Direct drive/rim drive/idler drive vs. belt drive?

Jb0194, I think they have advantages if your system will allow them, in controlling warp. Since the platter pad controls the LP's resonance signature, the ring won't do much to help- it will merely insure that the coloration is consistent across the entire surface.

Axel, I regard differences in dynamics as a coloration, just like tonality and soundstage. All are **definitely** aspects of platter pad vinyl resonance control (or lack thereof).

I've been working with a modified form of the old Empire table for some years now. It has a very powerful motor that has a lot of torque, runs at high speed and has a lot of flywheel action. Years ago I ran an electronics service center- while there I service all sorts of tables including the Technics Sl-1100, the SL1200 and the SP-10.

It is my opinion that the drive does not matter as long as it is robust and executed well. Weak drives just don't seem to do it and I have seen very little in the way of servo-controlled belt drives with weak motors that work right.

However, to my ear the platter pad has a far more profound artifact than the drive! Years ago I was lucky enough to obtain a platter pad that was truly neutral- and use it on a variety of 'tables. With it, the SP-10 sounds identical to a stock Empire and any number of older Pioneer belt drives (the platter pad is heavy so 'table needs a robust bearing to support it).

Without maintaining the platter pad's contribution in audition of all these drive systems, a huge variable is introduced that IMO/IME makes it impossible to ascribe a difference properly. The platter pad should reduce resonance in the platter; IOW the resonant signature of the resultant platter cannot be ignored!

Now it might be that someone here has been this careful- has anyone in auditioning all these different tables (Lenco, Technics, Garrard, Micro Seki for example) been able to keep the resonant signature of the various platters constant, as well as the durometer of the platter pad surfaces? If yes- differences might be ascribed to drive. If no- differences are probably not the drive at all, but the platter's resonant signature as the vibrations in the groove are decoded.

What I am saying here is that the needle playing the LP makes a physical sound and vibration that the LP itself reacts to. If the platter does not control that, you have a coloration. IMO/IME, 95% of table differences are this effect.

If a turntable company has succeeded in making several versions of a turntable, essentially with different drives, while at the same time keeping the platter pad and platter signatures exactly the same, I would agree that the differences one heard in them could be ascribed to the drive.

However- the drives themselves require that the platter design be different! Thus I severely doubt that *any* company has demonstrated this successfully.

In working with the Empire into its evolution into our model 208, we found that the platter pad affected the sound, but if you did nothing to control the resonance of the platter itself, you were missing a bet. IOW, although the pad I've been working with is head and shoulders better than anything else I have seen, it still did not control the platter; damping the platter was still a major improvement.

BTW, the platter pad in question was designed and built by Warren Gehl (currently at ARC) about 20 years ago. It was used by SOTA on the first 50 to 75 Cosmos tables, at which time the formula got modified. So an early Cosmos would have some of the same advantages, if you could fix the drive. I use this pad on my personal table only.

I find it astonishing that platter pads have received little or no attention in the last 2 decades, despite the extreme importance they play in controlling vinyl resonance caused by the needle tracking the groove. Resonance control otherwise has been one of the biggest strides in turntable technology over the years- but almost no work on the place where it counts the most.

And for the record, if the mat is too soft, like a rubber mat, dynamics will be suppressed. The interface has to be exact- the pad has to be the same hardness as the vinyl, so that no energy is reflected back to the LP, yet the mat has to immediately absorb the energy. Acrylic mats are too hard, rubber and felt way too soft. Honestly if these things are not sorted out first its almost impossible to tell anything else about the table! My advice is to try it first before you knock it. The only problem is- where do you get a proper mat and for that I have no answer- there isn't one anymore as far as I can tell. That is how bad this situation is- the platter pad is one of the most audible artifacts of a turntable excluding the arm and cartridge, and there are no definitive pads even available.

Warren saw to it that a good number of serious audiophiles in the Twin Cities area had his pad (FWIW he spent about 5 years perfecting it- I personally had about 5 or 6 earlier versions before he got it right). So we have had ample opportunity to compare it on the SP-10, SL1100, Conneseur, Rekokut (idler drive), Empire, SOTA, and the like. FWIW, a salesman at one of the local shops figured out how to install the pad on a vacuum SOTA, which resulted in his getting a job with SOTA. That person was Allen Perkins, and is why the early Cosmos tables featured that pad.

Lew, I myself think that is a good idea. I agree there are a lot of platter pads out there, as Axel says, its just that most of them are a joke. If you are going to make a decent pad, it should use materials science and physics- like understanding how vibration travels through materials.

Keep in mind that the stylus exerts tons of pressure on the LP. Yeah, its only a 1 1/2 -2 grams but the stylus is tiny. The result is that the LP depresses, just like ice on a frozen lake does when a car drives over it (of course, we probably see more of that up here in the frozen wastelands).

So the mat cannot allow the LP to sag- it has to stand up to it. And it has to do that while controlling resonance. That is why this is such a tricky issue- and why so many platter pads are really not even close.

I'm sorry that this pad that I and a few others have is not in production (IMO/IME it was the biggest advance in LP reproduction when it appeared). That it contains lead dust likely has a lot to do with it :)

Warren says he can't get some of the materials anymore. He also said it was very labor intensive- the materials had to be combined in the right order and with correct timing. He used a special oven to cure it. I have seen a few examples come up for sale- the last one I saw went for $1200.00. Based on that I would guess that there is a budget for someone who wanted to get serious about this.

Obviously not every table could manage this thing- it weighs about 5 pounds.

Since there are only a very small number of these made before SOTA got the rights to it, there are only a few people who have heard what it does and how profoundly it affects things. However my point here is not that I have this thing, but what it taught me: that **only** when the platter pad and platter issues are reduced to a common denominator can you have an intelligent conversation about drives. This assumes that the 'table is otherwise on speed and working right, with no 'measurable' speed issues. IOW I suspect that many here are describing other differences and ascribing them to the drive when there are more fundamental issues involved.

I cannot tell you how many times I have seen people come into a room and upon hearing something they like, immediately ascribe it to the speakers, taking nothing else into account. I believe this to be the same phenomena, since I don't know of a decent production platter pad. If someone can point me to a pad that has the exact same hardness as vinyl but it otherwise completely dead, I'll immediately make an exception. Any takers?

Hiho, for the record, the Empire does not go off speed if properly serviced, and can be expected, once serviced, to run for years without further attention. I have seen the motor angle being so poorly set that the belt engages the wrong part of the motor spindle, and I have seen motor spindles so dirty that the diameter was increased. The actual spec of the stock machine is impressive- well within the specs set by the best of the DD machines.

Lew, I don't know all of what Warren put in his mat, but I understand it contains an aluminum disk, and there is a thin Sorbathane layer where the mat meets the platter, so the material is not amorphous.

Although it is by far the best mat that I have heard, it is obvious that it could be a lot better- otherwise damping the platter would not have the rather obvious improvement that it does! OTOH it might be that the best we can hope for is a platter pad that can do what I said- have the hardness of vinyl so maximum vibration transfer without reflection is achieved, and otherwise maximum deadness.

Lew, I would look into the switches used on guitar stomp pedals, see: http://tubesandmore.com/

click on 'Switches & Footswitchboxes', then P-H493

Lew, 5/8" is a pretty big hole. The stomp switches are usually set up for 1/2".

We found that the plinth had a lot of effect too- again, it is a resonant signature, and one unique to each 'table. The more you can reduce this issue (along with tighter coupling between the platter bearing and the tonearm) the less signature the individual machine will display: bass will have more impact, overall greater dynamic impact (more lively, without added brightness), blacker backgrounds... again a lot of the same effects that deadening the platter has.