. Time. I recently came upon this audiogon thread..... I think ET2'ers tend to take VTA for granted ? I guess I do too. We've discussed this topic here before. Note the comments from Lyra cartridge designer Johnathan Carr Cheers |
Slaw.
Many thanks for the info. It just goes to show, all over again, how important the air supply is.
cheers. |
Aguser, You will really do yourself a favor by taking to heart, Frogman & Ct0517's advice! My 'chiming in' on "leveling" is from 25+ years of experience with this arm. It does not hurt to level everything then "re-level". No kidding. Purchase an 'accurate' level. Don't take for granted that VPI, for instance, has provided you with a product that is "spot on". VPI out-sources their products to manufacturers that perform their duties to a certain "price" standard. This standard is no more than the "you get what you pay for" standard. I assume that now you have purchased the VPI Mk 3 and the ET, you are passionate about audio reproduction in your home. The purchase of the ET represents a forgone conclusion that you are and have every intention of reproducing excellent audio reproduction in your listening room. This tonearm is the equivelant of a long term relationship. One that will reward you by the more time/care/love that you are willing to put into it.
If I had this forum available to me 25 years ago, I'd be a different person. You have, right now, all the information regarding this arm available to you for your pleasure. All you have to do is take it to heart. |
The difference I noticed comparing compressors is not night & day. It is however noticeable to me and I think a seasoned listener would notice. (This is a testament to how effective my Motorguard filter is) A lot of baby steps... in the end result in a more enjoyable, meaningful listening experience |
Aguser: A couple other thoughts: Is your tonearm wire run in a manner that allows the arm to move freely/no resistance at the lp extremes? Also, everything has to be very level. |
Richardkrebs: I finally introduced the Jun-Air 6-25 into my system. I had it modified to allow the use of an additional air tank. I'm still using my tried and true Motorguard M-30 filter. The only thing that has changed was taking my Timeter PCS 414 (a compressor that runs constantly)out and putting the Jun-Air in. To my surprise there is additional openness/transparency now. This results in greater frequency extension, dynamics and transient response. These compressors run extremely quiet, around 45db, and are known for producing 'clean' air. I'm very happy with the results. |
Hi Aguser - welcome to the thread. 03-30-14: Aguser
This seems to be a good place to ask this. I have an ET-2 on my VPI HW-19 MKIII. I have not had this very long so i am still getting it fine tuned. One thing i noticed was that when it gets near the inner grooves it will start to skip. The tonearm it not against the manifold but I think it is getting more resistance. Any suggestions to fix this? Based on your info you sound like a new ET2 user who has just purchased the used ET2 and VPI combo. I was this exact same person over 10 years with a MKIV table and the same problem. In my case the previous owner did not know what to do so he sold the table. Assuming the wiring exits the arm at the counterweight cap and goes down through the plinth? In addition to what Frogman said I would perform these four steps. I believe your problem will be a combination of them. A very easy fix. 1) Ensure spindle is clean especially on the armtube side as this is the spindle portion in the manifold when at the inner grooves - isopropyl and clean cloth. 2) Platter not level - the back end is higher. The ET2 is climbing a hill. Is the VPI table plinth that the ET2 is on - in the same level plane as the platter itself ? For now Ignore the plinth and level the platter only. Place a line level on the platter portion path the cartridge takes - ensure its level. 3) ET2 not level - get some Blutack. http://www.blutack.com/Make a flat pancake shape size of a silver dollar and place it on the lead weights. Remove or add Blue tack until the arm free floats. Does it stay free floating or does it want to slide to the front ? Position the ET2 at the start, middle and end of the record positions. Ensure the wires are not pulling on it when it is on the outside part of record; and pushing it like antiskate on a pivot arm, when on the inside part of the record. Now adjust the bolts if not level. Its important to not put too much pressure downward on the two bolts as you may crack the casing. When I adjust these bolts I like to back off pressure on both vertical bolts first; and then re adjust pressure. If the platter and ET2 are indeed level, and it still has a problem on inner grooves it is most likely the wires giving push back or the pump is down 1/2 psi if the original one ? This was my problem - the pump was down 1/2 psi. 4) Wires not positioned properly - they are pushing on the arm. They are causing the most push back on the inner groove because this is when they are most likely bent the most. I recommend you bypass those wires but for now re position them so that there is no pushback with the blutack in place when the arm is positioned over the inner grooves. Let us know how you make out. Cheers (Holy Moly this thread is showing on my views page summary again - approaching 325,000 views) |
Make sure that the bearing spindle is perfectly clean; I am sure that you have done that. Then, and the likely problem, make sure that the the bolt securing the bearing spindle to the "joint" is not too tight. This will cause the spindle tube to become deformed and will cause this problem. Lastly, and the most complicated solution, the air capillaries in the manifold may be clogged and need cleaning. Others will chime in with suggestions. |
This seems to be a good place to ask this. I have an ET-2 on my VPI HW-19 MKIII. I have not had this very long so i am still getting it fine tuned. One thing i noticed was that when it gets near the inner grooves it will start to skip. The tonearm it not against the manifold but I think it is getting more resistance. Any suggestions to fix this? |
Slaw
Yes I remember your post now.
Thanks for that.
Will be interesting to read your comments on changes, if any, with the Jun Air.
Looking at these compressors on line, they appear to be very high quality.
Do you or any one else have any opinions on them?
Thanks |
Richardkrebs: I'm using the air regulator I previously posted... the Motronix knock-off, Schrader , model 35501030,
it does expel air, this is to keep any pulsing action to a minimum as the arm sees it. However, with the M-30, this is a non-issue.
My feeling is that when I receive my Jun-Air 6-25 back from repair, although it does cut off after building up pressure in it's tank/s, I'll be pleasantly surprised if there is any at all, sonic benefit, from this arrangement. I say this because I'm SO confident in the M-30 and it's filtering properties!! |
Hi Chris, I would be glad to share some thoughts about that. I am on tour in Asia for a couple of weeks with limited internet access and will post when I have a window of opportunity. Regards. |
Hi Frogman
I came across that article while having my Sunday morning coffee.
I am now having Sat Morning coffee.
Same black coffee made from beans.
Package reads 100 % Columbian Premium Whole Bean Coffee.
Company name is Zavida, Purchased at Costco. I prefer it to Tim Hortons :^)
I listen to digital and LP all the time. I can have an all digital listening session and enjoy it.
I have a lot of music on cd that I do not have on vinyl.
But when I switch to vinyl it stays there. it doesn't go back to digital later on. thats just me.
The only part of the article that stands out to me still is the analogy of hitting sticks - near a person ear and at a distance.
No idea if hitting a stick near a persons ear comes close to a square wave.
That article left a lot to personal interpretation, along with saying some things that electronically I don't think are possible.
I threw it out there because it was a little off the wall and different. Why not ?
What better thread to do this on. A heavily moderated one.
I am not very good at describing what I am hearing and you are very eloquent at this.
You have shown this here, as well as other threads at Audiogon.
Assuming you have a copy of the same recording on both CD and LP.
Assuming this is a recording that you would consider "very average" from an sound engineering perspective.
Not focusing on how the actual performances in the recording are.
Can you tell us what you hear - differences - between the two when you play the CD and LP?
I would be very interested in hearing how you describe this.
It would carry a lot more weight than the article to me.
Cheers.
|
02-01-14: Slaw
Wow, when I post, I post!
If this has been addressed in the past, I apologize... I notice some choose to "hang or mount" their counterweights from the top of the I-beam. I choose to hang mine from the bottom.
In the past, (a long time ago), I A-B'd these settings and preferred the way I do it. From my logical standpoint, I would think hanging the counterweights below the center of gravity, from the spindle's point of view, would be the preferred method. Any takers? Anyone that is an ET2-er for any real length of time; the big question of choice will come to you. Do I do an IN-e or an OUT-e, with the lead weights ? An IN'e requires a ton more weight (figuratively speaking) Fully loaded down version baby. Think teeter totter of childhood days with two friends. One is the same weight as you the other 50 lbs more. The heavier friend needs to sit inside more to balance out things. The same physics applies here, except the friend has a leaf spring on his side. Which friend would you prefer to ride with? This hobby is about free choice, personal choice and enjoyment. If you call Bruce and ask him for an opinion he will say what makes sense as a manufacturer, and as it relates to his business. SOME FACTS An OUT-e requires more thought (a certain combination of weights) to get out to the end. Its the stripped down version. Light on its feet. The ET2 was designed with Adjustable Effective Mass ************************************************************ PAGE 9 The effective mass is adjustable both vertically and horizontally. The arm has low to medium mass vertically. Medium to High mass horizontally. Four counterweights allow the vertical and horizontal mass to be changed. For example: if the user decreases the amount of counterweights used, and moved this position back (higher scale number) the horizontal inertia would go down and the vertical inertia would go up. ************************************************************ PAGE 24 We believe that for a light cartridge. The smallest number of counterweights should be used. This raises the vertial inertia of the arm. (because it is low) and decreases the horizontal inertia (because it is high). bringing the mass of the arm to a more desirable figure. It will always be lower vertically than horizontally which is desirable. ************************************************************ IMO the word "light" should just be deleted as it really applies to "all" cartridges. My personal experiences have been whenever vertical inertia is increased, bass gets better defined and tuneful. |
Chris, you are a brave man opening up the proverbial can of analog vs digital worms. Perhaps the relative insulation of the ET thread will keep a discussion from getting out of control. The comments about square waves are very interesting, but it is not clear to me what, exactly, the author is trying to say. While I can't dispute his assertion that analog is unable to "reproduce" a square wave the way that digital can, I don't see that as a liability and take exception to the implication (as I read it) that analog is "warm" compared to digital as a result of some shortcoming or distortion; that it is less accurate. Additionally, the comment about the reason for this being, in part, the length of a cartridge's coil windings just doesn't hold water because, as you know better than most, the "warmth" of analog is found, even more so, in RR playback. It is true that analog is "warm" compared to digital. However, it is warm the way that real, live music CAN BE warm; it is not a distortion. It can also sound nasty and ugly the way live music sometimes is. Someone please tell me what I am missing here, but the author's comment: "Digital, especially MP3s, reproduce square waves like crazy. That actually upsets people! You’re triggering your fear, which also triggers fatigue. It’s unnatural." does not make sense to me. Does he not mean to say that digital "produces" square waves as they are generated by logic circuits in digital processing?
Now, before the arrows start flying, we all know that both analog and digital can sound very very good. But, to these ears, eventhough some digital playback can OVERALL (and depending on one's priorities) sound better that some analog, there is always a certain quality to analog that IN SOME WAYS, for me, brings it closer to the sound of real than even the best digital; and there is a certain quality to digital that, for me, always says DIGITAL (square waves?). Sorry if that offends anyone, but that is simply the way I hear it. It is not because of any bias, delusion or stubbornness, but simply a result of being around the sound of live instruments for hours practically every day; and my set of priorities in stereo playback.
Slaw, your comments about needing to always go "back to the music" and about "Nightfly" are right on and very apropos, but I am not sure what you mean by saying that some may be afraid of that. In fact, I would like to respectfully (and in the spirit of lively debate) take you to task. When I first mentioned "Nightfly" (quite a while ago) you felt that you couldn't listen to it because of its sound quality. To say that I was surprised would be an understatement due to my feeling that (especially for a digital recording) it was very good sounding and "fun" in a heavily-produced studio recording kind of way; a feeling shared by many. I am glad that solving some "room issues" now allows you to enjoy that recording, and I can only assume that recordings that were previously fine sounding are now simply spectacular. But, I guess that what "going back to the music" means to me is being able to enjoy the music even if the recording quality is less than stellar. I am having some trouble accepting the fact that your room was so problematic that it rendered that particular recording unlistenable. I will concede that the recording is clearly digital sounding, but it is not grating and has less of that typically digital quality that I would best describe this way: remember the old "Star Trek" TV show, and how when the crew would be teleported ("beam me up Scotty"), the image of the person being teleported would appear to be separated into molecule size dots before disappearing or reappearing. That's how digital images often times sound to me, there is a lack of completeness to the image density that analog seems to have even when there are deficiencies in other areas. There is also a completeness of rhythmic density (?) that gives music the warmth of human rhythmic expression and interplay that seems to be a challenge for a lot of digital recordings.
Thanks for the update on "Nightlfy", glad you are enjoying it and try to find Wayne Shorter's "Atlantis" for a wonderful analog recording in a contemporary jazz fusion (hate using that term but....) bag from one of the greatest player/composers of all time. Sealed copies are not difficult to find. |
For those who desire the best and the perfect match for the ET2, there is a rare opportunity to purchase a Kondo Ginga TT for sale here on audiogon. The Kondo Ginga is a derivative of my Final Audio Parthenon which is now unobtainable. In addition the Final Audio Parthenon has adjustable torque control of the motor and the SPZ base. I would expect however that the Kondo Ginga would be very close to the Final Audio Parthenon in offering unparallelled performance and resolution. Having used the ET2 for a number of years with my Final Audio Parthenon, this combination is unsurpassed. http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-turntable-ginga-kondo-ginga-2014-02-05-analog-italy-irwin-ohDisclaimer : I have no relationship with the vendor who is unknown to me. |
Dover.
Sigh.... You need to read my posts properly. This is taking us nowhere.
Slaw.
I checked out the M-30 and M-60 filter. That is most impressive... 0.1 micron.
What regulator are you using? Testing with a small amount of air bleed in between my two filter regulators yielded strongly positive results. I suspect that this is due to some tiny instability in the regulators themselves.
I may experiment with a second bleed in between the last regulator and the arm. The arm should be a constant load, so bleed there should not result in varying pressure across the arms travel. |
Richardkrebs,
You are wrong. You continue to put up an argument for adding lots of mass to the ET2 and removing the patented decoupling methodology of the counterweight. Your argument is based on a strawman hypothesis that only focuses of frequencies below FR. Bruce Thigpens exhaustive testing does not support your view. You continue to ignore what is happening above FR when the decoupling reduces the horizontal mass, and your horizontal effective mass is 300% higher than a standard ET2 ABOVE FR.
You claim that 300% higher horizontal mass above FR ( ABOVE FR ) and removing the decoupling is of no consequence. Bruce Thigpens testing that he has documented on his website clearly shows that you are wrong and the problems of increased resonance when the counterweight decoupling is removed are documented.
Your claim that high horizontal mass has no consequence suggests that Shure, Ortofon, David Fletcher ( of Sumiko ), Alisdair Aitken ( SME ), Bruce Thigpen and virtually every tonearm and cartridge manufacturer has got it wrong. Record grooves are cut at 45 degrees, both vertical and horizontal mass matter. You cannot increase horizontal mass ( ABOVE FR ) by 300% and expect no change.
In this thread Dgarretson has reduced the horizontal effective mass of his Terminator and yielded significant improvements in speed and resolution. Frogman has further decoupled his counterweight and yielded significant improvements in speed and resolution, more bass notes he says. I have tested fixed and decoupled counterweights some 30 years ago when the ET2 replaced the ET1, and yielded significant improvements with the decoupled counterweight even with very low compliance cartridges.
Bruce Thigpen has documented the problems of high horizontal mass as have Shure with their white papers on tracking.
None of your claims that a rigid counterweight and increased mass are supported by proper documented testing. Your argument is entirely based on theory, and it is flawed. Your maths that you quote continues to ignore the fact that the decoupled counterweight splits the fundamental resonant peak into 2 smaller peaks ( as demonstrated in the Stereophile review and Bruce Thigpens testing ) that has benefits of lowering distortion in the audible spectrum ( ABOVE FR ). You have used mathematical arguments that are not fully representative of the cartridge/arm resonant and tracking behaviour and are taken out of context.
I would suggest that you should buy a Kuzma arm which has been designed from the outset with a high Horizontal mass and has a fixed counterweight if you wish to throw away the advantages of the ET2 with its design goals of maintaining as low a mass as possible and minimising resonant peaks in the ultra low bass & minimising tracking distortion through the employment of the patented decoupled counterweight system.
|
Dover.
I quote directly from your post of 03-13-13
*********On an eccentric record the acceleration will be the same for each arm –
0.0024metres / (1.8 sec x 1.8sec) = 0.00074 metres per second squared
The horizontal effective masses of the 3 arms mentioned in this thread are:
Kuzma has been quoted as 100g
Terminator 80g
ET2 25g
The force on the cantilever is as follows:
Kuzma = 0.1kg x 0.00074m/s2 = 0.000074 Newtons
Terminator = 0.08kg x 0.00074 m/s2 = 0.000059 Newtons
ET2 = 0.025kg x 0.00074 m/s2 = 0.000018 Newtons
Summarising then you can see that the increased mass of the Terminator and Kuzma arms increase the lateral forces on the cantilever by 300-400% over the ET2.
Now Krebs has modified his ET2 by adding 30gm of lead to the spindle. This adds 30g to the effective mass of the "ET2. Krebs also couples the counterweight ( no spring ) which adds another 30g to the horizontal effective mass.
So Krebs has increased the horizontal mass of the original ET2 from 0.025kg to 0.085kg.
The Krebs modifications have increased the lateral forces on the cantilever by over 300%**********
Dover
You stated in this post that the ET2's effective mass as seen by the cartridge WHEN TRACING AN ECCENTRIC RECORD was 25 gms.
This is not true. The effective mass of an ET2 below FR is the total mass of the arm including the weight of the counterweight. Depending upon cartridge and wand used this will be in the order of 75 to 95 gm. I say again, the leaf spring does not flex due to the action of tracing an eccentric record, so it does not lower the effective mass at these frequencies. The lateral forces imposed on my cartridge due to tracing an eccentric record are much the same as those imposed on a cartridge mounted in a standard ET2, Terminator and Kuzma. If the cantilever is flexing when tracing an eccentric record in my set up it is by definition flexing with a standard ET2 as well.
I am sure that others are finding this line of discussion tedious and for that I apologise.
Slaw.
Thanks for the info. I will take a look at M-30 M-60. Does this have an air bleed as well? I am already using a combination 3 micron filter and water trap. |
fwiw - I found the analogy of hitting the two sticks closeup to your ear and at a distance very interesting. Never heard it explained this way before. |
Sharing part of an interesting article I am came across today on vinyl.
(Reproduced in part from the entertainment section of today's Toronto Star Newspaper)
-------------------------------------------------------
Interviewer - But what, exactly, are we talking about when we say that vinyl sounds warm?
“The bottom line? As humans listening, we do not like square waves,” says renowned producer/mastering engineer Peter J. Moore, known for his legendary one-microphone recording of the Cowboy Junkies’ Trinity Sessions.
OK, so in layman’s terms, what is a square wave?
“It’s when you go from absolutely quiet to super loud with no time at all,” says Moore, who has also worked with everyone from Holly Cole to Neil Young.
Sensing, shall we say, a lack of comprehension on the other end of the line, Moore gamely tries to illustrate his point without the benefit of diagrams or hand gestures. (Any perceived ambiguity in his explanation is our fault, not his.)
“If I slap two pieces of wood right beside your ear, that’s about the only time in the real world that you would feel a square wave,” he says.
“That would make you jump out of your skin.
“Digital, especially MP3s, reproduce square waves like crazy. That actually upsets people! You’re triggering your fear, which also triggers fatigue. It’s unnatural.
“Now, if I was across the room and slapped two sticks together, it would take time for that wave to travel to you and by then the square wave has rounded off.”
And what does that have to do with vinyl?
“A turntable playing a vinyl record could not reproduce a square wave if it tried.”
Why can’t it?
“If I have a wire that’s one-inch long, it takes no time for sound to travel over that wire. But in the coil in a turntable cartridge, that wire is very long and it’s wrapped around a magnet. So it takes a lot of time to get through that magnet and come out the other side. By the time it comes out, the sharpness, the ugliness has been rounded.
“That,” says Moore, “is what people mean by warm.”
(Reproduced in part from the entertainment section of today's Toronto Star Newspaper) |
Well, it's 2:20 EST and no response.
My last post. I feel if we aren't referencing a specific lp, how in the heck can we continue to go on as if there is something else as our reference?
We can go on and on about this and that but in the end we come back to the music. I'm feeling that this is what some may be afraid of? |
Wow, when I post, I post!
If this has been addressed in the past, I apologize... I notice some choose to "hang or mount" their counterweights from the top of the I-beam. I choose to hang mine from the bottom.
In the past, (a long time ago), I A-B'd these settings and preferred the way I do it. From my logical standpoint, I would think hanging the counterweights below the center of gravity, from the spindle's point of view, would be the preferred method. Any takers? |
