@mahgister,
Wrote,
But we listen and tweak the WHOLE system not the parts separately.
Yes, I completely concur that ultimately this is true. But to reach this stage (Whole system) an audio system has to constructed and this is usually done via acquiring components piece by piece.
So in essence each audio component/product is individually judged or scrutinize before buying and adding to one’s audio system.
I believe that very few people buy a complete system consisting of speakers, source,cables and electronics in a single step.
Once all pieces of the audio system are in place then the tweaking and fine tuning as a whole can be addressed and strategically implemented. This would include room acoustic considerations as needed.
Charles |
@detch2
"It is almost impossible to extract the sound of a DAC from other things in trade show or dealer. The speakers and room dominate the sound. The comparison you did at a friends, different DACs, same systems is the best way to go. ",
Agree, but it is an impossible task to hear "every" audio product in your own or very familiar audio system. That’s why audio shows exist (And dealer showrooms). they have limitations but are better than no listenig exposure at all. Attending C.E.S AXPONA, RMAF etc. has been very informative and worthwhile for me. Manufacturers want you to hear their products. Otherwise they all would just do a silent static display.
You can often get a pretty good general impression of components/speakers in show and showroom environments. At least that’s been my experience over the years.
Charles |
Hi @dletch2,
Okay, now I understand your reference point. We will respectfully disagree. Each of these DACs has their own sonic character and aren’t in my opinion "neutral" and bereft of sonic signatures.
Benchmark, I’ve heard only under show conditions on 3 seperate occasions. However each listening session I found the sound to be consistently lean and analytical. This DAC is often touted as the paragon of neutrality (With the prerequisite stellar measurements). I just hear it differently. Some will agree with me and some will not.
Same type sound quality with the Chord Dave(Haven’t heard the Hugo or Qutest). Mola Mola heard twice under show conditions (With other Mola Mola components). My listening impression was dry, clinical and analytical.
Heard the stock Oppo in a friend’s audio system compared to a Modwright version modified utilizing tubes. His modifiefded DAC was substantially more natural sounding and realistic. Stock Oppo was 2 dimensional, leaner and lacked harmonic overtone richness.
Heard the Holo Spring DAC (Loaned to me) in my system. Actually pretty good sounding I thought. In direct comparison to a Yamamoto YDA-1a DAC the latter was more open, dynamic and had fuller tone and body of human voice and instruments. Definitely more emotionally engaging presentation.
I haven’t heard the RME DAC.
There will be no consensus with my listening impressions. Individuals hear and perceive differently. No getting around this fact.
What some listeners interpret and declare to be accurate, neutral, clean, lacking an audible signature is sterile, dry, clinical and lacking musical connection to others.
What some listeners perceive as full bodied, tonally rich, authentic reproduction of timbre, harmonic overtones vivid instrumental preservation is to others simply euphonic/pleasing colorations. "Never the twain shall meet".
Two polar ends of listening perception and ultimately preference.
I recognized this long ago and happily accept it for what it is.
Accurate/neutral crowd versus the organic/natural crowd. I firmly reside in the latter. High End audio accommodates (Plenty of choices for either crowd) both with welcome arms 😊.
Charles
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"This is not a whether it is better or not decision, it is a whether you like it or not". Per dletch2.
Agree 100%. Who would buy any audio product (with the purpose /intent of enjoying your music) if you didn’t like the sound it reproduces. That would make absolutely no sense. Measurements of a product are meaningless if you don’t enjoy the listening experience it provides.
Charles |
@jjss49 and mahgister, thank you and I appreciate your gracious comments.
@dletch2,
You are correct, it is not the 1970-1980s. Science and technology have advanced significantly since then. Yet discovery and rigorous research continue to reveal ever more about human physiology and function.
My point in the post above is acknowledging there are still things that lie outside our complete understanding and explanation as it pertains to auditory processing pathways.
I’m unaware of any neurologist or neuroscientist who’d say every aspect of human hearing is fully understood. Far beyond the 1980s level of comprehension yet still unable to account for what humans are capable of hearing by supporting /certifying measurement. I wholeheartedly agree that much can be measured but that’s different from everything can be measured in this regard.
Could you provide a short list of the DACs you are familiar with that lack any sonic signature (As you wrote, Not to have a sound)? I would really appreciate that.
Charles
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Understood,
Some listeners will say they can not hear a difference, with the same DACs other listeners can easily perceive sonic differences. This shouldn’t be surprising as a fairly wide spectrum exists as to what people are able to detect and distinguish. Measurements at this stage of development can't account for all that the ear-brain neurologic pathway can decipher and process.
Charles |
@melvinjones,
Precisely!
There's no neutral audio device. If a tube is a so called "tone control" so is a transistor. Just different versions of distortion. The idea that solid state is the default neutral choice is not logical. Listen to a half dozen solid state DACs and each is different sonically from another. Same outcome with tube DACs in the same scenario.
Charles |
@stibin,
You can have an all tube audio signal path or an all transitor audio signal path and be happy with either. Just depends on what type of sonic presentation you are seeking. Within the realm of tubes there’s very noticeable variation in what you’ll hear. So called "tubey" to not so "tubey".
For example an Audio Research component using 6H30P tubes would sound different from another brand’s tube component using a 6SN7 or a 12AT7. So even though utilizing tubes you’d still hear a different signature. Same would be true for mixing different transistors. Krell doesn’t sound like Jeff Rowland even though both are solid state.
You say that you are a newbie, no problem you’ll learn to appreciate the many variables that factor into High End audio. We all continue learn as we gain experience along the way.
Charles |
Hi @stibin,
You wrote,
I have the Musical Paradise MP701 mkII and it does have significant sound improvement on my system.
That just confirms my position that tube DACs can sound terrific. If you decide to move on from a tube DAC you'll be able to find a transistor DAC that will sound terrific as well. Excellent choices in both camps.
Charles |
This is why when discussing an audio product the final arbiter is "how does it sound" and do I like it. Tube colorations? Sure, either that or one may prefer transistor coloration. Both active devices have their inherent distortion profile and character. Either one used thoughtfully in a well designed analogue output stage of a DAC can be successful. The listener decides which device distortion characteristics they are more pleased with.
Charles |
@stibin,
I’ve heard a number of tube DACs and they can range from just okay to superb, same exact experience with transistor DACs. The sound quality will be determined by the talent of the builder, design, part quality, attention to detail and implementation.
Musical Paradise has earned a good word of mouth reputation. I would seek clarification in regard to the return policy. If you find it satisfactory I’d get it and judge it based on its sound quality in your system. This the only way to really sort it out. The general dismissal of a DAC with with tube output stage seems illogical and without merit. Execution of the product is the key.
Charles |
