Jimateo, I gotta agree with Hdm.
I've tried to convince many in another forum, but with little luck, as many are very headstrong about thier (IMO garbage) DIY solutions of Dawn Dishwashing Fluid, Kodak Photo-Flo, 99% Alcohol, Distilled Water. Then to top it all off, throw all these makeshift chemicals into an inappropriate, unsuitable container.
All the products I mention above have no place on vinyl, but of course, there's the naysayers that the best products made on the market are nothing more than over-hyped snake oil. Trust me, they're only fooling themselves.
High quality cleaning products will insure a proper job is done, and no future damage.
There's tons of information right here in the archives, all you have to do, is a simple search on products like AIVS, Walker Prelude, Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs (Mo-Fi) L'Art Du Son, Buggtussle, etc.
Thanks to certain folks here, and one in particular, I have become a religious AIVS user (Thanks Doug D!) Once you use products like this, your worries, or concerns if you are using the proper products, and treating your vinyl as it should be treated will vanish, and your search for the very best cleaners will end.
I too, use a VPI RCM, and my only regrets were not doing this many years ago. Mark |
I have no problems, but as I say previously, I read your posts "you" provided a link to on the other forum in thier entirety. Thank you for sharing those with all of us here, they clear up, any doubts "which camp" you come from. Mark |
Maclogan-Dopogue,
Not that I have any axe to grind with Harry Wiesfield, but maybe you don't remember a time back, where VPI was selling some really bad funky stuff that coagulated in the bottle, and Harry's-VPI's recommendation, was to throw the mixture in the Fridge. Not that his products still do this, but just an example that even Harry's stuff had issues. No doubt VPI buys from someone else.
To answer your question about do I know what's in the products I use, meaning, do I know what is in AIVS Cleaning products? Yes, I do, I've been told by the owner of the company exactly what is in them, and what isn't in them. I am also aware of the type of Storage vessels that these products are marketed in.
Do I know the exact proprietary formulas, of course I don't, and wouldn't expect sch info from any company. If you were making these products, would you give out your exact formulas?
Sure, DIY can be done right, but I wonder just how much money you would actually save? Do you think AIVS, L'Art Du Son, MFSL/RRL runs to Wally world to buy bottles of Dawn, off the shelf Alcohol, Single Stage Distilled water? to mention a few?
Remember the cost of lab testing, and approval, beta testing, marketing, shipping/handling, packaging, etc, etc, do you think this all comes for free? What about a profit? What is your time worth?
Please do thoroughly explain, and give detailed information about what level of quality chemicals you use in your DIY, I'd like learning. Mark |
Dan_Ed, I welcome Maclogan's comments, and with my participation in this thread, only hope to perhaps help him, make him see another side, rather than alienate him, and make an enemy. Enemies are easy to make, and who needs enemies, in the real world, or online.
And your comments are well taken, and that's exactly why I use either a 3, or 4 step AIVS process to clean all my LP's. None get discriminated against. When my new Mo-Fi Santana's came a month ago, out came the 16.5 an AIVS. The LP's were the ugliesy Mo-Fi's I have in my possession. Looked like somebody walked over them, but they played dead quiet.
My biggest concerns about DIY, is using friendly chemicals, and chemicals, waters that have the lowest solidity content. Mark |
Yes, you are correct Jimateo, you did initate this thread, and sorry that it went off on another tangent.
I will tell you the same as another has mentioned, but in a kinder fashion, to search archives, here, and others, like Audio Asylum, an Audio Karma. The more knowledge you gain, the better armed you will be to ultimately decide what path you choose to take, and what products, whether DIY, or commercial.
Probably nothing is perfect, as vinyl is not a perfect medium, and never will be.
As I think I earlier mentioned, and touched on, the purer, and higher quality-grade ingredients you use will only be a benefit. Naturally, the base ingredient in any cleaner will be water, and if you can acquire water purer than single step distilled, this will be a large help. Places like Nerl sell reagent grade water, and something like 20 liters is only something like $28 shipped. This quality of water will help when rinsing off any cleaners-residues, regardless of who makes them.
From what I understand, alcohols in of themself, don't really do a heck of a lot, as one would think they do, as far as removing certain contaminants. It actually serves more as a surfactant I understand, helping make water "wetter". Many commercial cleaners avoid alcohol as an ingredient.
Again sorry for the "wandering" of your post, and I hope some of what was written here, was of some help, best of luck. Mark |
Hello Dan_Ed/All,
Of course topics such as this have been beaten to death across the internet over the years, and it's an age old battle. I reckon nothing will ever change in regards to this, and the different "camps" as to who's wrong, and who's right.
The issue at hand, is what is actually good enough?
If a person wishes to use Dawn, Windex, 409, Spray+Wash, and the many other off the shelf products, and feel that they accomplish the needed tasks, well then, I reckon that's fine if they're happy.
The questions that arise in my mind, and I'm sure other's minds as well, is the consideration of a product being either too agressive for it's task, or not agressive enough. The correct answer, just like the "Three Bears", is you want a product-products that do the job "juuust right".
One might think "well, if I only use just purified-6 time Distilled Water to clean my records, how can I get into trouble, and I cannot harm my valued records", but the truth is, by not removing dirt, grime, biological contaminants (Molds-Fungus-etc) and then running a Stylus through this mess, one does indeed harm thier Vinyl, as well as placing additional wear on Stylus too. Lastly, and just important, you will not fully achieve extracting every nuance, and sould quality the vinyl is capable of producing.
The choice of course as said earlier, must be each, and every vinyl fan's choice to use what they please.
I would only suggest again for the original poster, as others have suggested, you have gone to the length, and expense of acquiring a great RCM machine, now go the rest of the way, and acquire top quality cleaning brushes, and the highest quality Cleaning Products. You will then see the synergistic match of how they go so well together, and your vinyl will look, and sound the best that they can. You will not regret using high quality trusted cleaners Mark |
Maclogan,
Probably nobody will follow up to your post, or has any interest in your link due to the "heated volatility" that these commercial vs DIY threads produce.
I read the Threads you pointed to in the other forum in its entirety.
Let's bypass the facts that you claim to be a Chemist, and have pretty much proclaimed yourself an authority of what works, what doesn't. And those that use RCM's, and commercial brand cleaners are deluding themselves, and the only thing they have actually succeeding in doing, is making the sellers of these products rich, and nothing more. Let's not for the moment even concentrate on commercial vs DIY cleaners.
As I see it, the original poster in this thread, Jimateo has already got you beat by a considerable margin, by the purchase of a RCM. Coming from a very good mechanical-engineering backgroud, I have absolutely no doubts that a vacuum process to remove whatever fluids you choose, or anyone else chooses to use, will be vastly superior to using towels for removal, no matter how clean, or expensive these products-towels are. He's most certainly got convenience working for him if nothing else.
You could as well, gain the same advantages, but it has to be an individual decision. My only regrets were not purchasing an RCM (VPI 16.5) sooner.
Like driving a car in winter with no heat, of course the car will get you from point A-B. But why suffer?
With that being said, what price, or no price would you place on such a convenience, better cleaning efficiency, better end results?
With my own record collection (700-800 LPs), (which I know is very meager compared to many other vinylphiles), I concluded that I would like to get these LPs all cleaned sometime within this century. If only for convenience alone, I surely didn't wish to slave over a kitchen sink, with such slow methods, to get through my collection.
Again, one doesn't have to fatten someone's bank accounts. I've seen a few very nice DIY RCM's in other forums. With some building skills, and a good working plan, it can be done.
I'm not even going to touch the debate of DIY vs commercial cleaners at this point, even though that was what this Thread was about.
I can only conclude that those who clean thier vinyl, use whatever they feel works best for them, whether due to cost restraints, or whatever other personal reasons. There's no set standard of vinyl playback, they're your records, it's your system, and we should all perhaps for the moment not ultimately forget what this hobby is about, the enjoyment of music. What I may use for my enjoyment, another may find no satisfaction.
Cheers, and happy holidays to all. Mark |
