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Does it make sense to use 6k$ Nos tube with 5K$ tube amplifier?

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=VjN1SHRiUWYxUGd0dk5qWTVQOEJNNXdMaEZ0RGZB

Yesterday I inserted original Western Electric 300B made in 1930’s to Line Magnetic 508 amplifier.

After I got LM 508 on Aug 2018 and I had done lot of tube rolling.

Now I have Psavne Acme 805, 1944 Sylvania vt231(6SN7), Mullard ECC85(6SL7) and Synergistic Blue power cable and fuse with it.

Isoacoustics Orea Bordeaux foot is also under LM 508.


I had been hesitant to try my original Western Electric 300B with LM 508 amplifier.

After paying 3k$ for pair 17 years ago, I had run 10K hours on the tube with Silbatone 300B 8W SET amplifier.

It still sound fine with 5K - 10K hours more remaining.



But it is hard to get good NOS Western Electric 300B tube anymore and it get more expensive ( more than 6K for pair now).


I had tried Sophia Carbon Plate 300B and Shuguang Treasure 300B on LM 508.

With Sophia Carbon Plate, I got slightly deeper bass with more refined treble.

With Shuguang Treasure, I got more details and tight and deeper bass with wider soundstage.


Now with original Western Electric 300B, I got much more and cleaner details and tighter bass with transparent and wider and deeper soundstage.


The most notable difference is more details and transparent soundstage.

I had not expected that much improvement with original Western Electric 300B.

After going back to Sophia Carbon Plate, it sound warm but boring with less details and less transparent sound.

Thus I had to go back to original Western Electric 300B.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51X0iE0RA7L.jpg
When I play " Songbird" of Eva Cassidy with original Western Electric 300B, she appears to sing in front of me with spooky presence.

Now I got into trouble.

I do not want to put valuable original Western Electric 300B into LM 508.


20 years ago, replica of Western Electric had been made and I compared it with original Western Electric 300B.

It turned out that replica was no match to original Western Electric 300B.

Replica had crude and less details and narrower soundstage.


Although they claim to make another replica of Western Electric 300B, I do not have much expectation from my previous experience.

I placed order of Psavne Acme 300B tube yesterday which cost me 900$.

Psavne Acme 805 is the best new production tube with natural details and transparent soundstage.

I do not expect Acme 300B to be better than original Western Electric 300B.

But if Acme 300B is 90% as good as original Western Electric 300B, then I will use it with LM 508.

Replica of Western Electric 300B made 20 years ago was only 70% as good as original Western Electric 300B
shkong78

Showing 9 responses by larryi

larryi
4,326 posts
 
The original WE300B's last a VERY long time in amps designed to run that particular tube.  I would check to make sure the LM amp is not running the tube hot like many current amps do to extract that little bit of extra power.  I agree that original, engraved base 300B's are very good tubes.  I think they run a bit more than $6,000 a pair for used tubes that still test strong.  The 300A's are now more than $15,000 a pair.  A local dealer uses engraved base 300B's in several amps that he builds and sells (in mostly pushpull amps, so this means quads of these tubes), and is currently looking for a couple of 300A's to complete a quad for a very special customer.  

I would look at the new Western Electric 300B's coming on the market that are being built using the old machinery and tooling from Western Electric.  These are probably going to be like the 1990's Western Electric tubes--decent, if not quite as good as the originals.  I have not listened to Taketsuke 300B's from Japan, but, they are reported to be good replicas of original 300B's.  I heard, and liked, the Kron version of 300B's, but, they are different in sound from typical 300B's so some may not like them (leaner, more dynamic sounding than typical 300B's).  

If these seems really crazy, it is, but not as crazy as a tube that is similar to the 300A or 300B, which is the Western Electric 252.  This same dealer has a 59B amp that runs those tubes in pushpull.  The tubes really don't have a price on them because there is no market for them, but, he turned down an offer of $30,000 for the pair.
larryi
4,326 posts
 
The new reissue of the Western Electric tube has not been on the market long enough to establish its quality and reliability.  The good news is that the company not only bought the trademark for Western Electric, they also bought the tube making gear and already built parts, so if we are lucky, their tubes will be like the 1990's reissued tubes.  I thought those reissued tubes were quite good-decent sounding and very reliable (only quality control issue I knew of was that some glass envelops became unglued from the tube base (relatively easy to fix if wires remained intact). 

It would also be nice if they got around to reissuing other WE tube types. How about new 310, 348, 349 and 350 tubes?
larryi
4,326 posts
 
I don't know if it is that good an idea to go swapping tubes in and out for special occasions vs. regular listening.  Tube sockets have a somewhat limited life, as far as insertions and removals, so frequent swapping means shortening the useful life of the socket.  An old timer said that beyond thirty cycles, most tube sockets become dicey.

I agree with the mention above about EML XLS 300B tubes.  Those are nice tubes, albeit not that cheap.
larryi
4,326 posts
 
I am sure fancy sockets are available, but, I know builders who are particular about the sockets they like and the ones they like are vintage sockets.  The sockets can be tightened up, but they supposedly don't stand up to frequent re-tensioning.  Also, not everyone is up to doing socket replacement.  I know I would be less than thrilled to do that with my Audio Note Kageki because the sockets are on the circuit board.

I also don't like the fact that triodes like the 300B and 2a3 have four pins and no center key, so it actually is possible to jam them in the wrong way; the pins vary in size, but, that is really not enough to prevent an accident.  With all the great minds at Western Electric, why didn't they think of putting the pins in a different pattern, like a trapezoid, where incorrect insertion is impossible.
larryi
4,326 posts
 
I suspect you were not as determined to screw up as some of us are.  At a local shop that employs part-time high school students, one such employee managed to insert one of a "matched pair" of Western Electric 300B's the wrong way, the result being a no longer matched pair and almost ceaseless teasing of that employee (amusing because he is otherwise super bright and has gone on to designing and building quite a number of decent amps, linestages, headphone amps and DACs).   
larryi
4,326 posts
 
I don't quite know what point is being made, but, quoting a fictional character as evidence that some people are delusional is quite amusing. 

Also, what is wrong with being deluded into being happy about a purchase choice?  To also utilize a pop fiction reference: I don't see anything wrong with taking the blue pill.
larryi
4,326 posts
 
shkong78,

Any particular WE horn system?  A local dealer has assembled systems with 12, 13, 15, 22 horns and various compression drivers, like the WE-555 (field coil and permanent magnet versions), and he has a gigantic 16A horn (not for sale) which utilizes two 555 drivers per speaker (one version of this horn utilizes four 555's per speaker, but, I've never seen or heard this version).  He also utilizes G.I.P. replica field coil compression drivers and their replica field coil woofers and 597 tweeter.  All of this is great sounding stuff.

I also like much more modestly sized systems utilizing vintage and replica drivers and horns.  My favorite compression driver is the Western Electric 713b which has a phenolic diaphragm.  It is, to me, the most natural sounding, detailed, yet smooth sounding driver.  But, it does not have as extended a frequency range as other Western Electric drivers and it is harder to get the crossover right because it is a 4 ohm driver.  It works well in smaller systems that are not called upon to deliver extremely high volume levels.  Some of the Western Electric field coil woofers sound very good, but, for my personal "dream" system, I might go with the Jensen/ERPI M-10 field coil woofer.  My ideal tweeter is the 597.  My dealer has actually assembled two systems using G.I.P.'s jazzed up version of the 597 tweeter that sells for $58,000 a pair; I would settle for the "cheaper" replica or an original WE 597. 

For the power supply for field coils, I was surprised to hear how much better a Tungar tube power supply sounds as compared to solid state power supplies for the midrange compression drivers.  My dealer says that the difference is smaller for tweeter and woofer power supplies.

Of course, amplification should be Western Electric or something comparable.  I am happy with my sort of replica 133a amp (re-built, mostly vintage parts, including the correct Western Electric input and output transformers).  
larryi
4,326 posts
 
Yes, it is the astounding dynamics of horn systems that instantly hooked me.  They sound so alive even when playing at very modest levels.  To me, the other significant advantage of these systems is their high efficiency which allows one to use the very best sounding amplifiers; to me the best amplifiers are low-powered amps, particularly low-powered tube single-ended and pushpull amps.  

You don't have to spend $300k to get great horn system sound.  There are much cheaper alternatives that might still deliver enough of what you are looking for in a system.  

As for your LM amp, I would use whatever tube combination sounds the best, and not worry about whether the tubes are "too good" for the amp.  Why shouldn't you treat yourself to the best sound with what you got?  I've heard many "modest" amps transformed into something else by replacing the manufacturer-supplied tubes with something better.  For example, the Cary 300b SEI amp is something quite special with the reissue Western Electric 300b tube.
larryi
4,326 posts
 
Thomas, 

Do you have any idea about how the Acme 300B's differ from the Psvane 300B's that Audio Note (uk) will be selling?  My understanding is that the Audio Note tubes have molybdenum plates.  I don't know if they are Audio Note exclusives.  What I do know is that Peter Qvortrop, the head of Audio Note is a tube expert and a collector of tubes; if he likes something, they are probably very good.  
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