2. analog
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Does removing anti-skating really improve sound?

I know this topic has been discussed here before, but wanted to see if others have the same experience as me. After removing the fishing line dangling weight from my tonearm I’m convinced my bass and soundstage has opened up. I doing very careful listening with headphones and don’t hear any distortion or treble harshness. So why use anti-skating at all? Even during deep bass/ loud passages no skipping of tracks. Any thoughts from all the analog gurus out there?
tubelvr1

Showing 10 responses by cleeds

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cleeds
5,657 posts
 
lewm
... The skating force is generated by the friction of the stylus in the groove ...
This is mistaken. While stylus shape can influence skating force, the actual cause of the force is the pickup arm offset. That's why true linear tracking arms have no skating force. There are also a few pivoted arms that have no offset; they also have no skating force.
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cleeds
5,657 posts
 
lewm
... in real life the cause of the skating force is friction in the groove ...
We have been down this road before and you are mistaken. Clearly, you are confusing cause and effect.

Consider a properly aligned true, tangential, straight-line tracking pickup arm. Its stylus has friction in the groove, just as a pivoted arm. But the straight-line tracker is not subject to skating force. The reason for that is that the real cause of skating force is the offset of a conventional overhung pivoted arm. A consequence of that offset is indeed friction created by the stylus in the groove. But again, that’s an effect - and not the cause - of skating force.

Consider also that the same exact cartridge will have different skating forces if installed in two substantially different pickup arms. That’s because the greatest factor in generating skating force is the arm, not the stylus - although different stylus shapes will result in different skating forces.
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cleeds
5,657 posts
 
larryi
This issue has been raised with a number of cartridge manufacturers and I don't know of any who endorse not using anti-skating.
VPI is not an advocate for the use of anti-skating.
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cleeds
5,657 posts
 
lewm
... Of course headshell offset angle and other reasons for lack of tangency of the cantilever to the groove are what results in the skating force ...
Exactly, and that's been my point. We're much more in agreement here than not.

but there would be no FORCE, with a capital F, without the need to oppose the force of friction between stylus tip and groove
Yes, friction is a factor with LP playback and, for that matter, everything else that has moving parts. That doesn't mean friction is the cause of skating force, and you do seem to understand that. So there's no reason to continue this little debate.

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cleeds
5,657 posts
 
lewm
Tilting the turntable is about the same as hanging an anti-skate weight on a string, to pull the tonearm toward the spindle ... You’d have to tilt the TT very precisely toward the spindle, and you’d be guessing at the resulting anti-skate force.
No, this is mistaken. If you tilt the turntable towards the spindle, you’re not creating an anti-skating force at all. Rather, you’re adding to the existing skating force.

I do agree with @lewm that tilting a turntable to apply anti-skate doesn’t sound like good idea. It raises possible wear and other issues, and wouldn’t be as precise as a good pickup arm’s anti-skate mechanism.
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cleeds
5,657 posts
 
millercarbon
Actually since the arm pivots then the tilt angle would have to be constantly adjusted during play. Since the tilt angle would need to be roughly perpendicular to the cartridge, and since no cartridge alignments result in it being perfectly tangent except at two points, then it would hardly ever be tilted exactly at the spindle. So you're both wrong! lol!
You might want to read this thread more carefully. As @lewm stated, neither he nor I have suggested this method at all. In fact, we've discouraged it.
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cleeds
5,657 posts
 
mijostyn
If removing anti skating makes a vinyl playback system sound better then the setup is off somewhere.
That is not a universal truth. Kindly note that the manufacturers of some pivoted arms do not include antiskate on their arms. Of those that do, some recommend against using it.

I've always found properly adjusted antiskate to be useful, btw.
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cleeds
5,657 posts
 
mijostyn
... Never Trust Your Ears. The problem with ears is that they are connected to a brain ...
We'll have to disagree on this. I consider the brain an advantage, not a disadvantage. The ears and brain work in tandem.
Always follow the science when you have it ...
And for that, you need a brain.
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cleeds
5,657 posts
 
rauliruegas
Yes but the problem word in that statement is: " correctly " and till today exist no single method/mechanism to set up " correctly ".
That's really not quite true. Just because something can't be executed perfectly doesn't mean that it can't be done; there's no reason to let perfection be the enemy of the good. In engineering, everything has a tolerance, and the same is true of anti-skate. There's no reason not to use anti-skate just because you aren't certain that a given setting is "perfect."
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cleeds
5,657 posts
 
mijostyn
Fortunately distortion is easy to hear because it is so dissonant, sort of like looking for an elephant in a garage full of cars.
That is completely mistaken. Some distortion is not all "dissonant," but just the opposite: it’s euphonic.
I am an MD and can guarantee you I know a lot more about the brain than you do. You are not your brain.
Beware the audio guru.

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