Eminent Technology ET-2 Tonearm Owners

If I can't tame some of the brighter records with VTA I'll try some damping.

Harry

The aluminum armwand is not a great match with the Lyra. If getting the Carbon Fibre or Mag armtube is not an option you could try damping the armtube. I think Frogman is out of his Magic Audiophile armtube wrap ? Maybe others can suggest other options ?

I would be tempted to just try two Blue Tac dots on top of each cartridge bolt head. You could weigh each on a digital gauge. This will obviously mean you would need to go out higher on the I beam - a good thing; as long as there is room on the end of the "Pirate Plank". :^)

Cheers Chris 

Hello Chris,
Thanks again for the extra tips.  I'm going to do some more listening before I go back to the double spring plank.   I'm just starting to play with VTA after many years.  Before these latest improvements I really could hear only a subtle difference in VTA changes, if any.  I just played the Analog Productions pressing of Sonny Rollins "Way Out West".  Contrary to some other records I have played, it sounded a little thicker than I remembered it.  I dialed in some VTA (post down) and it thinned out/tightened up.  Soooo, with my improvements I can now detect the VTA adjustments.  Lyra recommends arm perfectly level to platter claiming proper VTF wil result in proper VTA.   This is a little counterintuitive since it does not take into account different record thicknesses and different cutting angles.  

If I can't tame some of the brighter records with VTA I'll try some damping.  I am, indeed, a music lover with about 1500 LPs.  Not near your collection but significant.  I have very eclectic taste including pop, country, folk, blues, but mostly jazz and almost no hard rock.  Preferred listening is jazz quartets and trios and female vocals.  I am a huge Keth Jarrett and Bill Evans fan.  Early Miles and Coultrane.  I don't do drugs so I can't follow their later stuff.

The wife has pretty much abandoned the living room to me except when we have company and at bed time when I frequently hear "Can you turn that down a little."

I'll report back after more extended listening and VTAing.
Thanks, 
Harry

^^^^

Hi Harry

your comments above could describe going to a different design speaker. :^)

Who are these people that say the source is not amongst the most important in the audio chain ? Try pulling this one off with digital; with such a small change to the source setup.

This setup is, however, ruthless.

Your Lyra uses a

Namiki microridge line-contact nude diamond stylus (2.5um x 75um)

see Soundsmith comments that follow below asterisks.

I am reading into your comments that your ET2 with the 3 spring setup and the Lyra Delos is pretty much dissecting your albums now. Good ones - sound amazing. Not good ones - can no longer be listened to? Not great if you are a music lover with many albums.

Have you tried lowering VTA on the bright sounding ones and raising it on the muddy sounding ? Records, even same thickness ones are cut at different vertical angles depending on the plant they were made at. This is covered in detail by Bruce in the manual. The ET2 happens to be the only tonearm in the world (due to patent) that adjusts VTA without changes to anything else in the alignment (like VTF). (if the VTA block is set up right)

I think from a pure groove tracking sense your ET2 with the triple leaf spring is set up for Indy 500 Oval right now. If records were made the same and uniform physically like CD’s; this would work better. But the records and grooves are more like the races that go through cities. Each one is very different. I think, along with VTA adjustments, you will need some cushioning/damping.

So will be interested to hear how things change with first the double spring suspension, and also VTA changes.

**********************************

From Soundsmith describes styli on your cartridge.

http://www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information

Then, there are the "fine line" styli, including standard Contact Line, as well as the more esoteric evolutions such as Shibata, Micro Line or Ridge, Optimized Contour Contact Line (Soundsmith) and so on. These are almost always nudes, for lowest possible mass. These designs have a sharper edge (radius) that play the record groove walls, which allows better high frequency reproduction (especially at the inner grooves where it is more difficult) resulting in lower distortion, better imaging, depth, and many other aspects of fine analog listening that are lost when the high frequencies are not resolved as well - usually by lower quality stylus shapes.

The higher end designs, however, require far more precise alignment than the lower quality shapes, for what should be obvious reasons. It is easier to align a rounded end to a groove than a V shaped end. Alignment issues for both rotating off a vertical imaginary line in the groove looking end on, as well as tilting front to back along the groove become far more critical for proper tracing of the groove.

Then there are noise and wear issues. Conicals statistically trace less surface area of the groove wall, so can theoretically pick up less record damage (unless they trace an area where there HAS been lots of wear or damage) and can pick up fewer sonic bursts from defects or noise from dirt or other foreign objects in the groove. But the wear factor is higher (faster) for both the record and styli. Alignment considerations however, are much easier to achieve. But far poorer high frequency response. For analog, that’s bad.

Conversely, the fine line designs require records that are in better condition and cleaner to be played mainly noise free. But the reward for playing a good clean undamaged record with a properly aligned fine line diamond and quality cartridge cannot be overly described in terms of enjoyment.

******************

Curious to know how your wife is dealing with your newfound tweaking/ hot-rodding behavior as you are in a shared space ?
Chris

P.P.S.  Chris,  I didn't respond to your blu tac question.  I didn't notice any deadening with blu tac on the single spring plank. Having said that, with three springs and no blu tac things tightened up further.  This setup is, however, ruthless.  If it's a bad recording it's really bad.  Bright recordings are VERY bright.  But muddy recordings are very muddy too.

Hi Chris,
Bruce's I Beams arrived today!  Contrary to what I previously advised, when I removed my single, spring beam it did have some type of damping material on either side of the spring. What appear to be small rectangular pieces of plastic or rubber.
I started by attaching the new, triple spring beam.  Very nice improvement and I detected no tracking issues.  I listened for a while and then swapped for the double spring beam.  While not huge, the triple spring had audibly tighter bass.  I put the triple spring beam back on and played some very dynamic stuff which revealed no tracking issues.  Finally, I dug out my ancient Shure cartridge test record.  It has several bands to test Trackability.  Again, no tracking error detected.  Soooo, at least on my rig the triple spring works the best.

I would not have believed such seemingly small tweaks could bring such huge rewards.  I have increased air pressure moved the weights out to almost the 6 position and installed the new springs.  Each of these changes brought significant improvement.  

I can't thank you enough for all the suggestions.  You have helped me bring my system to a whole new level.

Lastly, I would be remiss if I did not comment on the overall quality of your ET forum.  I have read many audio forums over the years.  Many often degenerate into arguments over whether tubes are better than transistors, belt drive beats direct drive, or even politics.  Not so your forum, just honest observations and tips to help contributors and readers find true enjoyment from their music.
Harry
P.S. Tubes are better.😉🎶

Hi Harry

it was not imagined

This is not one of those audio tweaks that has audiophiles divided on forums on whether it works or not. It can not be imagined as we are making actual physical changes to the firmness of the I Beam, and also changes resonances. Trust me you will not be imagining things when you attempt the Triple Leaf Spring I Beam.

The Blue Tac does go against design - along with making things firmer it is also dampening / deadening from my experiences, so I would be very interested in finding out how it changes when you insert the actual double leaf spring I Beam that Bruce is sending you. I am a big stickler to staying with design and getting the most out of the designers intentions. With that Bruce told me years ago...." Yeah go ahead and load up the I beam with as much weight as you can ....as close to the air bearing as possible ....see what happens.... at some point you will bottom out the bearing."
So he is all for experimentation. :^)

I was going through some trying times and audiophilia nervosa was safe and helping me deal with things. So I got the extra weights from the car tire shop and molded them. They throw the old ones out so they were free. The look on their faces when I took a few was priceless. The same look the Wal Mart employee gave me when I bought the local store out of Blue Tac to fill the hollow Pillars of the VPI TNT to ........see what would happen.

Regarding Bruce’ comments.

He was a little skeptical of three springs and had concerns it "would not last."

Yeah, I mentioned earlier that tracking will be difficult but...... IMO, you still need the triple I beam so that you can personally get to understand what the limits of tracking are in your setup. fwiw - I am of the mindset and believe, not just for this hobby but all of them; in going a little past the limit to see what can be done. As long as you are not hurting anything, you can always come back a bit. In this case maybe settling on the double spring I Beam. I am using the double spring w/out damping right now.

I stopped drinking wine. I think the protein in it was keeping me up in the middle of the night. So beer and the occasional whiskeys now.

Well Chris, it was not imagined, blu tac tightened things up.  Of course it's the same wine.  Bruce says the new I Beams are on the way.  I'll leave you alone until they get here
Harry.

Good morning Chris,
Nice story about your preamp.  These are some of the adventures that make this hobby so much fun.  As you probably are aware ARC was acquired be the huge Sonus Faber conglomerate and it appears their services (and prices) are being affected accordingly.

i have communicated with Bruce and he is making up two new I Beams for me.  One with two springs and one with three.  He was a little skeptical of three springs and had concerns it "would not last."  

In in my impatience, last evening I pressed a small blob of blu tac where the beam attaches to the bearing tube.  It stiffened the spring significantly and I heard a substantial improvement. Lower, tighter bass, more defined images, darker background and far better decay.   Perhaps it was the mood and the wine but I found a big improvement.  I'll let you tonight whether it was real or imagined.
Harry

Quite the story on your special CAT SL1 Harry. Thanks for sharing. Your preamp is a keeper, and I think you will be between a rock and a hard place if you bring another preamp in. I have a story about a preamp too, and find it very ironic after your story.

When I went to audition an ARC Sp11 MKII, some 20+ years ago, the owner selling the SP11 also had a CAT SL-1 in the room. He had just bought the Sp11 MkII on a local audio website. I know because I had missed out on it, but was surprised to see it for sale again so soon. I wasn’t happy that he had raised the price couple hundred, but I probably would never see one again, so I went to see and hear it. One of my preamps at the time was the ARC Sp8 for a number of years, so I brought it along. Long story short. We went back and forth with the 3 preamps listening to music for a few hours. Thinking about it now, isn’t it amazing that complete strangers can do this together ?

Now I know he was not sure if he really wanted to sell it (one reason the session lasted so long); but what was he going to do with two preamps? I ended up going home with it. I sold the sp8 at a later date that year. The Sp8 price has doubled since. There is a real following for that thick sounding Sp8 preamp.

Now the thing about the ARC SP11MKII. We were running it that day in full featured mode where all the features/controls "circuits" are in play. All those circuits can be bypassed with flick of a switch and run in ARC’s hot rod mode. It’s a different beast when run in this mode. Plus it has adjustable gain on a dial, separate from the level/volume. ARC still don’t offer that anymore. I have trialed with some pretty good preamps since, but none have sounded better. So still have it. I consider the SP11 MKII and the CAT SL-1 among those very special Audio Products. I discovered Bruce used an SP11 when he tested out our Acutex.

Also
I am of the opinion after my experiences with trialing other preamps and balanced designs; that if something is designed right and executed well - the single-ended circuit can in fact sound better than balanced because fewer parts are being used. You do have to be more anal with your cable setup, positioning, grounding.

That SP20 you mentioned looks interesting, but you know... I am getting some not great vibes from ARC just from the communication aspect, or lack of, with Kalvin at ARC over the last year. All replies have come back not as Kalvin, but as general ARC Customer Service with not much help except "look in the manual". Not the company in this regard it once was. Used to be able to ring up Leonard or Kalvin, or email, and get a schematic or ask a question. I think those days are gone with the new ownership.

The VPI with your first ET2 was the same as mine.  Not sure if mine is a III or IV, but it is piano black, suspended with the acrylic deck and arm board.  I've toyed with the idea of replacing the springs with pucks but am concerned about footfalls with no suspension.  House has wood floors.  Sounds like a very slick bearing on your current platter.

We don't get so many black flies down here in N.C. but my father's family was all from Maine and as a kid we used to go up there for visits.  I do remember the black flies.  Not nice.

My Preamp:
I lived for many years in Fort Lauderdale, Fla.  My favorite audio shop was (and still is) in Hollywood, Fla. (Hollywood Sound),  just a couple blocks from the offices and factory for Straight Wire cable.  In fact the audio shop's owner's wife was the receptionist for Straight Wire.  One day while hanging out at Hollywood Sound I spied a used CAT SL-1 for sale and started salivating.  The SL-1 is the preamp that Straight Wire used during their formative days to develop their interconnect.  It had been modified to move the phono inputs to the left side right next to the first stage tubes of the phono stage (6DJ8's), the point to point wiring had been replaced with Straight Wire and the high/Low switch had been bypassed.  There maybe other mods but those are the only ones I recognized.

To make a long story longer, I bought the SL-1 and have now owned it for close to 25 years.  I have retubed from time to time and had to have the large capacitor in the power supply replaced but that's all I've had to do to it.  I have heard a lot of preamps over the years but, with the exception of a couple of ARC's (10's and 11's)  have never.been tempted to replace it.  Alas, no remote but I'm not yet so lazy or old that I must have a remote.  

Lately, I have been reading about the ARC SP 20.  Haven't heard one yet but the reviews are over the top and it has a remote.  Unfortunately, like most of the current ARC stuff, it is very expensive.  If one comes up on the used market at something I can afford I may have to jump.  I'd like to hear it first but I am very rural and I've found that auditioning in a showroom with someone else's system really doesn't tell all you need to know. 

How do you sleep at night ?

When I first discovered the silk thread/string gone, I panicked and looked at the exposed tonearm wiring. It was intact. Then I looked for the cantilever on the cart. It was still there too. Sigh of relief. She didn’t go to town on it. Door stays closed now. Never did find the silk thread .....don’t know where she dragged it to.

Sounds like you have a well setup rig Harry. I look forward to hearing of the results. Myself, I would keep the trough paddle not touching while you determine which of the I beams work best in your system with that cartridge. The triple I beam will make tracking the most difficult - least amount of damping. This is just like a car on a race track with three suspension settings. Race tracks differ as do LPs especially the eccentric ones. The theory - We are matching the I Beam action to the compliance of the cartridge; at the same changing the resonant frequency of the I Beam with the thicker leaf spring (multiple joined springs) ; to hopefully be more in sync with the less compliance cart. Your ears will tell the real story.

I owned a couple VPI’s in the past. My first ET2 came on a HW19 MKIV with the piano black finish - suspended, but no speed controller. That lead to a TNT that I owned for a few years. My current main table works much differently. The thread is applied loose and the motor delivers shots of power to keep the heavy platter rotating. If I change the speed on the motor a little, the platter speed change does not register till about 5 seconds later. That’s how little effect the motor has on the rotating platter.

Hope I’m not wearing you out.

I really like the AudioGon sharing of info during the winter. Usually on here in the morning. The caffeine kicking in is responsible for all the detail.
Until the bears that Frogman alluded to, take me away in late Spring; the schedule depends on when those pesky black flies calm down. I can deal with mosquitoes, I can deal with horse flies...but those damn blackflies ...

You have me very curious about your preamp ?

No dust cover?  How do you sleep at night?😰   Ok, a little hard to see from your pictures, but it looks like I just glue (super glue?) extra leaf springs to the front side of the I Beam (the side with the numbers).  I shot off an email to Bruce and told him you were the source of my inquiry/purchase.  I'll let you know results.  

I have corresponded with Bruce a couple times over the years and always found him most helpful.  BTW, my brother-in-law, also an audiophile, had occasion to visit Bruce at his home/factory several years ago while on a business trip to Tallahassee.  He said it was a most interesting visit.  

I envy you with your two listening rooms.  Mine is 1/2 of our living room so there are limits to what my wife can accept.  😢

FYI, my ET II is mounted on a VPI HW 19 (MK III I Think) upgraded with the original SAMA, TNT platter and bearing.  I use the Phorpenix Eagle and Roadrunner for speed control.  If you haven't come across these, I highly recommend them.  They keep speed on my rig locked in to within .002 RPM.

Hope  I'm not wearing you out.  I'm a retired 73 year old so I have lots of time on my hands.  I have an interesting historical note on my preamp.  If you are interested let me know.

Harry

Harry - my turntable doesn’t come with a dust cover like your vpi; so I keep the parts that matter covered and just dust the rest of it as needed. I do need to come up with a better system because the kitty stole the drive system from it last month. 8^0

Just got your response and still have questions but it's very late here. I'll respond more tomorrow.  I can't resist commenting on your last paragraph, however.  My lord you are more OC than me.  I keep a sheet of green felt on top of the dust cover on my VPI HW 19 to keep the dust off the dust cover.
Cheers,
Harry

Hi Harry

" no hammer required "

hah hah ....lol...I like your sense of humor :^)

there is a pic on my virtual system of the three I Beams. I looked #37. Good number for a race car ?

It’s been a really long time since I touched the I Beam or changed carts. I have been just playing records.

I would slide the weights off the I beam first, then you only need to loosen the end cap bolt. The I beam pulls right out. The leaf springs are glued together onto the I Beam - become permanent. Bruce can send you loose leaf springs and beams that you assemble and glue; or he will do it for you - but only if he is around and not traveling. In this case there might be wait. Warning ...he might be flying around somewhere studying the hearing of another exotic animal. What a life ! Make sure you say Hi to him from us here. I still can’t believe he took time out for us to test out the 420str cartridge aka..cracker jack box cartridge.

I’m not sure what you mean by trough oil migrating out. I only use enough to just touch the bottom of the paddle. Unfortunately, I have never come across any oil in this Audio hobby, or even boating and auto hobbies, that is not messy and just a real PITA. You need to be careful around it, and I am not the most careful person that’s for sure.

In discussions with Bruce years ago I did ask him why he didn’t put the trough at the front, assuming the arm is mounted on the right side of the table. From what I recall he said it was too messy and too great a chance of an accident happening in front. Analog can be so hazardous you know, compared to ........ Digital. Until you maybe accidentally delete your digital music files by mistake.........with no backup .......hah hah

The ET2 troughs are no longer made as far as I know so valuable, to an ET2 owner.

When not using the turntable I keep the armwand over so the cartridge is near the spindle. I then put a cover over the back end of the ET arm covering the trough and far end of the air bearing spindle/weights/I beam. I keep an old record on the platter itself. Dust still gets underneath it :^(

btw - A very nice cart you have with that Delos.

Chris,
Yes, I appear to have one leaf spring and examining my Beam/Spring where it connects to the spindle it does not appear that I have any damping material.  Looking at Bruce's parts diagram it seems a simple process to remove and replace the I Beam/leaf spring assembly.  Simply remove the screw from the back end of the spindle and slide out the beam/spring assembly. (no hammer required)   I am going to contact Bruce today to get the extra beams and springs.  How do the extra leaf springs attach to the I Beam?  Or do you just slide the extra springs in next to the one attached to the I Beam?

While on the subject of damping, I believe I mentioned earlier I have the damping trough attached but don't use because the silicone migrated out of the trough and made a mess.   Is there a substitute like some type of oil that would add damping but not be prone to migrate out of the trough?  
Thanks,
Harry

Yeah, the pump runs if I remember at 68 db if you hold an spl meter 5 feet from it. It needs its own room. Like my music :^)

Harry -  one more thought. 

Are you using one single naked leaf spring on your I Beam ? Naked meaning there is no damping material attached to it. This set up works well with high compliance carts and also bad out of center records; provides damping. Your Lyra is not high compliance and would benefit from less damping. I believe things will tighten up and come more alive.

If you contact Bruce he will send you 5 leaf springs and two I beams to make up double and triple leaf spring I beams. The cost for this is low, a few dollars, but the rewards can be high. There are others that have stuffed, "stuff" ...."material".... down beside the leaf spring to make it stiffer. Do this proper and get the real leaf springs from Bruce direct.
Just a recommendation. Good luck.

Chris and Frogman.    Your tips are very much appreciated.  When I work up enough bravery I'll pull the manifold and scrub it clean.   I had read Chris' earlier posts on the Timeter and was quite intrigued, however, my house won't allow me to get it far enough away not to hear the noise.  

I am going to keep my eyes open for a mag or CF wand.   They are kind of expensive new.

Thanks again for your time and advice.

here is a direct link to that manifold pic and it shows the correct cleaning
procedure that Frogman mentioned earlier, as a well as another pic grabbed from the internet showing the manifold parts.

https://goo.gl/photos/J7XD4gevCJrRN5CD8

Note the set screws in the manifold. The screws are set differently for
different PSI settings. One can see if you send isopropanol down the airline, this manifold surface and the set screws is what the fluid comes into contact with.

What can’t be seen is the inside of the black manifold housing.The inside of it should be scrubbed out too.

Harry - my no.1 passion is running. My wife asks me where I am running to and I can’t answer. I guess this make me a running fool. Anyway...because of the running I think; I am very biased about air quality...and I believe that it is this mindset, that set me on my I will call it "abnormal" pump journeys, with the ET 2.0- 2.5. The air compressor I am using the Timeter, builds pressure heats up the air, condenses it, drains the moisture down a tube (like your car’s ac system ) into a tray, then sends it down the main air line to my ET 2.5. I have never seen a drop in the regulator bowl next to the turntable. Well... one time when the tube in the Timeter pump got plugged with mineral deposits. Its design means moisture and and particulate traps are not required.

****************

I’m running a Lyra Delos on the ET with original arm wand.

Any opinions on whether I’d hear an improvement with the magnesium or carbon fiber wand?

http://www.needledoctor.com/Lyra-Delos-Phono-Cartridge

The Lyra Delos is

Compliance : Approx. 12 x 10 cm/dyne at 100Hz

I would run that cart with a CF or Mag armwand and the double leaf spring.

As you know the ET2 first came out with its original aluminum arm wand, when high compliance MM’s were really popular. I am using in my second room the original aluminum wand with the high compliance Acutex 420str and single leaf spring.

The Acutex is 36 x 10-6 cm./dyne at 100 Hz.

I think I'll try my thumb first.  I've never tried pouring alcohol down the tube and firing up the pump for the very reasons you describe.  

BTW I live in very rural Western North Carolina.  Earlier this week I woke up to 24 deg. F and the day topped out at 75 F.

I'm running a Lyra Delos on the ET with original arm wand.  Any opinions on whether I'd hear an improvement with the magnesium or carbon fiber wand?

I don't really want to take a hammer to my beloved ET II!

Harry, its takes more than a hammer to destroy the ET 2.

8^0



@Frogman

"unseasonably warm"

yes........ until today !

we went from 17 c (60 f) to -5 c (23 f) overnight. where else do get swings like that in temps ?

I can't believe I was getting visions of doing gelcoat repair on one of the boats :^(

Good to hear from you Frogman :^)  

Ah yes, the ole ......pour some rubbing alcohol down the air tube like a scientist........turn the pump on ........and listen to the fluid come out of the manifold pores onto the spindle. Extra cool when you manually move the spindle in and out as you do this.

Quite a satisfying slurping sucking sound ....no ?

And all those mineral deposits in the manifold get dislodged, moved, and deposited where exactly ?

Hi Chris,
I finally figured out how to get  your VS page and saw the manifold.  

Hi frogman,
Thanks for the tip on house cleaning.  I am, however, a little intimidated by the process of removing the manifold.  I've read some places you can simply press the manifold out with your thumb and other places that say I might have to tap it with a mallet.  I don't really want to take a hammer to my beloved ET II!

Not real up to speed on this blog.  Can't figure out where your "runner" is to get to the manifold picture to which you refer.  

In my years with this terrific arm I never experienced any symptoms that made me feel I needed to clean the manifold.  That said, about 6 months ago while in a real obsessive/compulsive state I scrubbed it out with alcohol and a small tooth brush.  I did not detect any dirt or debris on the tooth brush and noticed no difference in performance.  I did not, however, remove the manifold for cleaning.  I just took the tube off and scrubbed the inside of the manifold with the brush and alcohol.   About every couple years I do swab the tube with alcohol and a cotton swab.  The arm has never mistracked except on the few occasions when I was stupid and forgot to turn the pump on; the tube has never dragged in the manifold and I'm not reading what I would consider excessive pressure on the gauge which would indicate a clogged manifold. The Medo pump I'm using says it is rated at 7.11 PSI and I'm reading a little over 8 PSI on the gauge.
Nice hearing from you,
Harry

vpi, if you do decide to clean your manifold as Chris correctly inquires about, I would be careful to do it right and go through the more labor intensive (but worth it!) process of removing and cleanig the capillaries as discussed here previously and NOT the sometimes recommended (in other forums on line) method of simply sending an alcohol solution through the "system".  I did this years ago and it made matters much worse.  The improvement as a result of cleaning the capillaries was tremendous.  Regards.

Chris, how are the bears doing with the unseasonably warm weather? 

hello vpi

30 years of owning your ET 2 - wow. I am curious to know if during this time you have had to clean out your manifold ?

Some time ago an audio friend sent me a picture of his manifold before and after cleaning. This can be seen. It is picture # 32 on my AudioGon Virtual System Page. Click on my Runner to get there.

Cheers Chris

*****

Unfortunately the AudioGon System no longer allows me to link pictures from our virtual systems into a thread directly.

@Tammy (Audiogon Support) .......if you are reading this.... this is another example of why this feature should be returned. It would IMO significantly increase virtual system traffic as well. This can only be good for business.

Hello,

Been reading for about a year but this is my first post.  It is a real testament to the ET arm and Bruce that this thread has lasted over 5 years for a tonearm over 30 years old. The real purpose of my post is to thank you all for the knowledge and expertise you have shared.  While I have owned my ET II arm for nearly 30 years, I have only recently started tweaking it.  My tweaks are a direct result of the knowledge  shared by all of you. 

I have the original ET II arm with few upgrades except the trough which I abandoned years ago.  I found The silicon migrated out of the trough and created a real mess.  I was still using the original pump that came with the arm but had added a home made surge tank.

After reading posts here I bought a Wisa pump from eBay.  Got stung.  The pump was extremely noisy and had obviously been used with a salt water fish tank.  I took it apart and got it quieted down but it only lasted about two weeks and broke down.  I replaced it with a Medo pump and in the process discovered my surge tank was leaking at the connectors.  Built a new PVC surge tank with brass connectors and bought a pressure gauge which showed I was running @ 8 1/2 PSI.  The improvement in sound quality was jaw dropping.  And remember, this an original arm without the high pressure manifold.

 However, the Medo pump was a little noisy and since it is rated for only 60 minutes, it ran quite hot.  So.......I built a soundproof (well almost soundproof) box, installed a fan on one end and vent on the other to enclose the pump.  Voila, not audible from more than a few feet away and now runs just barely warm.  

Well, with this success I had to have more and read a bunch more posts here which got me intrigued with the debate over less weight further out the beam or more weight closer in.  I am using a Lyra Delos cartridge which Bruce considers light weight.  I was using 4 weights at about the 3 1/2 position on the beam.  I removed one weight which moved me out to about 4 on the beam. This lowered base response but was muddy and sacrificed high frequency response.   I considered adding weight back and moving them in, but thought, what the heck, let's take more weight off and move further out.  I am now using only two weights and they are at the end of the beam at the 6 position.  Wow!  Base got even deeper, tightened up and the resolution returned in spades.  Add me to the fewer weights, further out crowd. 

I am not sure which of the tweaks had a larger effect, the higher pressure pump or the weight redistribution. I do know they were not the psychoacoustic improvements that disappear in a day or two.  These tweaks were the equal of a major cartridge upgrade.

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Bdp24
Why his LFT-8b loudspeaker isn’t more widely known and owned is a mystery to me.

Hi Eric
Well imo..they sure don’t have any WAF. He should make a white wood version maybe, sort of like the jacket the assistant in that article is wearing. :^)

I think without the grills they are the coolest looking speakers I have ever owned. Others would say ....huh ? those are speakers ? Sound comes from them ? Regretted selling mine.
As far as I know from a few years back the LFT8 speakers have always been in demand with a backlog when ordering?

Thanks Chris, interesting info from Bruce, a very talented, clever, and creative engineer. Why his LFT-8b loudspeaker isn't more widely known and owned is a mystery to me.

I happen to come across this Bruce Thigpen '07 interview in a Machine Design publication. It has some nice insight into Bruce and his products.

My lifelong fascination with audio and sound reproduction resulted in the start-up of Eminent Technology in 1982. Unfortunately, 1982 was also the year the compact-disc player came along. And so it appeared that our first product, a high-end, air-bearing phonograph tonearm, wasn't going to keep the lights on indefinitely. Still, the demand for high-tech, high-end record players never disappeared entirely.

8^0

In the article Bruce gives good info on how dipole speakers work, and the reason for their bass limitations. There is also good info on how the rotary woofer works.  

Enjoy.

here is the link 

http://machinedesign.com/archive/good-vibrations-0

Hi Pegasus - I think I missed my calling. I am amazed by the physics that is happening with my turntable setup. Here I went, and became a consultant involved in a field, Business/IT, that was so new and exciting some 35-40 years ago. Who knew back then that it would be ever and always changing; so much so, that if you did not stay current, even for a few years, you become obsolete very fast.
  
You can't change Physics. Many have tried. Some have even tried with the ET2.

:^0

Hi Chris! I tried making photographs of the wiring - but the spot is too dark, and the flashlight messes things up – but I'll try again.
- It's funny you mention that (even) increasing vertical mass by minimizing & shifting the counterweight out on the I-beam improves bass. Ie. moving the vertical resonance down from a frequency above 12 Hz in many cases. Because "too low" resonance is much more a problem with vertical resonance, not lateral, as LP rumble is mainly a vertical problem – and you hear even there that lower is better. I don't doubt this!
How much less of a problem is a really high *lateral* mass within a certain safety range (not below 2-3Hz resonance)!
(Except that down there is a problem with magnetic flux with some MM and/or MI? cartridges I suspect and found - not with MC.)
- I think the quote of "lateral forces are .1 gm. compared to .2 gm on a conventional arm" refers to the forces exerted by wiring stiffness and skating forces, not to off-levelness of the arm.
If one doesn't want to exceed 0.2g lateral force one needs to set up the arm to a level precision of less than 0.2mm over a 100mm travel! It's no problem to level the arm as such - but the wire may exert a "correcting" force for an off-level arm, and changes this sideways force at a different place than where it was level. A bit of a case of luck with the original cabling, or wandering setup of the turntable base.
- The increased FM modulation with radial tracking goes back to the dynamically varying friction which dynamically varies skating force with modulation, different radius, different pressing / vinyl surface, and different aerosol deposits on the vinyl. With the straightline trackers are always tangential except LF resonance, off-levelness or other reasons for a slightly off-tangential cantilever. But this error angle is always much lower than with conventional radial arms with strong offset angles. 
- This absolute offset angle is really much lower with the Thales arms, specially with the newest, the Thales Easy.

Hi Pegasus

To have the arm helping leveling, the arm wiring is critical and needs to be thin and very elastic, ideally left/right separated with optimal wire looms.

You mentioned this type of wiring setup previously. I can envision it but would like to see a picture of it. Feel free to send a picture to me if you like at

bcpguy (at) bell (dot) net

and I can make the picture available to the others.

Another option is to have a straight shot all 4 wires exiting the armtube, which then go to the phono stage direct. On their way there, leaving the armtube are 4 separate strands which are placed in a happy face loop***.

This eliminates binding. Binding is the ET2’s kryptonite. The 4 wires attach to the nearby platform your phono stage rests on (around the mid travel point for the spindle). From there the wires are joined to the phono stage. A picture of this can be seen on my virtual system page - Just click on the Runner.

***
My daughters Bengal kitty loves my rooms, and I love her company, but her curiousness is fraught with danger. In room two it is the naked Quad Electrostats. In my main room, one evening as I placed a record on and sat in my chair, I could see shadows behind the turntable. Indeed a tail was waving. I looked over the table and there she was behind - eyeing both the spinning Platine thread and happy face 4 naked wire loop wiring - deciding I think which to pounce on first. My heart beat reached running levels in about 2 seconds.


Specifically to lateral forces - the ET2 versus conventional tonearms. As has been discussed here before.

"the lateral forces are .1 gm. compared to .2 gm on a conventional arm. These figures apply if you do not play records that are not severely out of round. If you like to play severely eccentric records, ones with run out greater than 1/8 ", then we suggest you use a low mass pivot arm"

Taken from Bruce’ measurements and published in the ET 2 manual - Page 47 - Antiskating and Frequency Modulation Distortion Section.

Pegasus
I doubt that in the 80’s all too many ET2s were set up correctly, thus leading to the mythos that straight tracker have a "problem in the bass".

I agree and I am pretty sure all first time ET2 owners of the 80’s, were previous pivot arm owners, who were fascinated with the ET2 arm design and function, but quickly became frustrated with incorrect setup from not reading the manual. The biggest technical error imo - leaving all the weights on the I beam, and simply moving them inward closer to the air bearing for more VTF - like is habit with most pivot arms. This does not give you the highest vertical inertia needed for the best bass.

Cheers

All true, pegasus. Thanks for sharing.

Dave

Regarding levelness of tangential vs. radial arms:
The side-force on the stylus in a (non-servo) linear tracking arm is proportional to the off-levelness and the lateral DC mass, ie. lateral weight: From 75g up.
With a radial arm this lateral mass/weight force is almost cancelled in case of non-balanced arms with tracking force / "tracking mass" remaining, 1.5 to 3g. With dynamically balanced arms it's totally cancelled, so it is (almost) not critical with radial arms.
The sideways pull on the cantilever created by lateral bearing off-levelness and/or off-level platter and/or off-level record is visible at the moment the stylus hit's the record, but is not easy to see.
To have the arm helping leveling, the arm wiring is critical and needs to be thin and very elastic, ideally left/right separated with optimal wire looms. The radial arms have the levering advantage...
Optimising & eliminating sideways forces unleash the bass and dynamics of the ET2 linear trackers. It is *very* critical.
I doubt that in the 80's all too many ET2s were set up correctly, thus leading to the mythos that straight tracker have a "problem in the bass". 

Dover - taken from a quick search "Dover Platine" on Audiogon.

Dover - 10-14-2012 8:18pm

The verdier platine comes with an option to use a ball and thrust plate. Essentially this means the platter is grounded, and provides an energy path to ground for unwanted energy or resonance. In this mode the magnetic repulsion is still employed, but it means the tt has a high mass platter, but the grounded bearing only sees a fraction of that weight. This is a very elegant solution and is used in the Continuum. I prefer this mode, the grounding tightens and focus’ the sound, increases resolution and articulation if applied properly.

Now to me, I question why someone would want to introduce a path for noise, resonances. The design of La Platine’s Granito plinth absorbs unwanted resonances.

It seems clear to me that in general terms, for those audiophiles that pursue higher end turntables, They do seem to fall into two camps.

They either want their turntable to

1) have a direct path for resonances (the quickest possible) to mother earth or

2) they want to isolate the TT as much as possible from her. La Platine has been designed by its maker for this camp. .

***********************************

Regardless. good that she went to someone that can appreciate her. IMO - She leaves too much open to the imagination and tweaking. To the pure audiophile who is never happy and constantly seeking change - she is a bad match I think. She is better imo with the person that is a music lover.

fwiw
My Vintage Granito La Platine and ET 2.5, are the only combination I have owned, that has ever even given me thoughts of hot rodding the Studer with 15 IPS tapes. If that isn’t reference quality, then we have different illusions Dover of what reference quality means.

Cheers

Dear Chris,
It is presumptuous of you to assume I ran the Platine Verdierwith the ball inserted. I trailed both.
Really the essence of what I was saying is that the motor drive system is substandard. Furthermore the bearing tolerances are woeful and I would recommend the Callas kit if keeping it.
Fwiw I sold it to an SME20 owner who found it was an improvement over that TT, so it is not bad, but it is not reference quality.     

@Dover re: your La Platine comments.

From the moment you stuck a ball bearing between the magnets of La Platine, our audiophile experiences became non-comparable. We went down two different paths.

I regard JC Verdier (RIP), like Bruce Thigpen, a genius. After all still to today their products are offered for sale. They have passed the test of time. I spent considerable time by phone and emails speaking to both makers about optimum setup. No one knows more about these products than their makers.

La Platine experience is like going on a date with a mature French lady. If you want to hit a home run (American baseball), imo, you need to follow her lead and let her show you the way. It appears from your comments you only got to first base with her. Pity.

As with all things Audio - proper setup is everything.

Ok I'll take the bait.
Way back in this thread, I posted a resonance transmissibility graph.
interpreted correctly it tells us a great deal about how the ET2 responds to various stimuli.
For example it tells us how brilliant BTs design is in controlling unwanted resonant peaks at the natural resonant frequency of oscillation of the system.
The system being the arm and the cartridge. Just a guess here, but it is most likely that the ET2 was designed when med to high compliance cartridges were very popular. A look at the owners manual adds to this perception, when it uses a cartridge with a compliance of 30cu to calculate the horizontal resonance of the system. (Horizontal being where most of the low frequency information is encoded in the grooves.)The FR in this case comes out to around 5-6 Hz, from memory. 
Now put this number, say 6 Hz, into the transmissibility graph I posted and we can see that when we approach the audio band ( 20 Hz and above) the transmissibility, depending upon the level of damping, will have fallen to around 10%. This means that 90%of horizontal groove modulation will be converted into useful cantilever movement. 10% of the modulation will cause the arm to SHIFT BACK AND FORTH.
In other words we lose some output  amplitude from the cartridge at 20 Hz. and the arm moves in sympathy to the groove modulation . As we move up in frequency, the loss of cartridge output and arm shake reduce, until it becomes insignificant at around 6 times the resonant frequency, Fo
Since it is the arms job to keep the cartridge still relative to the groove, it would seem that we have failed in this goal.

Now look at what happens when we use a stiff  cartridge, in my case around 9 Cu. If we keep the ET2 in its standard configuration with the decoupled counterweight the Fo now increases to around 8 Hz. 
Put this number into the graph and we can see that the arm lateral oscillation has now increased to around 30% at 20 Hz. Only 70% of the groove modulation is converted into cantilever movement. A large 30% is converted into making the arm shake horizontally at 20 Hz. This situation is worse than before. Not only do we loose much more useful output from the cartridge but the arm is now booging down to the music, shaking about quite significantly.
This is not a good thing. 

So so how to overcome this problem that exists most significantly when using stiff cartridges?
(if I was using a higher compliance cartridge I would not disable the counterweight decoupling)
Just as the makers of  Morch,  Dynavector, Walker, Kuzma,  Rockport clearly understand. Make the arm heavy in the horizontal plane, 
With the ET, this is simply achieved by disabling the counterweight spring. Now the cartridge sees the full weight of the arm all of the time. This lowers Fo back down to the nice range of 5-6hz. We minimise cartridge output loss and minimise arm shake, provided we take one additional precaution....

So what are the other consequences of locking the counterweight when using a low Cu cartridge.
1) much has been written in this thread that I risk impailing my neighbour with shards of diamond tipped boron as the cantilever explodes due to the effect of tracing an eccentric record. It has even been stated that such a setup as mine will result in an arm that will be 300% heavier than a standard ET, as seen by the cartridge. Back to the transmissibility graph. The ET manual tells us that with a single  counterweight spring the counterweight will swing horizontally at around 1.5hz. With an input frequency of 0.55hz for 33,1/3 rpm or 0.75hz for 45 RPM, we can see that under these conditions the transmissibility approaches 1. In other words the counterweight spring does NOT flex. The cartridge sees the full arm/ cartridge weight. Wand, spindle, cartridge, AND COUNTERWEIGHT. Under these circumstances my arm and a standard ET appear to the cartridge to be more or less the same weight. Under this stimulI, my arm and a standard ET behave in the same way.
Adding more springs to the counterweight assembly shifts the spring frequency upwards and has no impact on the weight the cartridge has to push around. It still has to move all of the arm. One more spring increases the 1.5 Hz frequency by a factor of root2 Two more by root3 
2) many more column inches have been dedicated to the myth that my arm has an enormous low frequency resonant peak at Fo ( around 6 Hz ) and this is disastrous to the sound quality. There are two words to dispel this "Critical Damping" . It is no accident that ALL of the arms I mentioned above have independent horizontal damping of some form. Just like my arm, where I use an oil trough, The level of damping is then simply adjusted to be around critical. This eliminates all the low frequency bump. There is none.
3) so we are now achieving nearly full amplitude low frequency output of the stiff cartridge by simply coupling the counterweight and we have no disastrous low frequency resonant peak. All good things for full range systems, just as Morch discusses in their info on the DP8 arm.
4) but what if your system doesn't plunge the depts to 20 Hz. All this would seem to be a waste of time. Well actually not so. I did not realise this until I got the oil trough properly set up. 
The clue is the standard ET arm actually shakes horizontally due to low frequency groove modulation when using a stiff cartridge. This in turn screws up all frequencies, not just the low stuff, because the arm is not providing a stable platform. So if we have low frequency information  present,  any  other higher frequency music which is playing at the same time will be distorted. 
This is the real benefit of locking the counterweight. But only do it if you are using a stiff cartridge say around 10Cu  and you are using an oil trough.
The image becomes solid, stable. A very appealing attribute.
It is not all peaches and cream however. This approach is very sensitive to the resonant characteristic of the structure that is used to carry the counterweight. For me this is still a work in progress.
Others have simply decoupled the counterweight by using blu tac. I have not tried this but it seems to be a good idea as it would help to damp the I beam as well.

cheers .

Ct0517
the other thing I want to mention is that pivot arms produce more resonance at the bearing. Bruce has actually measured this and documented it in the manual....
The most resonance can be heard in the bass.You need to get the bass right in any room. If someone wants to call this resonance - distortion - feel free. Air Bearing linear trackers produce less distortion - less resonance.

This statement is misleading.

The primary reason Bruce's ET2 has lower resonance in the bass is due to the the fact that the horizontal effective mass of the ET2 and the Vertical effective mass of the ET2 are different, resulting in a lower resonance amplitude compared to a conventional pivoted arm in which the horizontal and vertical effective masses are coincidental and cumulative in amplitude. This is not necessarily true of all tangential trackers, it will depend on the design and mass distribution of each particular linear tracking arm.

Secondly Bruce's patented decoupled counterweight system further lowers the horizontal effective mass through the use of a leaf spring which reduces the amplitude of the bass resonance. Reducing the bass resonance has significant advantages in reducing tracking distortion as confirmed in the 'Shure white papers' on tracking. There has been a suggestion by Richardkrebs earlier in this thread to remove the patented decoupled counterweight system from the ET2 - this suggestion defies physics, ignores Bruces extensive testing results and audibly degrades the sound as has been widely proven.

  

Thread Drive
For those interested in thread drive I own and have owned both a Final Audio VTT1 thread drive and the Platine Verdier referred to above. My understanding from Final Audio's point of view is that the optimum pulley profile should be hemispherical concave for thread drive.

I found that the Final and Verdier incompatible as far as optimum thread selection. For the Final Audio I use a very fine braided suture silk thread from Davis & Geck - this has high tensile strength and good grip. This thread  sounded awful on the Verdier. The Platine Verdier sounded much better with a larger diameter softer silk/linen thread. As an aside the rubber belt option for the Verdier is appalling- you can see the rubber belt drifting up and down the platter due to the fact that the rubber belt has large variations in its "round" profile. 

Fwiw the Final Audio has an audibly superior motor drive system to the Verdier, much quieter, less noise and vastly superior in speed accuracy. I was easily able to prove this by running the Verdier Platter from the Final Audio motor drive. In the end I gave up on the Verdier, since the Final Audio is so much better the Verdier never got used.
 

  

Hi Chris,

Had to break in here to adamantly endorse your statement:

"The most resonance can be heard in the bass.You need to get the bass right in any room."

This includes vibration-reduction to/from components. Working on that right now. Big gains with minimal investment.

Best to you Chris,
Dave 
 

Hi Nikola.

the other thing I want to mention is that pivot arms produce more resonance at the bearing. Bruce has actually measured this and documented it in the manual.

Now I base this on my personal experiences as a music lover / sometimes audiophile :^)

The most resonance can be heard in the bass.You need to get the bass right in any room. If someone wants to call this resonance - distortion - feel free. Air Bearing linear trackers produce less distortion - less resonance.

This means the overall room setup like speaker placement used, may need to change to satisfy some, because you are dealing with less distortion. Those that make comparisons and never move their speakers to accommodate the two pivot and air bearing designs, are not comparing properly. This can prove very difficult in some rooms if the speakers weigh 200 lbs. Especially with older audiophiles who have moved their final speaker to its resting place, and now focus only on the small components/cabling, etc....

Everything in audio is fixable with an understanding of ones’s overall room setup. Those on the forums especially Professionals that say the bass lacks on an air bearing - they are not focused on the overall room setup.

fwiw

I shared private emails with your friend Daniel. Dertonarm. He was very helpful when I was researching the Verdier. When I changed the topic to the ET2 - as you know he owned many tonearms, I discovered his preference was to go against the ET2 manual instructions and place as much weight as possible, close to the air bearing spindle. With the ET2 stock design - this produces the most resonance, and the most ill defined bass in my rooms. If you see him remind him of our conversation.

Cheers Chris

Hi Chris,

It only happens rarely.  Please don't tell Bruce!  lol

Best to you Chris,
Dave

Hi Dave

Fixing the Level situation with a turntable design like the TNT is doable.
If the ET2 air bearing design (very smooth) raises the bar, and forces an owner to take notice and become more anal about leveling their TT (any TT). Then I say so be it, because in the end it means better health for the records and the cartridge.

Unfortunately I am not aware of any " pill " for groove anxiety.

Cheers Chris

****It is replaced by music that flows like water.****

That is a great description of the most musically distinguishing characteristic of the ET-2 compared to the pivoting arms that I have used.  There is a rhythmic smoothness that is very natural and gives music the feeling of not being constrained ...like water.  Every piece of equipment throws logs across the stream; the ET2 seems to do it a lot less than most.  Love the arm.

Hi Chris,

Anyone who has let their ET Two-equipped table go off-level knows exactly what you are describing with the term "groove anxiety". 

As we have discussed before, my TNT's VPI Firestone bladders leak and are a PITA to refill/recalibrate, so I have to admit to "hoping for the best" on occasion (laziness).  It usually lasts for around one cut before the pump comes out.

Best to you Chris,
Dave   

Hi Nikola

But why is nobody able

to hear the ''perfect sound'' without any distortion at those ''zero

points'' at which there is no ''tracking error'' and which provide the

strongest argument for this ET- 2 of yours?

not sure what you mean by perfect sound, but based on my experiences with my pivot arms.....

Tracking error is one problem. The bigger problem is Antiskating and the reason we need it.
  
Because the pivot arm even though it is tangent at those two points - still wants to shoot to the spindle, while the antiskating is pushing it back. There is a tug of war going on here, and its intensity varies based on the groove modulations. I sense "groove anxiety"  by what I hear.    8^0 

It's not until you hear your familiar music on a well set up Linear tracker that you realize this groove anxiety is even going on with the pivot arm. It is replaced by music that flows like water. More definition, soundstage (all those audiophile terms)

When you remove this distortion, and hear it on a familiar album, one becomes aware of it. Once aware of it ....you tend to focus on it.  I am unfortunately anal that way. We have discussed this already before, and I used the analogy of buying a car whose front right tire is always low. That's what my pivot arms remind me of.  

Just some thoughts, other owners of "any" Linear trackers are welcome to add their thoughts good or bad. 

so
Does a dealer audio store, salon, retail outlet even exist today, anywhere in the world that has two setups that can demonstrate the above ?  I don't frequent them anymore so don't know.  

Cheers Chris 

Strangely, I have had no issues with longevity of the common sewing thread I first used nor with the floss.

Dave that silk thread I referenced in the previous post is pretty fragile. Easily torn apart by hand.  

Just thinking out loud here ...

If one was in "Audiophile Mode"........meaning experimentation mode :^)
One could try that silk thread - a single strand only - with a later TNT motor/pulley/platter/bearing design.  If it lasts a long time, then based on my experiences in my room, I would say the later TNT version designs would indeed be better than the earlier versions. 

Cheers Chris

Hi Chris,

I don’t doubt (at all) your experiences with your TNT nor with your Verdier and I agree that I am working against what was envisioned by HW in the TNT’s original design. He did, however, move away from the complex pulley system with the later TNT/HRX models. He also switched to an inverted bearing, perhaps to better deal with the increased side-loading force?

Strangely, I have had no issues with longevity of the common sewing thread I first used nor with the floss. The latter has lasted seemingly indefinitely, even with extended periods of heavy rotation.

I also have no doubt that there are better tables out there than the TNT, yet I am satisfied with my TNT’s sound in its current modded form and feel that it still is a superb foundation for the ET Two.

Best to you as always Chris,
Dave