brownsfan or anyone, I would be interested in the Duelund 12ga wire. Is anyone fairly certain it is actually being developed and does anyone have any idea when it may be released?
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geoch, the Belden 1800F does indeed look like a good cable. The "Foam High Density Polyethylene" is one of my preferred dielectrics and IMO better sounding than Teflon, which I sometimes hear as a shrill artifact. Also the thicker foamed material provides increased and consistent separation between the conductors, which is a good thing for interconnects. I am not surprised this cable is a consistently strong performer. BTW, my comment on increasing runs of the WE wire was for speaker cables only. The quad, cross-connected geometry reduces inductance. My multi-run ICs are a different animal since those wires are machine-braided. Since my system is all balanced, I do not use RCA connectors anywhere and my preference is for the Furutech 601/602(G) connectors. |
Dear mac48025 & mitch2, In case of speaker cables, I agree with doubling runs (although I have a 12w SET 300B ) The best Belden ever produced is 1800F You can try it with: http://www.ab-system.hk/index.php?route=product/product&path=80&product_id=165 or : http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/connecteurs-fiches-rca/ramm-audio-rca-plug-silver-rhodium-plated-tellu... or : http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/rca-plugs/ramm-audio-rca-plug-gold-plated-tellurium-copper-o-10mm-set-... (in order to avoid soldering) I think it is very important to not abuse the pF value of an IC by adding more conductors. The 1800F is a pre-made cable ready for use, has the lowest capacitance, it is shielded, and so ridiculously cheap, that invite you to end them with the best available plugs. Cheap to the point that makes the DIY experiment pointless, with cotton, silk, beeswax and all the hard work. I’ve spend for the best RCA plug instead and worth it. I have made ICs with Belden 1800F using : KLEI absolute harmony, WBT nextgen 0110cu, WBT nextgen 0102ag & 0110ag and all these bested everything upstream audio $$$$ We all have witnessed system compatibility. Interconnects particularly have strong favors. My last commercially available was the VDH "The mountain" paired with "The cloud" speaker cable and while it was a revelation on most systems, on flea watt SET were a big disaster . And here comes the interest point of concern, the one that makes me very suspicious about the high-end society of ICs & SCs : How is it possible this Belden 1800F to permanently performs no matter the components character situation, in between anything, in every system of any origin ? This attitude has also the Duelund DCA-16GA as (naked) speaker cable. I don’t claim these are the best-ever wires but at least they are studio quality and you can use them in order to address any unwanted behavior of your system. Then you can proceed to taylor the sound by changing things to the right direction. Best to you |
Here is the wire I would like to try as interconnect cable; http://www.partsconnexion.com/product31386.html
I will make a set and compare to my current ICs, which are multiple strands (4 per side) of high purity, solid-core, small-gauge (28awg) copper in cotton, and which are the best-sounding ICs I have owned out of many. Also awaiting the anticipated Duelund 12 awg tinned copper in cotton, which I will twist as a quad and cross-connect with two runs per side for speaker cables. Don't buy into some of the the urban myths, such as the only way the Duelund 16 awg wire sounds good is as single runs. Maybe on low-powered SET but more wire works better on both of my high-powered amplifiers. Have had great success using two runs per side of cross-connected, 16 and 14 awg WE wire, which provides between 13 and 11 awg per pole. Currently using two twisted pairs of WE 10 awg to bi-wire each speaker and it sounds very good. I also made two sets of the Belden 8402 IC cables many have raved over, and I thought they sounded pretty bad compared to the ICs described above. There is not just one way to do something and the same thing is not always going to sound the same in different systems and to folks with different listening preferences. When "reviewers" start telling folks there is only one way to do something, I become immediately skeptical. |
I had been using Belden 8402 interconnects and WE 14ga ( 16 ga was no longer available) speaker wire and was very happy with it until getting a Decware Zen Torii mkIV amp and the sound seemed harsh and "off". I switched to Mapleshade Double Helix Plus speaker and their transparency was a much better match with the Torii, yet something still wasn't right so I replaced the Belden 8402's with Coincident Statement interconnects and now the sound was too clinical for my liking. Out with the Mapleshade speaker cable and in with the Duelund DTC 16 ( which I prefer over the WE 14g I had) and voila......a more organic and natural sound to balance the very transparent Torii amp and Coincident interconnects. Obviously results are very system/room/listener preference dependent but one can't go wrong with at least starting out with Belden 8402 interconnects and Duelund DTC 16 speaker wire....they are practically free when compared to many high end equivalents! This hobby can become expensive easily enough, it's nice finding excellent products at such reasonable prices. |
gnostalgick, I understand Duelund is working on a 12 G wire that may be more suitable for longer lengths. I have been doing some work on my music room and needed 25 ft to allow flexibility in placement of the rack. I picked up 50 ft of Beldon 5T00UP for about $1/ft. It is 10 G wire. Certainly it is nothing fancy, but I am amazed how good it is. I do not detect any issues with respect to tonal aberrations, and it is quite grain free. It is likely when I get done with the room I am going to need at least 18 ft lengths of cable, and as happy as I am with the cheap Beldon, it is going to be really hard to justify anything too expensive. The Beldon is a cheap experiment. You might want to give it a try. It took about 3-4 days to get it from Blue Jeans Cable. |
Everyone wants the best but, there must be a limit about the asking price. I don’t mean to accuse any brand’s product about it’s asking price, but ---------------------I can easily accuse me for the expense. When one locates a product which excels in value/money, its time for us to think if IT IS GOOD ENOUGH and maybe if we can take a break here. We can rewire the internal hook-up wire of phono/pre/power with high purity silver, we can rework with oil caps & z-foil resistors, exotic NOS tubes, change for a much better cartridge or whatever. It is not the end & all a pair of speaker cables. So, I can’t help but thinking that if the D is close to HF, then together with all of the major upgrades mentioned, the outcome could be much closer if not any better yet. I think the jump from D to HF can’t proportionately competes with a purchase of a decent source or a substitute elsewhere in the chain where needed. Yesterday someone founds graphene, this time HF patented mag wave guides, tomorrow they should give us another revolution that works even better. Imagine if all investors could work synergistically in a single speaker cable. Unfortunately industry competition keeps the wheels turning and the plethora of ideas to solve a single problem, rarely concur. The most successful of them are not exactly available once they carry a five figure price. The remaining question : When a product is GOOD ENOUGH for us? |
Great to hear Rob and Mario! I compared the WE16ga to my Duelund 2.0 and preferred the 2.0 overall and in my case but the WE16ga has it's strengths and for the money... I have a second system with a bit of a dead midrange which the WE16ga or now the Duelund will be just what is needed. Excellent midrange but it is is telephone cable! :) I have used and have the original copper Duelund which was not as good as the Silver. |
Currently using the Dueland in 2 applications: 1.) As speaker cable and internally re-wired my back loaded Frugelhorn XL's, and as interconnects (2pairs w/switchcraft RCA connectors) alternating between a Fisher 500-B and a Dynaco ST-70/PAS-3 2.) As speaker cable between my Devore Fidelity Gibbon 8's and Mcintosh MC-30's The cable is astonishingly good for the price! It smells a little funny when you pull it out of the package from the oil but dissipates quickly. I also own and used the famed Western Electric cable this cable is based on and I can say with certainty that I prefer the Dueland. Jeff's Place is a great resource in regards to this cable and choice vintage gear. Hope this helps some. -Mario |
Salectric has his own experience to go on which is opposite my experience, Yazaki-san, Jeff Day, Jim Simth of "Bettter Sound" now Jack Roberts (the Beatnik) amongst others. As we always say, YMMV. I've used Wire World Eclipse and in my system it does not do for my system what it does do in Salectric's system. I think Jack Roberts put it succinctly, $16,000 High Fidelity speaker wire or low hundreds for DCA Duelund, which Jack thinks is better sounding. Only one way to find out, try and compare. You make the decision. I've made my decision. I appreciate what Duelund has done; Big Bang for the buck speaker cable that will compete with anything out there and might just be better in your rig. Certain worth the try-out at its low cost. Best, Rob |
Salectric posted an interesting perspective on the Duelund and WE16a wire on the Audio asylum cable forum. He put into words how I came to altimately feel about the sound of the WE16 speaker wire and Belden ICs. They are definitely worth a try since they are inexpensive. As mtbrider mentioned there are a few threads on the AA cable forum. |
pc123v, The Belden 8402 ICs are a great match for both WE16ga or Duelund DCA16ga. You can read about them about them at Jeff Day's Blog, jeffsplace.me or at boppinwiththebeatnik.com from Jack Roberts. I agree with their thoughts on the WE16ga and/or Duelund16ga. Both Jack and Jeff are professional reviewers. I am not; but I am considering writing a review here on Audiogon. Just have to find some time. Another source/voice you should listen to is what Yazaki-san the great Japanese designer of SPEC/mod maven of many, many, significant amps and speakers have to say about WE16ga and Belden 8402 among other audio topics. It is Yazaki-san who brought the WE16ga/Belden 8402 combo to Jeff Day's attention. You can read about this stuff at Positive Feedback online. I've been around this hobby for many years, both as a pro musician and the audio world for too many years and have listened to cheap cables to multi-thousands of dollar cables. yMMV, but the owner of Duelund has made a serious assault on the state-of-the-art in speaker cable design. So simple, so innovative, so inexpensive, that sound like "Real Music" as Yazaki-san likes to say. Best, Rob |
The Beatnik says: "Well yestday afternoon I broke down and put the High Fidelity UR speaker wires back in the system. I was surprised how similar they sound, but I definitely prefer the Duelund. The High Fidelity UR has a quieter background, there is a little more separation between instruments and voices, there was slightly more detail and the bottom end was tighter and deeper. In the upper bass through the upper midrange the Duelund was simply more alive, you can hear more energy, more overtones from both instruments and voices, drums sound more like real drums. The soundstage may not be quite as wide but it is more three dimensional and much more believable. When it comes to which one makes you want to listen longer there is no contest, the Duelund is simply more emotional involving and sounds more like you are there. By the way 3 meters of the UR cost $16,500 and 3 meters of Duelund cost $120. That means the Duelund is 1,350 times less expensive. Amazing I’m expecting the Belden interconnects today. l'll attempt to find the link. Best, Rob |
The Dueland DCA16ga tops the WE16ga. Read what Jack Roberts (the Beatnik) of Dagogo has to say, basically, he like likes them better than the Hi Fidelity top of the line cables at $11,000 to $16,000. Or you can read about them at Jeff Day's Blog, jeffsplace.me to read a number of comments by Jeff, as well as his readers. I have several pairs playing now between the main rig, DeVore 0/96, Coincident Dynamo 34SE Mark II as well as Harbeth Super HL5 and Leben CS600, as well as rotating in Tekton Lore or Mini-Lore. Best speaker cables I have heard in my systems. Best, Rob |