Chris.
The config was not quite as you wrote.
In both iterations I used two regulators. The one in the compressor and a separate stand alone Norgren model.
Basically I slid the second regulator along a 43 foot length of clear soft PVC tube to position it either within 3 feet of the arm or 40 ft of the arm. This to test my theory that regulators themselves introduce tiny pressure perturbations which can be smoothed by the long run of flexible tube.
So, yes I believe that I have introduced a more consistent air delivery to the manifold. The key though for owners that have in-room regs close to the arm, is that the regs may be doing harm to the sound.
Note I made no change to the air supply circuit, just its configuration.
The pressure gauge is right next to the arm and I adjusted the second regulator pressure output such that the arm received the same pressure for the two configurations. So a spindle resonating problem would have shown up in both configurations. Further I know what excessive pressure sounds like and this was not what occurred last night.
The arm has a high pressure manifold. What actual design pressure? Don't know, but 17 to 18 psi with an oil trough works best.
Yes I tried different records and VTA settings. I did not remove the oil trough.
Findings were consistent across all the tests.
This would be very easy for you to try.
Just significantly increase the length of clear 1/4" PVC tube from the outlet of your in-room regulator to the arm. You will need to slightly (very slightly) increase the reg pressure to ensure that the arm sees the same input pressure due to a small line loss in the longer tube.
Now I know that this is not quite the same test as I did since you will be adding extra tubing but it will, I'm sure be informative.
Yep, I am well aware of the "better equals worse" scenario. Have gone down that dark alley many times.
Pretty sure that this is not one of those.
Their was no ambiguity at all with my findings in my rig.
Also just adding another finding from some years back.
The air stream needs to be earthed close to the arm. In my case, I earth the body of the pressure gauge which has a metal sensor that touches the air flow. Static build up?
cheers. |
Richard
what a great and crazy hobby this is. We are running two very different air pump /tubing systems. Also our tonearms although they share some parts are more different in their construction and their setup requirements. We are using very different turntables, the amps, pre? and the most important thing - our rooms are different.
I'd say so far we are on par for the course like any other two audio guys/gals in this hobby ?
oh yeah.....and we are discussing the effects of changing out a length of air hose in the middle of all this stuff. Wonderful hobby.
There is one thing that stands out from your posts like a square peg in a round role to me. I run the same PSI with and without the damping trough, as designed by Bruce.
Its effects are real but subtle. Why are you not able to run the same psi without the trough ? I think you said the differences with and without are as high as 5 psi. Now understand I am not losing sleep over this - my kids give me enough reason for sleepless nights. something just doesn't jive. But as your arm is a customized, unique one, I don't really feel a need to understand why - was just curious.
That plus you don't just live down the street from me; if you know what I mean.
As long as you are happy....cool.
I have had my happy music lover's hat on for over 6 months.
If I choose to put on the audiophile hat one day again with vinyl, I can try tweaking with the air tubes as discussed.
The difference between MY two hats is that my music lover hat fits really well.
My audiophile hat for some strange reason has become a 1/2 size to small for me.
Happy Listening. |
Chris.
"great crazy hobby this is. We are running two very different......"
Yes but isn't diversity the spice of life!
My pre is my own, all tube design, well actually my own unique combination of known gain blocks with some interesting P/S features. It exists in a family of one, world wide.
I wish I did live just down the street. I suspect that it would be a lot of fun.
Yes, I freely admit that the pressure disparity with and without the trough is interesting. Maybe I will revisit this, but the oil trough change was big in my rig even at 12 psi each way, it just got better, with the trough, as I pushed it up to 18.
If your kids are like mine, they will continue to give you sleepless nights for many years to come....sorry about that! |
Richard, et al. fyi - Bruce' opinion on PSI changes versus Quality Air Supply. I didn't want to interrupt Bruce' Elephant hearing study so I kept my question short. Bruce
If a friend made a significant change to the air delivery system on his ET2 and this caused audible changes like soundstage and other audiophile type attributes, attack, decay, to change .... do you have an opinion re: PSI changes versus the Air Supply itself. More than air pressure, the air supply will change the sound of the tonearm if it is bad, allowing pressure pulsations to enter the manifold. Increasing pressure slightly and a big enough surge tank are the best things that could be added to the tonearm in terms of performance. Not knowing anything about the pump changes, I don't have much to offer. Thank you and I apologize for the delay in getting back to you.
brucet key words to me "increasing pressure slightly" and "big enough surge tank" This applies to unmodified ET2.0 and ET 2.5 |
Richard - An observation. I spent the weekend on the water boating and sometimes in the water - this was by accident as the temp is still only in the 70's. What was very obvious is that even with similar size boats but with different size/horsepower motors; the ones that had their prop set up properly....were able to skim the water, go on plane and performed far better than those similar boats with motors too large / long that had props that slugged lower through the water.
Where am I going with this ? Lets play crazy scientist again and assume that the prop in the water is like the tonearm's paddle in the oil.
I was puzzled with the big performance differences between your oil and non oil damped settings. Could your paddle be in the oil more; and the oil is acting as a cushion for your modded spindle as it goes back and forth with the lp? Just a thought. I am using just 1 cc of oil and the paddle is barely skimming the oil. fwiw - the oil in the trough also acts as a great visual level as well.
Are you a skimmer or a slugger ?
:^) fun hobby. Happy listening. |
Chris.
Having owned power boats pretty much my whole adult life, I am very familiar with the effect you sight. There is a "golden" set of adjustments, propeller angle, trim tab setting, RPM, weight distribution, where once optimised, the boat becomes quiet, travels faster, the ride is smoother and it burns less fuel.
It is I believe a good analogy for a tone arm set up. There are many individual adjustments that combined correctly can result in "golden" performance.
It is probably difficult to compare oil trough settings. I am using a different oil and different paddle at the other end of the spindle. Further I have a fixed CW which means that the physics of the arm are quite different. The undamped resonant peak is higher on my arm, so it would need more damping to bring it under control.
mlswgdtftwg |
It is probably difficult to compare oil trough settings. I am using a different oil and different paddle at the other end of the spindle. Further I have a fixed CW which means that the physics of the arm are quite different. All good points Richard. Again too many variables. In conversation with Bruce last year I remember him saying the position of the trough was decided out of convenience. I think it can be reversed. I say this because my spare stock gooseneck has a hole marked in the bottom - for the paddle?.... Has anyone tried this ? |
Hi Richard, there is continued interest in the Aluminum ET2 GooseneckReceived two recent emails, the latest this week from an Audiogon member on this ET2 thread asking about the possibility of doing a limited run on them. I will pm you with more details. Posting here to let those that expressed previous interest in the Gooseneck aware. I will post any updated info here. Cheers Chris |
Chris.
Back in the day, nearly 20 years ago, I took a piece of aluminium to a machine shop along with the original plastic goose neck, set at the mid position and said to the machinist "copy this please". I did ask him to make the part that slid into the wand one thou bigger in dia as I felt that it was not a good fit in the wand I was using. There was no drawing produced. Now days to get a part machined in my shop I need a CAD drawing at $150/hour to produce. A CAM program at $150/ hour to produce. Machining itself at $450/hour, plus material which actually is the smallest cost of the lot. If we were making 100's it would be viable, but a small number would be very costly. The best option is to find a local machine shop that has lathes and milling machines and take an original goose neck along "please copy this" I used the same aluminium as the wand, 6061 T6, from memory. This info is somewhere in the manual.
Sorry I cannot be more helpful but, I would recommend that anyone interested goes through the effort. There is really a big jump up in performance when the quite flexible original is replaced. |
Now days to get a part machined in my shop I need a CAD drawing at $150/hour to produce. A CAM program at $150/ hour to produce. Machining itself at $450/hour, plus material which actually is the smallest cost of the lot. Very Interesting numbers Richard, thanks for sharing. The numbers reminded me of my former job. If I can digress for a bit and share something - for a different perspective. The company I used to work for charged me out to clients as a project manager at a straight $225 US an hour. A senior consultant was $180 and a consultant $125. A typical work project budget would be based on a respective 10, 20, 70 percentage workload split with myself managing 10 or more projects. (And my wife still wonders why I don't want to go back to work). For this you got electronic and paper plans that you hoped you would never have to use. Mostly theory based but did include one practice run through at the end. Imagine that. Hard to believe for me now. Nothing really tangible. The employee skills gained during the project to use the plans eroded with with company turnover. Anyway. Some observations aluminum versus stock gooseneck. The aluminum gooseneck combined with the heaviest mag armwand has taken the resonances for my modded 2.5 tonearm into MC only territory now (based on my ears) which is ok with me. I have a couple of MC cartridges I really like. Whether this is more the mag wand influence over the aluminum gooseneck I can't say. They came to me at roughly the same time period. I do sense it is more the mag wands influence, as it was designed for low compliance MC cartridges by Bruce so things do kind of add up to what I am hearing. As you are an MC user Richard I highly recommend acquiring a mag wand if one becomes available to try out. In contrast - our cracker jack box cartridge MM 420str discussed here sounds quite strident now on the 2.5 with the 420's higher compliance. But the 420 sounded great before on the 2.5 with Carbon Fibre armwand and stock gooseneck; and it still does sound great on my second ET2 with stock gooseneck and aluminum armwand. So what this tells me when looking at improvements and upgrades with vinyl, is there are no absolutes, generalizations can't be made, and whether something is an improvement will depend on each person's individual situation as our audio kit setup and preferences and goals are all different. One more observation. The aluminum gooseneck is as you say set at the midpoint level of adjustment. From a stylus adjustment point of view, if someone likes playing with a lot of cartridges, we can partially blame the MM thread for some of this behavior ?, you could very likely have someone who has a few cartridges hooked up to 2 or 3 armwands ready to interchange; the three armwand stylus level settings on the stock gooseneck comes in very very handy, with the different size/length cartridge bodies and styluses. The three adjustments allow the midpoint inscribed line on the manifold to stay constant and level with the record surface for wow and flutter control. I don't have problems with multiple cartridges (I have problems in other areas) so setting up one cartridge for an extended length of time and dialing it in with the aluminum gooseneck works really well with me and l really like it. Feel lucky to have it and wanted to spread the joy if possible. If someone reading this can help us out please chime in. The person I referred to earlier has a friend machinist, so the actual machinist cost (highest numnber) could be contained. But he needs the CAD drawing. Just a note as well that the stock ET2 gooseneck is made up of two parts. Aluminum on the armwand side and carbon fibre on the air bearing spindle side. Cheers |
Has anyone ever tried making titanium or magnesium goosenecks? |
Ketchup,
I have played with titanium components on the ET2 some years ago. I overhauled a company that manufactured custom wheelchairs, including custom titanium frames, with custom brackets to meet individuals needs. Unfortunately titanium is very brittle to machine, it shatters very easily and I think you will find it difficult. As an aside titanium tube is not rigid, you can actually bend it by hand, but it does have fantastic damping qualities. I have a titanium arm tube sitting around somewhere, but have not used it.
With regard to the aluminium one piece gooseneck, mine is the same as Krebs, and I use it in an ET2 & aluminium arm tube with both MC ( Carnegie, Koetsu, Denon 103 ) & MM ( Shure V15Vxmr with brush removed ). I have never had stridency from my ET2.
Bear in mind my ET2 aluminium arm tube has had the foam & shrink wrap removed, the teflon insert in the headshell removed and replaced with carbon fibre. I also run a loose decoupled counterweight ( tuned with teflon bushes ) that is much lossier than the standard spring for both MM & MC. Frogman has trialled this and attained the same benefits of quicker and more transparent bottom end ( literally more notes in his system ).
So my suggestion to Chris if he wants to run an MM in the ET2.5 with the aluminium gooseneck would be to try loosening off the counterweight nut and lower the overall horizontal mass ( above FR ). If you back the nut off and then dial it in slowly whilst listening to the changes you can tune the counterweight motion quite precisely, even more so if you put a tiny wedge either side of the spring to control the motion ( I used teflon ). |
Chris / Ketchup
Yes the numbers scare me, but they are necessary to cover even more frightening expense numbers. The beast, which is our business, roars out every minute of every day saying "feed me!"
Absolutely, a mag wand is on the wish list for use with my MC cart.
A mag or titanium goose neck, now that is an interesting idea. |
Dover.
Very interested in seeing a photo of the Aluminium goose neck and the titanium wand if you can find it.
I'm sure others would like to see these photos, of the goose neck at least, posted here as well. |
Dover,
I would also love to see some pictures.
Why did you remove the foam from the aluminum arm tube, and could you detect a difference?
I just got my vinyl rig up and running but the tweaker in me is already thinking about the next move. I'm currently using an ET-2 with the aluminum arm tube and a Denon DL-103R. I think the Denon would work better with the higher mass magnesium arm wand, which I have on an unused ET-2.5. Does anyone have any experience with the Denon DL-103 on both the aluminum and magnesium arm wands?
It's too bad the forum is so archaic. This might have been covered in this thread already, but it's virtually impossible to search it. |
Dear ET friends,
I've just bought a used ET 2 arm with an old Goldmund Studio (which I'm restoring to look like new, it was damaged badly)
I've bought a 50litre compressor to run the arm, but this is all brand new to me, any other advice would be most welcome.
Biggest question is what cartridge would work on the ET2 with Goldmund, I use a homebuilt Nuvista valve headamp, based on Conrad Johnson, Counterpoint SP 7 valve preamp, 250watt Mossfet power amps driving stacked double Dahlquist.
I've had great success & many years of pleasure from Goldmund Studietto with VdHul MC 10, so I'm tempted by the Colibri XPM or similar as there are special deals on offer, but I've read many conflicting reports & warnings against Colibri on a linear tracking arm.
Its the best sounding modern cartridge I've heard, but very high risk, I can only afford one cartridge which should last for many years, so really can't make a mistake on this. My old MC 10 has been retipped once, still sounds stunning after 27 years... thats what I'm hoping for on ET 2.
Does anyone have experience with Colibri on ET 2 arm please?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. |
Dear ET friends,
I've just bought a used ET 2 arm with an old Goldmund Studio (which I'm restoring to look like new, it was damaged badly)
I've bought a 50litre compressor to run the arm, but this is all brand new to me, any other advice would be most welcome.
Biggest question is what cartridge would work on the ET2 with Goldmund, I use a homebuilt Nuvista valve headamp, based on Conrad Johnson, Counterpoint SP 7 valve preamp, 250watt Mossfet power amps driving stacked double Dahlquist.
I've had great success & many years of pleasure from Goldmund Studietto with VdHul MC 10, so I'm tempted by the Colibri XPM or similar as there are special deals on offer, but I've read many conflicting reports & warnings against Colibri on a linear tracking arm.
Its the best sounding modern cartridge I've heard, but very high risk, I can only afford one cartridge which should last for many years, so really can't make a mistake on this. My old MC 10 has been retipped once, still sounds stunning after 27 years... thats what I'm hoping for on ET 2.
Does anyone have experience with Colibri on ET 2 arm please?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. |
Hi Leon-Krige - welcome to the thread. I've just bought a used ET 2 arm with an old Goldmund Studio (which I'm restoring to look like new, it was damaged badly) Was the ET2 tonearm damaged as well ? I've bought a 50 litre compressor to run the arm, but this is all brand new to me, any other advice would be most welcome. The base ET2 needs just 3 psi to work. Did the package you bought come with the standard pump to work with first just to get up and running? VdHul MC10I've had great success & many years of pleasure from Goldmund Studietto with VdHul MC 10, so I'm tempted by the Colibri XPM or similar as there are special deals on offer, but I've read many conflicting reports & warnings against Colibri on a linear tracking arm.
Its the best sounding modern cartridge I've heard, but very high risk, I can only afford one cartridge which should last for many years, so really can't make a mistake on this. My old MC 10 has been retipped once, still sounds stunning after 27 years... thats what I'm hoping for on ET 2. The VdHul MC 10 looks identical to my Benz Micro MC3 that I have used for many years in the ET2, ET 2.5. The ET tonearm is unique in design, and setup requirements and this includes other linear trackers. It has a patented VTA system. There will be a learning curve with it. For this reason initially I would use a cartridge that mistakes can be made on. Everybody needs to walk first with an ET2 before you can run. There are no exceptions to this. Once running however you don't look back. This has been my personal experience and those I know that use the ET 2.0 or ET 2.5. Regarding conflicting reports & warnings against a Colibri on a linear tracking arm - you hear alot of 'stuff" on the internet. I am interested in seeing some of these reports. We can help you debug them. Get the facts and weed out the myths and audiophile heresay. Feel free to share links or any information. At the high level view my opinion is unless the author provides specifics I always ignore these reports. I feel with most people who are genuine with no agenda; if they have had a good or bad personal experience, they are willing to share details with others and try to help them. ColibriTechnical Data: Stylus Shape: VDH - IS Stylus Radii: 2 x 85 Micron Frequency Range: 5 - 65.000 Hz Tracking Force: 13.5 - 15 mN Static Compliance: 35 Micron/mN Tracking Ability at 15mN at 315Hz: 70 Micron Channel Unbalance: < 0.5 dB Channel Separation at 1kHz / 10kHz: > 35 / > 30 dB Equivalent Stylus Tip Mass: 0.24 Milligram Vertical Tracking Angle : 22 Degrees fwiw - I have used a sonus blue gold cartridge loaded at .3 vtf with the ET2. It has a compliance rating of 50 with no issues. I also use an XV1 at 10 x 10-6 cm/dyn. Please skim through the ET2 manual. Key parts of the manual to me. Page 28 - for proper counterweight setup Page 39 - cleaning the air bearing (especially if bought used) Page 46 and onward - Advanced tonearm/vinyl info. Antiskating and Frequency Modulation Distortion A must read for anyone serious about their vinyl setup. Hoepfully this info is helpful to start. Cheers Chris |
Just to add imo the Achilles heel for the ET2 is documented quite clearly in the manual on page 47 by Bruce. "If you like to play severely eccentric records, ones with run out greater than 1/8th of an inch, then we suggest you use a low mass pivoted arm.” My experiences is the ET2 is not limited by the cartridge, but the record itself, and the wiring positioning. I can't imagine anyone at this level of vinyl play using eccentric records with expensive cartridges ? |
Hello Chris,
Thanks a mill for your reply, I started feeling like a dumb blonde novice, (ok lets face it at this stage I am...)
Still setting up the space with the compressor etc, the Studio should be fine now, broken wires repaired, checked speed etc, all good to go, I've lasercut some plexiglass sheets to hide the glue & holes which the previous owner left.
Visibly the ET arm looks fine, hope its mechanically sound, I just always wanted a Studio as extension of the baby Goldmund which has given me 30 years of joy, but I've heard incredible reports about the ET arm, so I will learn slowly. There was no pump, likewise no powersupply with the STudio, I'm using the home built PS from my Studietto which is good.
Hence the compressor which will be linked from a stairwell below, I figured it would work to use the 50l tank as the air supply, not really to run it while playing, if this is a bad idea please let me know, I haven't opened the compressor box yet, just heard its a good alternative?
PS: Not fixed on the Colibri, but it sounded incredible on a friends Dynavector tonearm, despite his warnings that the cantilever angle is not aligned with the cartridge, is difficult to set up, & apparently it swerves very far out on its path playing on linear tracking arms. (from Vusi Khumalo who has posted some well informed threads on this forum)
I can only afford one good cartridge, no mistakes, hence the questions asked, some heavily discounted Colibris were on offer on this site, that's where I picked up the idea. But I've heard controversial feedback whether they are first grade cartridges, hence the concern, I just can't afford a mistake, single dad, university teacher, not a stockbroker!
For the moment I will mount my old MC 10 & learn from it.
Thanks again for the encouragement & advice, it helps a ton to know there are well informed users out there, this is definitely not a walk in the vinyl park... |
Hi Leon_Krige (LK) sorry for the long post. PS: Not fixed on the Colibri, but it sounded incredible on a friends Dynavector tonearm, despite his warnings that the cantilever angle is not aligned with the cartridge, is difficult to set up, & apparently it swerves very far out on its path playing on linear tracking arms. (from Vusi Khumalo who has posted some well informed threads on this forum) thanks for that info. very interesting. Sounds like an intoxicated cartridge that can't walk the fine straight line needed for a linear tracker - a line that can be anywhere on an LP. Improper setup on a linear arm results in a walk that may start ok at the outside grooves but is off at the end. Or its off at the start and ends up on the line on the inner grooves. This is all due to incorrect setup - user error. This is why it is important to do 3 measurements - at the outer grooves, middle and inner grooves. But I've never heard of one when setup properly "swerves very far out on its path" A cartridge like this if it were "really true" would be of little use to me regardless of its discount; or maybe its just me and the result of having too many beers with the bears this summer. I am just not getting this swerve out part. Never heard of a cartridge exhibiting this kind of behavior. Its true there is no place to hide with a linear tracker. If its out you will know. This is not the case with a pivot arm where from most people I have talked to, only a small percentage can actually hear the two spots on records that their cartridge is actually in the sweetspot; the other times not. I remember this was audible with my dynavector arm in my main room and I believe I discussed this on my virtual page blog. So if someone can't hear it thats good. Of my more recent pivot arms in my rooms I found the Dynavector the most neutral (compared to MTC's) with the JMW12 and FR64s both producing bass bumps (assuming a LF resonance). I also recall in my room 2 requiring two different sub settings with the Quad 57 on full range material. One for the FR64s and one for the DV505. Here is the culpritAnd here is a Colibri threadInteresting comments from that thread... and yes, on some pressings wonderful, others it was not happy and edgy. Some have cantilevers that are not parallel to the body, and they dont have the same height and VTA. The question I have is were the pressing that sounded wonderful and others not happy and edgy cut at the same plant, same way ? Some info for consideration. Page. 56 ET2 manual. Conclusions 1) Not all cartridges will be improved by using them at some angle other than the intended design angle. (The top of the cartridge parallel to the surface of a record) 2) The European record vertical cutting angle standard closely matches the vertical angles present in phono cartridges today. There is a need for a universal record cutting standard which closely matches this. 3) If the measuring vertical tracking angle of a cartridge is high (greater than 22 degrees) its vertical performance will probably be improved by tilting it back (2 or 3 degrees) (front goes up) to match present vertical angles on records. 4)If the measured vertical tracking angle of a cartridge is 18 to 20 degrees. It will probably perform best when its top is mounted parallel to the surface of the record. 5)Some cartridges are very sensitive to small changes in VTA, others are not. Page 51 - discusses how most records are cut between 16 and 20 degrees. Seems the Colibri from its specs at 22 degrees falls into points 3 and 5 ? When records are cut differently we can hear this on resolving systems. And we have discussed this here a number of times. When VTA adjustments are made we know its a good thing to have a tonearm that will not any change parameters like VTF and keep things intact. When two audio friends change the VTA on their Kuzma Airline - the VTF changes. this was confirmed. Its physics. Now lets ask ourselves - what is going to happen when you play with the VTA on a cartridge like the Colibri that is revealing, needs fantastic alignment to start of with; and it needs to keep it there. You need a tonearm that changes no parameters. imo - there is a reason the VTA on the ET2 is patented. Bruce happens to be a good business person. fwiw - from an alignment (NOT COST) point of view this applies imo to our cracker jack cartridge 420 str as well. Have a look at its stylus next to its brother and sisterThe one on the right - is the top sibling- very revealing - can be a real PITA, if not set up properly or your tonearm, or your tonearm changes parameters when you adjust VTA. It is affected by point 5 imo. Try this experiment. Get a long permanent marker. two pieces of different height wood and a piece of paper. Place paper on table, the lower of the two wood pieces on the paper. make a line where it rests on the inside. Hold the marker loosely in your hand between the thumb and index finger and rest it on the lowest of the pieces of wood. Bring the marker down slowly so it makes a spot on the paper. With the outline of the previous wood clearly visible, put the higher wood piece down. Repeat the exercise and place the marker down again. The marker makes a spot in a different location. It will be closer to your hand and the marker is at different angle as well. If you could weigh the weight of the marker on the paper, it would be lighter with the higher elevated piece of wood. How do I know this? Because I tried I tried this test with every pivot arm I have ever owned. You can't defeat physics. I find it interesting that the only thing I currently own that was made by VanDenHul is the stock factory silver wiring inside my main speakers. I may also have an old ET2 wire loom with his wire. I just can't afford a mistake, single dad, university teacher, not a stockbroker! :^) LK My job has taken me to many different fields of work and I have had to interview the folks who make those industries, companies, organizations tick and can't be without if something happened. Stockbrokers were the least generous with their time and very selfish overall about what they do. Like trying to get blood from a stone. Teachers were always very forthcoming with info and also showed a real need to want to give us the best info to help the students. I am curious to know how well the previous owner mounted the ET2 on your table (especially if you are going to consider mounting a Colibri). Do you get good alignment on the line for the outside, middle and inside grooves. Also how well is the VTA worm gear working. It should be smooth and remain level when raising and lowering. The lever firmness can be adjusted. You strike me as the type that is going to have a lot of fun learning with the ET2. This means I am probably going to be learning from you too. So I look really look forward to your progress. Pls keep us updated. I am off to go meet up with some bear friends. Richard if you see this I have decided to wear the bell this year when I run. Cheers |
Dover.
Ketchup, me and probably others are still waiting for some pics of the aluminium goose neck and hopefully the titanium wand from you.
Look forward to this. |
Dover
Having a titanium arm tube sitting around somewhere unused, you must be highly satisfied with the one piece gooseneck a la Krebs, and aluminium armtube.
What difference did you hear when you went to a one piece gooseneck a la Krebs?
Give me a convenient time and I'll come round and photograph the titanium wand: many will be interested (you could also let me know how much you want for it). |
Dear Leon, Firstly just get rid of the flimsy & unstable suspension of that Studio (it´s floating not hanging) and you´ll be facing hugely improved performance level of that great DD TT. You can also tame the springs but it would be better to take them away altogether. Your Goldmund deserves this tweak.
Best regards |
you could also let me know how much you want for it may I suggest a public auction for the titanium armwand...as this thread is now over 420k views I think there may be interest in the titanium piece? The bidding method should fetch I believe the best price for Dover if he is interested in selling. If I may start bidding at 100 Canadian loonies....(without pictures). I blame this ridiculous starting bid on the relentless pounding my ears have been taking from the crazy bird - the Loon, croaking of bullfrogs, wolves howling, hooting of owls, and the splash of jumping sm bass .. on the end of my line. must be delirious. Look forward to seeing the pics... Received two more emails from folks interested in the aluminum gooseneck and one of them wants two of them. Surely there must be a CAD person reading here that can help us out. Firstly just get rid of the flimsy & unstable suspension of that Studio (it´s floating not hanging) and you´ll be facing hugely improved performance level of that great DD TT. You can also tame the springs but it would be better to take them away altogether. Your Goldmund deserves this tweak. HNTB This hobby being what it is - I would be curious if you polled 10 Goldmund owners who felt they had dialed this table in, how the split would be - springs and without ? Cheers |
Dear Ct 0157 (Feel like I'm in Star Wars here...)
& Dear Harold...
Thanks a mill for all the feedback, I'm digesting it all as I'm setting up the TT & ET, had some help getting started from an ET owner as some parts were missing or imperfect, a huge help thanks Gerald!
Have to do a few more mods to the Studio platform, possibly a hole for the air hose to allow free movement for the arm without causing bending stress etc.
I've had some Cardas interconnects made up, will probably hardwire the V D Hul cable from the ET to avoid contacts, with sufficient play, using an old MM magnet just to get started, so many things to learn here!
I can see where your critical comment re Studio springs come from, but surely they are intended to decouple the arm from vibrations? What would you use instead please, I'm definitely interested as I can see how much they move with the arm sliding...
Many Thanks, hope to get music out of there soon which is ultimately the objective!
Best LK |
Dear Leon & Chris, I´m a man of peace & tranquility, that´s why I prefer solid TTs ;-)
To be honest (and to my own embarrassment), I wasted nearly half my life on suspended decks. Well tuned suspension works on all environments but it is always a compromise on sound nevertheless, unfortunately.
I would suggest large spiked brass columns attached under the upper plinth and you will have dead suspension.
Ugh, I have spoken. |
**** If I may start bidding at 100 Canadian loonies....(without pictures). I blame this ridiculous starting bid on the relentless pounding my ears have been taking from the crazy bird - the Loon, croaking of bullfrogs, wolves howling, hooting of owls, and the splash of jumping sm bass .. on the end of my line. must be delirious. ****
Sounds like great music to me! I'd like to increase the bidding to 150 Brooklyn squirrels.....wait!....am I mistaken? Is it Down Under where Dover resides; or is it the Deep South, where squirrels are a delicacy? :-)
+1 on removing springs; certainly trying it. Never owned the Goldmund, but have done so with three VPI's with great results. |
I'd like to increase the bidding to 150 Brooklyn squirrels..... Frogman - I'm confused by your bid. I offered - 100 Canadian Loonies. real moneyYou offered 150 Brooklyn squirrels ? Now I have to confess growing up as a kid I was influenced by the American tv show Rocky and Bullwinkle. "Rocky" being a flying squirrel. So I would have issue with this squirrel delicacy you speak of.... even though I do seem to get a real kick out of of Duck Dynasty. |
Hi LK Regarding the air hose. I had Bruce set the air hose nozzle pointing up on my 2.5. So no hole needed to be drilled. If the nozzle is pointing down it can also be turned up and re epoxied but you need to be careful with this depending on its condition. Its an alternative. regarding the wiring. this was one of the revelations for me as far as owning this tonearm. If I may use the analogy of walking a dog. For me achieving a good setup with my ET tonearm is like training a dog and the wire loom is the leash. A well trained dog never tugs on the leash and the leash always remains limp to the handler. The ET2 doesn't need the wiring and/or air tube as some other air bearing linear trackers do in their design for damping - its a free spirit and just wants to ride the grooves that are not crazy eccentric. Anyone that has moved the spindle in and out of the manifold with just 3 psi, knows what we are talking about - think - Slippery. So a recommendation for later on. Pull the wiring from the armtube/spindle areas. Set the ET2 up and balance it without the wires. Then add the wires. You will see first hand how much the wires affect its movement. Without doing this you just don't know how much effect the wires have. effect vs affect above - I can never remember ? so I used both - 50/50. As far as setting up the wires on the ET2 once balanced without them; simply add/run the wires along the armtube (are you and "in'ee or and out'ee") direct to your phono stage with a happy face loop in between to remind you of the great setup job you did. :^) thats it. I am still searching for a wireless solution btw. HNTB and Frogman - regarding suspensions. My opinion is there are suspensions and then there are suspensions. Think firm Pneumatic suspension. Frogman
+1 on removing springs; certainly trying it. Never owned the Goldmund, but have done so with three VPI's with great results. I also removed the springs from a HW19MKIV and TNT. Went pucks with the HW19 and Pneumatic with the TNT. a pic of the TNT is in my system page. I believe you are also running a pneumatic type suspension now on your TNT Frogman ? |
Chris, I agree re firm pneumatic suspension; that was the best solution for me given my table's environment. My TNT sits on a wall shelf which fixed the springy floor problem I was having, but created others. With my previous HW19's (II, III & IV) I experimented with just about everything. The sound was best with upturned large tiptoes, but settled on upturned short tiptoes sitting inside Sorbothane pucks as the best compromise. I did not like sound with the springs nearly as much.
BTW, the Forsell still sits in the box (es) :-( |
Thanks Again CT,
Have done a careful 1st setup trying to free the wires as far as possible, the arm came with VdHul silver wires, a little stiff from what I can gather, will only find out what she does once I get compressor connections done with moisture filter, hopefully tomorrow, its been quite a challenge just getting male to female to androgenous etc...
talk about affect vs effect!
Have a loaned MM for these early learning days, till I find my ET feet... but it looks gorgeous with a new clean plexiglass surface to hide the old surface damage on Goldmund acrylic, resprayed the base with quality german metallic black, Goldmund is back to beautiful...
Will test as is before I alter the springs etc, but I hear a majority in favour. My room is quite large, with a T&G hardwood floor, on a stainless steel spiked stand with double glass shelves separated by sorbothane, have to take all this into acount before altering the system.
IMHO Pierre Lurne who I think designed these Goldmund TT's was no slouch, there's a lot of brilliant thinking in there.
Thanks again for all the info, as I've been setting up this machine I realise how much brilliant engineering has gone into the design, its like an open ended musical annotation system, just waiting for someone to understand it... |
Frogman - BTW, the Forsell still sits in the box (es) :-( Frogman - this indicates to me that you are happy with the current set up. enjoy the music :-) fwiw - I find it very ironic and kind of funny actually that your Forsell, and my JN Lenco, two highly praised tables from a particular bloggers webage, lie in storage..... albeit for different reasons. Fascinating hobby. LK - VdHul silver wires, a little stiff from what I can gather imo - stiff for this ET2 air bearing application - not great. In another air bearing application where the design needs the wire to resist a little for damping - another story. Which do you feel is a better design ? Stiff wire inside a speaker cabinet - not a bad thing. my experiences - Braided unshielded wires help to resist RF, which is a good thing. But the wire itself become very unruly with a mind of its own when braided and asked to curve just a little. This can become a real PITA real fast. Where it leaves the armtube my wires are separated like strands of hair. Their physical resistance is cut by at least half by doing this. Each wire is then tested for RF individually. Preamp muted, lower the stylus onto a still record, unmute your preamp phonostage turn the volume up - move each wire around until things are quiet. Hold in place with blue tack. Look forward to your impressions LK. Cheers |
New member of the owner's club here. I'm a bit confused by mine though. Do I need a special turntable? |
I'm a bit confused by mine though. Do I need a special turntable? :^) Welcome to the da club Banquo363. Interesting sellers pic of the ET2 you posted. I did a double take on it. I assume (like the others here?) that the seller had little knowledge of the ET2 based on this pic, and was therefore just the seller and not the previous owner. The armtube is showing 2 o'clock time. The seller needed to roll it back 5 hours (counter clockwise) to get to the 9 o'clock position to be correct for the sales ad picture. You got yourself an ET2 with a carbon fibre armwand and cartridge too. A type of aluminum ? pod / tonearm holder by the looks of it. I wonder what is inside the pod ? guess we will find out ..I think some real audio hobby passion went into this one by someone ...... fwiw - take notice of the green bubble level on the manifold. From my experiences these don't work with the ET2 and this is why. 1) Turntables are made from different parts. Getting one part level whether the plinth, platter, tonearm base...does not guarantee all of them will be level especially the air bearing spindle. I level in this order 1) the platter, 2) The ET2 with its own leveling spikes 3) The air bearing spindle last - using gravity not my eyes for 3 and by making it free float and not move. Think teeter totter with two same weighted friends. 2)If you do this with your eyes and the bubble level you are ignoring the effect of the wires - push or pull when the armtube is placed at the platter outer, inner edges and midpoint. Once leveled by free floating the bubble level may be out a little. This is the effect of the wires from my experiences. Leveling without the wires first then adding the wires in would confirm this. |
I'm a (very) long time user of the ET2 arm, I owned the ET one before. I still find the arm superb!
I have a first comment, others might follow.
The question of resonance frequency is mostly re-cycled from some sources, that did a lot of calculations a lot of time back. That's OK, but there is one aspect missing IMO.
The main signal is cut laterally, one can safely assume that if there are very low frequencies on an LP it is cut *laterally*. The main disturbance laterallyis off-center records (0.55 Hz).
The off-phase info is cut vertically. The off-phae low frequency part is not doing anything helpful in normal rooms, so usually the LF signal below ca. 100Hz is blended to mono.
This leads to severely different optimal resonance frequencies horizontally and vertically. More will follow.
Let it be said that my most memorable analog experience in the 70's was a FR64 & FR7 combo - it had *decidely* "suboptimal" resoance frequency, ie. far below 10Hz. It sounded better than anything else I heard at that time, and I still the *bass" and ambience of that front end. There's a physical reason for it, I think. |
I remember this combo clearly because it was visible that it had rel. low damping and an unusually low resonance frequency. I knew and was used to tonearm/cartridge combos with "correct" resonance frequency. This one was incorrect - and sounded better than anything I had heard (in the low-mid frequencies, in dynamics and resolution).
If "correct" resonance frequency would be the main reason for optimal or non-optimal sound, such suboptimal resonance frequency should have almost destroyed any potential of good sound. (that's what I thought then).
The normal warp & rumble zone is usually quoted between 2 to 5Hz - it leads basically to vertical accelerations. If one assumes that there are no important signals to be traced below 20 Hz or even below 50Hz (because the big excursions involved in low freq. creates problems for the cutting head *and* the cartridge. And because even in big listening rooms it is difficult to reproduce phase differences in LF) one places the optimal *vertical* resonance frequency between 5 and 20, or more radically even below 5 and 50Hz.
-> Vertical optimum is around SQR(5x20)=10 Hz or even SQR(5x50)=21 Hz
(so long so good, so often heard).
Horizontally there is a main disturbance at 0.55Hz (33.333rpm/60"), maybe 0.75 Hz (45rpm/60"). But there is a good reason to extend extraction of musical information like ELF reverb etc. down to at least 5Hz - if possible. Cutting and manufacturing LPs has several modes of creating vertical disturbances but only one or two horizontal issues: Off-center records (which actually could and should be corrected) and horizontal bumps on the cutting lathe - rare (but I have one such record in thousands of LPs).
So there is a moderate, but constant excitation/acceleration on 0.55Hz (basically correctable) and a useful extended LF range down to 5Hz which leads
to an
-> optimal horizontal res. frequency of SQR(0.75 * 5) = 2 Hz
I agree that low horizontal res. frequency is not without problems (with highly off-center records). But preventing this problem with much higher (ie. standard) horizontal res. frequency means loosing very worthwile ELF information (which, as said above, is cut mainly in the horizontal plane.)
So the *often" alluded main "achilles heel" of air bearing arms is actually an advantage, in an "objective", physical sense. About the same time, I drew these thoughts up on paper, I found the new Mörch arm which does *exactly* follow these reasonings, with superb result. It couples the cartridge to a *very* high horizontal mass. Experiments show that the rigid coupling of that horizontal mass vs. the cartridge is sonically important.
The ET 2(.5) and other air bearing arms have the same high hor. mass advantage "built in for free".
The decoupled counterweight of the ET 2 gives simply more freedom with problematic pairings of cartridge, arm and off-center records.
Maybe, when it is not necessary, blocking the decoupling could have advantages sound-wise.
BTW in my experience it is extremely important to have both the platter and arm *extremely* well levelled in the horizontal plane. Side-forces on the cartridge cantilever lead to plummy bass. Probably because a variable pull with varying tracking friction on a laterally deplaced cantilever gives dynamically varying side forces - which might energize the horizontal resonance. It sure is very audible. In my setup it is important to check regularly, floating the arm with two equal blobs of Blue-Tak on both sides of the arm, one at the backside of the arm, the other on the counterweight. |
Hello Pegasus Two posts that imo generate very good thought. I need to first say that ever since this ET2 thread started I get a special feeling in my gut whenever a long term ET2 owner posts in this thread for the first time. Especially when it is his first post on audiogon. Remember how this thread started - "Where are you guys ?" IMO - anyone that has owned ET2(.5) for a significant period of time, has been through a huge RE:LEARNING process with their records and how to play them, especially if your main tonearm before was a pivot arm. So welcome to this thread which I now see is about to touch 1/2 million views soon. Who knew ? When you say The main signal is cut laterally, one can safely assume that if there are very low frequencies on an LP it is cut *laterally*. The main disturbance laterallyis off-center records (0.55 Hz).
The off-phase info is cut vertically. The off-phae low frequency part is not doing anything helpful in normal rooms, so usually the LF signal below ca. 100Hz is blended to mono.
The normal warp & rumble zone is usually quoted between 2 to 5Hz - it leads basically to vertical accelerations. If one assumes that there are no important signals to be traced below 20 Hz or even below 50Hz (because the big excursions involved in low freq. creates problems for the cutting head *and* the cartridge. And because even in big listening rooms it is difficult to reproduce phase differences in LF) one places the optimal *vertical* resonance frequency between 5 and 20, or more radically even below 5 and 50Hz.
-> Vertical optimum is around SQR(5x20)=10 Hz or even SQR(5x50)=21 Hz
(so long so good, so often heard).
Horizontally there is a main disturbance at 0.55Hz (33.333rpm/60"), maybe 0.75 Hz (45rpm/60"). But there is a good reason to extend extraction of musical information like ELF reverb etc. down to at least 5Hz - if possible. Cutting and manufacturing LPs has several modes of creating vertical disturbances but only one or two horizontal issues: Off-center records (which actually could and should be corrected) and horizontal bumps on the cutting lathe - rare (but I have one such record in thousands of LPs).
So there is a moderate, but constant excitation/acceleration on 0.55Hz (basically correctable) and a useful extended LF range down to 5Hz which leads
to an
-> optimal horizontal res. frequency of SQR(0.75 * 5) = 2 Hz It is my understanding that bass below 100 hz is mono as well. Your comments make me curious whether you have been involved in the lp engineering/mastering side at all ? Do you still own the ET1 ? The decoupled counterweight of the ET 2 gives simply more freedom with problematic pairings of cartridge, arm and off-center records. Maybe, when it is not necessary, blocking the decoupling could have advantages sound-wise. A profound thought that IMO can only come from a long time owner with direct experiences. Indeed the ET2(.5) can accept all cartridges I have thrown at them so far, From extreme high compliance Sonus Blue Gold to the XV1 although the 2.5 by design is happier with heavier MC's. The problem is learning how to use the counterweight/springs does take time and patience. I am past the swapping of cartridges stage and have now settled in and just love listening to my music. BTW in my experience it is extremely important to have both the platter and arm *extremely* well levelled in the horizontal plane. Side-forces on the cartridge cantilever lead to plummy bass. Probably because a variable pull with varying tracking friction on a laterally deplaced cantilever gives dynamically varying side forces - which might energize the horizontal resonance. It sure is very audible. In my setup it is important to check regularly, floating the arm with two equal blobs of Blue-Tak on both sides of the arm, one at the backside of the arm, the other on the counterweight. Agree, in fact Bruce should have shipped ET2 (.5) all out with a pack of Blue-Tak. For me it is the audio wonder tweak. It holds, it dampens, it can even clean your stylus.... Cheers |
CT0517 - For me it is the audio wonder tweak. It holds, it dampens, it can even clean your stylus.... Blue-Tak audiophile tip # 115. Put a very small touch of Blue-Tak on your "audiophile" screwdriver tip. You know the one with the Cocobolo handle that is used to put the cartridges on and take them off. Presto ! you will never lose another screw in the carpet. Your wife will never hear you utter the words " Damn ! I just lost one of the screws, and now only have one like that one left ..they were a special one of kind pair buy from xxxx ". To this very day I am too scared to vacuum in the immediate vicinity of my analog rig for fear of hearing tinkle, tinkle, tinkle, tinkle, in the vacuum cleaner dirt holder. Screws from years past. I think there is a couple ET2 leaf springs down there too :^( |
all the leafs are brown... the fall is coming.. :-)
Yes Blue-Tak is something to have around, and I use it (I'm swiss :-) on my jewelers screw driver - when I remember...
No, I wasn't in LP mastering / cutting, but I have a profound interest on the electronic & physics side of that hobby. I make recordings of concerts at our place, and did some recordings already in the 70's with a semi-pro JVC portable cassette-deck from my brother.
And I did a few Magnepan modifications for customers, and made new low-diffraction panels, and calculated all new crossovers for MG3 and MG 3.3s.
I had to trade in the ET1 for the ET2, so I don't own it anymore, contrary to the ET 2 it was slightly crude in set-up and detail solutions - but it worked very well.
My main messages about the arm (which I always loved) are as follows:
- If the bass is off, it's probably the set-up (side level or maybe a too softly springed counterweight stud).
- If I only touch the VTA adjustment a bit on *my* ET2 - the side-leveling is severely off. If it's not, I was lucky. To check is better than to believe...
- The "critical theory" against air bearing arms, and specially the ET2, stands IMO on very shaky feet, as I tried to show above. If there is a structural problem it might be the slight elasticity in some of the joints.
- subchassis turntables have two main problems with an air bearing arm:
- the lever mechanism of the shifting mass offsets the subchassis (-> increases sideforces)
- The needle drag problem, ie. the varying friction with tracking, potentially sets up rotational forces in the subchassis, with every arm. This leads to a slight instability in the subchassis and pitch uncertainties. But it also kicks air bearing arms in a different, very undesirable and quite audible way: Side-ways. (Much more audible than a radial tonearm, where the kick goes much more along the stable axis needle to arm bearing).
So one gets both problems - the bass instability and the pitch instability.
But it's still feasible and it can sound very good.
- In my book of experiences, every screw that creates a touch more grip than needed to keep a joint or a connection from gliding, introduces quite severe grades of transistor-feedback sound. I understand this as a necessary minimal torque, but every further bit of torque is like tuning the screw up, in the sense of a steel string. Tune these down & out, and they ceae to resonate. It is less storage of resonant energy. So my ET 2.5 runs with minimal torque on all screw connections. It sounds less artificial and more integrated to my ears.
My ET 2.5 sits now on a partially spring suspended Technics SL1210 with some modification on the electronics. With a very old, original AT OC7, which sounds very, very good here. I know, it shouldn't :-) |
****So my ET 2.5 runs with minimal torque on all screw connections. It sounds less artificial and more integrated to my ears.****
Hah! Precisely my observation. Very good exchange, Chris and Pegasus; thank you. |
Hi Frogman - as Pegasus said the leaves are turning, some brilliant colors. It marks the transition soon from summer cottaging up north to some serious music listening coming up to help me get through the winter. Pegasus - From your last post you must have quite the space to be able to hold concerts. I miss my daughters daily piano solos while she is away most of the year at school. When you mention customers and repair, modifications to Magnepan, do you have an electronics business of some type? Many good points - the "minimal torque" a key one that was discussed here early on and Frogman indeed stressed it initially. If I may share some experiences with this "minimal torque" and it directly relates to your comment; If I only touch the VTA adjustment a bit on *my* ET2 - the side-leveling is severely off. If it's not, I was lucky. To check is better than to believe... The coffee has not kicked in yet so pls excuse any rambling. If I really start going you know the coffee is starting to work. My first ET2 over 10 years ago now that came on a VPI HW19 MKIV. From my other tonearms in the past including Technics, SME, VPI's, Dynavector, FR64s, etc... they all come/came with a flat surface mount. They are relying on the partner table to be level. This is not good. Turntables are crude devices. Many plinths/armboards not level with the turning platter. The cartridge is always the end victim. The ET2(.5) as we know have a genius grommet 3 spike mount. They could be mounted on the Leaning Tower of Pisa if need be. However the spikes WILL dig in over time if the surface is not hard, which causes the Pillar of the arm to go out of level. I have seen people mount them directly on hardwood. Not good. The VPI tables came with an aluminum plate to prevent marring of acrylic. Never great IMO to add layers but there was no choice and business (selling the tables/tonearm combo at the time) meant it had to be done. The spikes can be shaved down to allow for removal of the plate and naked mounting on the acrylic. ET2's mounted naked on a hard surface are much better sounding to me. Multiple layering of armboard materials - UGH ! And then some put layers on their platters too... sorry to ramble; ok that first table VPI HW19 MKIV / ET2 I got, the previous owner could not get the ET2 to work. Long story short it was set up bad and the pump was down 1/2 psi - could not complete the last grooves of a record. I got another pump, which allowed for whole lps to be played; the sound in its as is condition still trumped the VPI JMW 12 inch arm at the time. I used it for a while then decided to take it apart. I discovered the two vertical bolts that level the arm on the VTA pillar were tightened down so much by (previous owner/s and my short use to that time) that they had put two bolt indents in the base below. Imagine the stress put on by the bolts. This was truly the opposite of minimal torquing. These Two Vertical Leveling bolts are an operational dilemma with the ET2. Owners set them up initially and everything seems fine. Then over time with cartridge changes, bumping or moving the table, room seasonal structural changes to wood beams, etc ... things go out of level a bit and the vertical bolts need small adjustments over time. Owners give the vertical bolts a touch of a turn here and there not realizing the bolts are already putting pressure down. They go away on holidays. Come back... more listening. There is no way one can remember how much torque is on those bolts. A little more adjusting here and there. This ends up stressing the plate below, and could deform it. You will never get the patented VTA to work ! So this is a mistake not in initial setup, but from an ongoing operation. A possible outcome if not observed and it is not covered in the manual. One person I know did not realize how much force he had placed on the plate below and he ended up actually cracking it. How I solved this problem was easy (like some things in our lives) Simple awareness and a habit change. If a level adjustment is needed, take 30 seconds and undo the torque on each vertical bolt; then re-apply this "minimal torque" as required on each bolt, as if setting them for the first time. This takes 2 minutes total time to do. This is very important and has worked well for me. If you have mounted the ET2 spikes on wood direct - you will never get the table/Et2 and the VTA to work properly as the spikes will dig in over time causing a shift with the different tensions used to get level initially. My two ET2(.5) are mounted naked on a solid brass billet pod with the SP10MKII, and on the Aluminum solid billet pod on the La Platine Granito Verdier (Mr. JC Verdier- RIP) Both are bolted down to the plinths below. The VTA works the pillar stays level. Metal ET2 spikes on a metal armboard. IMO - success with any analog rig regardless of the cost point comes from the setup and paying special attention to the details. One more detail - The one ET2 (.5) threaded mounting hole is filled with oil prior to inserting the bolt. If you are using a wood armboard do not put oil in it. |
For non-Et2 owners reading, the vertical bolts referenced in the previous post can be seen here click meThey are circled in red. Also - when I do setup on the 2.5 it is always without the wiring. The wiring gets added after. IMO - the only way to fully understand (if you are little anal and want to know) how much of an affect the wiring has is to follow this process. When I used to set up with the wiring, the wiring push / pull caused the post leveling to be off a bit. The effects was different with different wires. With the mounting post doing its impression of the Leaning Tower of Pisa - it means your VTA adjustments are thrown out. Cheers and Happy Canadian Thanksgiving |
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Hi Ct & Frogman!
"My place" is a historical house we run as a hostel, with a cultural program (which I organize with a few friends). The remaining time (not much) & energy (still enough) is spent on hifi and developing concepts & ideas. This has a company name and is actually more like a small personal counseling service to customers (who often are or became friends).
And I play in an amateur wind-instrument band.
And yes, Frogman, I read about and appreciated your similar experience with the screw torque. (And the sax (?) playing).
You're right with the several modes to mis-tune an ET2. It needs a bit of 3D operational understanding and then every screw (inside the brain too) falls into its place.
I leave the basic side-ways adjustment (the two posts) with very low torque, and keep the locking tilt screw fixed. I do lateral (and vertical) fine-tuning with the tripod screws in a balanced way: up one, down the other. The torque on the central pillar fixing screw stays the same this way.
I think it is really moving the VTA lever itself which dis-balances the arm a bit and the mechanism is not quite keeping the arm quite level. I pull the VTA lever with one finger using the bearing as a base, so there are (almost) no forces going to the plinth and the connection to it.
I "feel" the same about less interfaces is more (underneath the Tiptoes). But I got good results with small single steel pieces underneath the tiptoes. I think a whole steel or alu plate is less desirable. I will look to improve on this in my actual ad-hoc installation, which has a few things to improve.
BTW another tweak I use is trapezoid wedges of cardboard which I slide in (vertical) underneath both ends of the bearing housing (or damping trough) until they slightly lock the bearing to the plinth. This absorbs any horizontal elastic movement of the bearing on top of the pillar. They have to be applied with plyers, and should put symmetrical force to not unbalance the arm. I do this after having found my preferred settings (... :-) |
You're right with the several modes to mis-tune an ET2. It needs a bit of 3D operational understanding and then every screw (inside the brain too) falls into its place. Brilliant, such an abstract thought and very well said. Set up requires very out of the box thinking. Imo –we are not talking about trying to put the round peg in round hole here. The records are very imperfect things and have not changed since the beginning of time. The ET2 has been built as a slave to the record. Trying to go rigid in every aspect of a tonearm’s construction will not work when the source is so Flexible ! ok my opinion again. Moving around off centered, up and down ! Lets remember the stylus changes /modifies the actual vinyl for a temporary period and a cooling period is required for it to go back to shape. Do you want your tonearm to be a big heavy stick or a delicate wand. Also repeat setup of the ET2 will not make the brain kick into gear - imo. I tend to just repeat old habits over and over this way. One needs to have reached a comfortable level with the ET2 first. You need to be relaxed, sit back and while enjoying some music you look over at the arm working in such precision on the record and then it just clicks. You will know when these moments happen. It requires patience, calm and time/experience. Readers are wondering why the hell go to all this trouble for a bloody tonearm. After all I can plunk :^) down my Dynavector 505 tonearm on any plinth or armboard - unscrewed - and just based on its immense weight get music playing by design. But - like I told an audio friend recently who is in the initial setup of his ET2; once you have had your first good run with familiar music - you are hooked. The sounds you hear snap into play and flow. Like water from a pipe. The Endorphins flow :^) BTW another tweak I use is trapezoid wedges of cardboard which I slide in (vertical) underneath both ends of the bearing housing (or damping trough) until they slightly lock the bearing to the plinth. This absorbs any horizontal elastic movement of the bearing on top of the pillar. They have to be applied with plyers, and should put symmetrical force to not unbalance the arm. Very interesting thx for sharing. Frogman - Enjoy the Colors Frogman – where we are (like other places I assume) the leaves are enjoyed for their beauty, shade and then the burst of colors before they fall and depending on where you live a problem if they need to bagged or recycled. It is my understanding from (internet reading) that in Japan the leaves are battered, deep fired and eaten ? Can anyone with real experience here provide more information. A recipe maybe - :^) The oak leaves take forever to fall and come spring are still there ! |
****Trying to go rigid in every aspect of a tonearm’s construction will not work when the source is so Flexible !****
THAT is the kind of thinking that let's a sound system translate the information in the grooves (or pits) into MUSIC; and the kind of thinking that is often missing in this great hobby.
Chris, after a few years of suffering the bagging of leaves at our upstate place (incredible views this time of year) I discovered the benefits of simply mulching the leaves with my riding mower. It has to be done more frequently than would be otherwise; but if done correctly, is not only much easier on one's back, it is good for the lawn. Regards. |
Gentlepeople.
Just another take on the thoughtful input from Pegasus.
Is it possible that the screw torque adjustment thing is at least partially due to the disruption of multiple mechanical paths? Lets look at the arm as a set of parallel mechanical conductors carrying current to "ground" (the plinth). In the ET their are multiple paths in the pillar and interface with the plinth. We have likely all experienced earth loops in our HiFi journey. Could this be something similar. Multiple parallel paths with slightly different propagation times, creating the equivalent of an earth loop. By disrupting, breaking, some of these paths are we actually building a single path to ground, hence cleaning up the mechanical earthing of the arm. |
Yes, this makes sense, and in an additional view-angle it's also like looking at ground loops like HF currents, overlaying each other with more or less phase differences, because "tuning" the screws (down) also tunes (down) the speed of each transmission path individually, and tunes (down) the Q of the resonances individually.
This BTW is also an aspect in different ways of mechanical equipment grounding. Depending on how you ground vibrations, more or less energy travels at more or less speed across the room, ie. across the floor, eg. to ones "ground receptors", the feet.
I mainly think in terms of rigidity as: "how much is *really* necessary". This & not more. One really has to check by ear, with a "natural" and integral way of listening. The "low rigidity way" keeps the musical range much more together, sounds more fluent. But it may sound less "impressive", less bassy, less "brillant" etc. Instead one hears more of the structure of sound, and listens into the quality of instruments *and playing* quite a lot easier. |
****Instead one hears more of the structure of sound, and listens into the quality of instruments *and playing* quite a lot easier.****
Precisely. And speaking of instruments, this relates to what is being discussed and, while perhaps saying the same thing, approaches the issue more strictly from the "resonance" angle:
The saxophone and all woodwind instruments incorporate a series of levers and keys which remain open or closed due to the tension of a designated metal needle spring. Each key will remain in its "natural state" (open or closed) until the downward pressure of the player's fingers reverses it's natural state; either closes or opens it. The tension of each spring can be altered either by bending the spring a certain amount during the instrument's "setup" process or simply by using a lighter or heavier spring. The instrument will sound (and certainly feel to the player) more tonally coherent and with a more "right" timbre (which will affect even the perceived intonation (!)) if all the springs (upwards of twenty) have the same or similar tension. |
