According to at least 5 threads at www.avsforum.com The 3910 has macro blocking and a lot of QC problems.
I would never have any recent Denon player modded, but especially not the 3910 or the 5900, which I had two of.
The universal to own right now for the absolute best video bar none, whether 480p or hdmi up converted is the Onkyo SP1000/ Integra dps 10.5.
You should see the build on these as compared to Denon.
Onkyo /Integra have a fantastic track record whith QC,and are both rated as being superior for redbook,sa-cd and video over the buggy 3910 and bug plauged 5900.
Buyer beware, and read the dvd forum at www.avsforum.com for comparisons of the Onkyo/Integra universals, and all the complaints about the cheaply built chinese made 3910. |
Bwhite, there are many 3910 threads including the positive ones whith instances of not only macro blocking, but transport problems, refusal to play sa-cd's, or in some cases just some discs ect.
There are many people whith complaints about QC.
The the macro blocking is supposedly not as bad as the 5900, but why have artifacts at all when you can have it all whith the Onkyo/Integra.
I suggest you read through the 6..at least threads on this player and you will realize that there are way too many people having poroblems whith this player overall.
You can also see pictures of macro blocking at avs, which is a whole lot better than somone trying to explain it in words.
I have the Onkyo 1000, and the 480p picture is flawless as far as magnifying artifacts of any kind.
It is the best picture by far I have ever seen on my 110 in dlp projected screen.
Next week when I receive my hdmi/dvi adaptor, I am going to pick up a 3910 for audio and video comparison.
Those that have already compared the Onkyo SP100/Integra DPS 10.5 (Same player) have told me not to bother, but I am going to anyway.
The 1000 has deeper bass, more texture,inner detail and a bigger soundstage than the 5900 whith redbook,the sa-cd playback is slightly better,and the dvd-a is at least equal.
The 1000, is what the 5900 should have been imo, and I finally feel like I have a universal that is worth having modded.
Greg |
Bwhite, you could not be any more wrong, as the macro blocking shows up because of the DCDI chip in the Denon 3910 and 5900....like I said go read up.
The Onkyo is brand new, so that is why there are no modders doing mods yet, but Two that are already looking into it are RAM and EVS.
There is a pro reveiw that has the Onkyo 1000/Integra player as the winner over the 3910/Flagship Marantz and Flagship Pioneer.
The Integra10.5/ Onkyo 1000 thread at avs has comparisons to the Estoric DV-50 and Krell, and one 10.5 user just brought an Ayre player home for a try, so I say this is some pretty good competition.
I have a RAM modded 963sa And have had a Modwright signature 9000, and use a modded Sim Audio i-5 for sa-cd/redbook comparison.
Although avs, is mostly videophiles as you say, there are those that are also audiophools like myself.
AVS is the only place to find out about all the problems whith the 3910, and after reading about them , who in there right mind would have a 3910 modded.
My 5900 was supposed to be modded, but whith trasport grinding/Lock up and the macro blocking and excessive video artifacting, I decided to wait for a player that had less or no problems. |
You will have to translate french, but here is the only known comparison of the better video based universals besides all the personal reveiws at avs.
Look for the comparison at this site.
www.hifissimo.com
Greg |
bwhite, you are making an as* of yourself, the lockup was his 480p plazma display, and has nothing to do whith the player itself.
mattepntr, works in the film industry, knows exactly what film is supposed to look like, and absolutely loves this player in every way.
Again, you have listed one problem, and tried to make it into several because of your lack of video knowledge.
This problem is an hdmi/dvi connection problem which the 3910 also has.
This is the sole problem for any tiny video glitch that can be found in that entire thread, besides problems from actual displays, which have nothing to do whith any source player.
You may want to read, and try understanding whats being said,before posting any more mis- information.
Have a great one
Greg |
bwhite, the hdmi problem is universal whith all players when you use a hdmi/dvi adaptor, but this is something that is seen on a test disc more than actual video, and my newly ordered pj, has hdmi so its a moot point for me regardless.
Even though I am an audiophool first, I watch movies on a 110 plus inch screen and video artifacts can ruin any movie watching experience.
The 1000 shows NO excessive artifacting,and a fantastic picture and this makes all the difference in the world.
If video were as good on the audiophool brand universals (DV-50 ect), I would opt for one of those instead, but so far, it seems there not.
Also, if I could buy a dvd player that was anywhere near as good as the Onkyo 1000, that was dvd only, I would opt for that and go for a hi end sa-cd/redbook player instead of buying a universal and having it modified.
The 3910 and all other players have the hdmi/dvi adaptor problem also.
The Onkyo has no other problems that are not universal and the 2900 uses SI instead of the new buggy 2300 dcdi chip used in the 3910/5900.
The Onkyo/Integra also use a newer gen SI chip for video.
There is not one reported transport problem/failure to play discs ect problem on the SP1000. |
You are right,about macro blocking being part of the dvd mastering,nobody will argue that, but Denon issued no fix for this, at least none that worked.
You would think that they would notice this while doing r&d for the original culprit, the 5900, but what they ended up doing is issuing a second player whith the same chip...the 3910, whith a cheaper build and power supply.
The 5900 not only had macro blocking, it had unacceptable exaggereated video compression noise and basically exaggerated all artifacts on any given dvd transfer.
I don't think I have owned 17 dvd players, but I have owned/tried many.
I had no problems whith either the Philips 963sa stock or modified,or the Sony 9000 stock or modified.
Every other player has had problems so far except the Onkyo, which I have only had for less than a week.
The thing is the 9000 was not as good for video as the 963sa, and neither are anywhere near as good as the SP1000 for video or audio.
Beleive me, I wanted to like the 5900, or I wouldn't have got a second unit after the first gave me so many problems.
I will post my results honestly, when I pick up a 3910...I have absolutely no brand loyalty for audio or video brands.
Greg |
Like I said already, ALL players have a hdmi/dvi handshake problem bar none, so what is your point already.
Perhaps you can reference the actual thread/user name of this person with disc reading problems, as I can't seem to find it.
Any way, none of this has anythimg to do whith the fact that Denon has problems whith the 3910, just like the 5900, and seeings how I have owned all these players and will try the 3910 this week, I would say I am defenitly an expert on universals as compared to you.....LOL
Now.. back to my Samual Adams. |
The head and toe room cliping is the same exact problem whith hdmi/dvi connections have on EVERY player made.
I looked through every post and there are NO other reported problems, and no transport/disc reading problems from the Onkyo/Integra universals....not one single problem except for the universal hdmi/dvi toe room clipping ect problem,which is one universal problem whith all players, and in fact one in the same problem.
If you have an hdmi input, there is no problem at all.
Perhaps the other problems you thought you saw on the SP1000,were in reality, in one of the many 3910 threads filled whith complaints.
Have a great one
Greg |
Who cares what junior has to say, the fact is that every pro and every personal comparison of the Onkyo as compared to all other top notch universals, has the Onkyo on top, and in my set up, it is flawless.
Again,every problem you mention can be attributed to an HDMI/DVI connection only.
There all one problem whith that particular connection on the 3910 also.
All things being even, the Onkyo is still the clear winner over the 3910 in every opinion of the two, both pro and personal so far.
This IS the point.
Greg |
Sean, the 5900 would have, and does have a better image if you take the excessive artifacting and macro blocking out of the equation.
In other words if you have a reference transfered dvd, the 5900 will look better than the 2900, and if the dvd is average or has artifacting like most do, the 2900 would be the better player especially whith a larger projected image imo.
I had a 2900 breifly to check out but I don't beleive I ever had the chance to compare the two.
The 5900 whithout its unwanted ability to magnify video noise,macro blocking ect, would be a fantastic dvd player.
Greg |
I don't know how you can say I, am wrong, as I have not tried the 3910, but plan to.
For being a new model, there are far too many complaints on the 3910 imo.
Denon has already mentioned the fact that there is a problem whith the 5900 whith macro blocking, and I beleive the 3910 uses the same chip.
If there was no fix for the 5900, how can it be fixed on the 3910?
You have to remember that to speak badly of Denon at AVS, is frowned upon, keeping a lot of people quiet.
I was not quiet whith the 5900 macro blocking problem, and I ended up hearing about it from the Denon faithfull , along whith there leader lol.
Anyway, this was whith one of the very first 5900's, and I was told that it was my set up/calibration ect when it clearly was not.
Now Denon freely admits they have a problem, whith no fix, and the chance of ever getting a fix, is slim to none.
My second 5900 had no transport lockup/grinding, or refusal to play certain sa-cd's like the first, but the macro blocking remained.
The second 5900 was bought around 3 months after the first batch.
The 2300 chip also has problems in the 318hd from Zenith while upconverting, so Denon can blame it on that, but I choose, and rightly so, to blame the manufactuer themselves.
They are responsible for testing and QC of there own products.... period, and not using the buying public for QC.
I have read all the Denon threads except the 2910 threads, and there are more than just "a few" people complaining.
Also check the 1910 thread, the 2300 chip thread ect.
I have a dlp projector, and can see macro blocking from not only dvi, but also componemt 480p, along whith other excess compression/noise while using the 5900.
This problem is far from being a plazma display only problem, and a 480p component connection will also show macro blocking, not just dvi.
I don't know what your audio comparison has to do whith the fact that every personal and pro reveiw available, has the Onkyo/Integra as the winner over not only the 3910, but Flagship Marantz,Pioneer ect universals audio playback whith all formats???
Are you saying the 3910 is a much better redbook player than the 5900?
When I compared the 5900 to my Modwright signature, or my Ram modified 963sa, it was outclassed by both players for both sa-cd/redbook.
My plan was to mod the 5900 before I even bought it.
Same goes for the Onkyo, or any other universal in this price range.
The Onkyo is not outclassed for audio, especially sa-cd by the modded players.
Like I said previously, I am going to pick up a 3910 for comparison, after I receive my hdmi/dvi adaptor.
I will use the same set up to compare the 3910/1000 using custom made speakers using all Scan Speak revelator drivers along whith Hovland/ Goetz xovers for my comparison.
The same exact VH pulsar ic's,Audience pc,Ap oval 9's and Ram modified Sim i-5.
For video, I will use the same dlp pj, dvi cable,power conditioner ect to see if there is any magnification of artifacts including excess video compression and macro blocking, and also compare overall video quality.
Funny thing is, only some Denon owners seem to get irritated when there brand of choice is under the scope, but if I ended up liking the 3910 better, or as well as the 1000, how many would be crying foul then?
Have a great one
Greg |
BWfreak,
This thread is entitled Denon 3910 opinions, and the ones at AVS are as valid as any, especially on the video side of things.
There are quite a few posts on failure to read dvd's, sa-cd's, dvd-a's, slow reaction time, and a few layer change posts besides the macro blocking issue.
The fact is that it does not matter if the macro blocking is because of bad dvd authoring if it is Denon players that are showing it in excess, and other players are not showing it at all, even on known problem discs.
If I were leaving the player stock,I might not be as concerned about possible problems, as the player would be under warranty.
I did receive my HDMI/DVI adaptor today, and will pick up a 3910 for comparison tommorow, if they have one in stock.
In the mean time, here is another pro reveiw of the Onkyo sp 1000 vs the competition including Denon.
http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/onkyo_dv_sp1000e.shtml
It seems the French and the Germans both think the Onkyo is king, even though it sells for around 5k there.
Greg |
Jer, I don't entirely have much faith in the Secrets reveiws as they never deducted points for the macro blocking on the 5900,that and there is a Huge Denon banner at that site.
Anyway, I already picked up a 3910,,,and guess what, "IT WILL NOT EVEN POWER UP", whether you use the main power button or the remote, this 3910 is DOA.
I am going back to the store as they had two more 3910's besides this one.
This is not a good start at all, and I can hardly beleive that I got a doa unit.
That has never ever happened to me whith any other gear ever.
The serial # of the doa unit is 4068400860 not sure if this is a first bad batch deal or what , but I find it quite ironic.
Greg |
Bwfreak, Secrets is supposed to be used as a guideline, not a bible for dvd quality.
I did use it as a guideline only, up until the 5900 rating.
The salesman took a second 3910 out of the box and powered it up before I arrived to swap them out.
He of course said he had never seen a dvd player DOA before this.
Maybe he is telling the truth, and maybe not, but when there is money involved,which comes in all forms such as advertising on reveiw sites, you can never really know for sure, can you?
Kris himself acknowledges the macro blocking problem on the 5900 and failed to use that info in the scoring, or at least adjusting the score once this problem was verified by Denon on the 5900.
My comparison will be more than fair, regardless of the superior build of the sp 1000, and all those other pro and personal reveiws claiming that it is the best they have ever seen and in some cases heard.
Who wouldn't want a cheaper player that looked and/or sounded better?
I know I would, if this turned out to be the case for me.
Take care
Greg |
As far as my little comparison on the 3910 and sp 1000, they both have the blacker than black bug for hdmi/dvi connections.
I checked for macro blocking, and found no objectional excessive macro blocking in movies that definitly show it.
The 480p was great for both players, but the 1000 made movies such as Unbreakable, have a smoother background throughout the film and offered the same great detail as the 3910 at the same time.
Audio comparisons were all done in 2 channel whith the 1000 having a more laid back soundstage and more body whithin the soundstage.
The 3910 initially sounds pretty good,but I would say its on the bright side of neutral for redbook and sa-cd.
The 3910 did not handle complex music as well as the 1000, and also had a slightly lean sounding midrange.
I don't listen to much dvd-a, but I found the 1000 too laid back as compared to the 3910 for dvd-a, and would pick the 3910 for that format.
I think the 3910 is a better player (other than build) to the 5900.
It offers slightly better video whithout excessive macro blocking, and good sound for the money.
If I had tried the 3910 first, I am sure I would be happy whith it, other than the hdmi/dvi btb problem.
Whith the 1000, it is worth the extra money for build, smoother film image and the neutral sonics, but it also has the hdmi/dvi btb problem.
Why can't these companys get this right?
Greg |
Bwhite, you can look at close ups of both of these players guts at the Crutchfield site.
The sp 1000 has a lot beefier power supply that includes a torridal transformer.
The tray on the sp 1000 glides out smoothly whithout a peep, where the 3910, you can hear the tray easily make a low level grinding or clicking noise.
The transport on the 1000, is more like one you might find on more expensive hi end gear, and the transport tray on the 3910 seems cheap in comparison.....no offense to 3910 owners.
The build difference is real obvious in person, but hard to describe whithout making the 3910 sound cheaper than it is.
The fact that the 1000 is a lot more responsive to commands, disc reading ect tends to make the perceived better build quality seem better yet.
The only thing the 1000 does slow is dvd-a, and I find both players to be way too slow when using dvd-a.
BTW... I do not automatically assume that the better build sounds or looks better on any source, but when they do perform better, it offers a sense of getting what you paid for, which is really just an added nice bonus.
While I don't beleive the 3910 looks bad in general,it pales in comparison to the 1000 in the looks department....but that is subjective.
The 1000 weighs 27 lbs, but if you look at pictures of both players guts at the Crutcfield site, its better to see the difference as far as build goes.
I have never owned an Onkyo/Integra source before this one, but I am highly impressed whith the build and reaction time, as well as the transport. |
Kman,
The Onkyo sp 1000 and Integra dps 10.5 seem to be the same player except the 10.5 outputs upconverted video from composite and s video external source, has bnc component, and a 3 year warranty for 500.00 more.
If you go to the Integra site, you will see that the internals and case look exactly the same except for the name Integra on the face and torridal transformer.
It is the sp 1000 that is coming up roses against the 5900,3910,Pioneer 59avi and Marantz 9500 in those german and French reveiws.
Apparently, the 1000 sells for around 5k anywhere over seas, were the Denon,Pioneer and Marantz sell for about the same as the U.S.
The sp 1000 has external upconversion and bnc connectors on all models except the U.S. and Canadien models. |
Bwhite, the Goldman is beautious or something, but a bit out of my price range.
I could afford maybe a Estoric dv-50, but the video is supposedly not up to par whith the Onkyo or top Denons ect,so I will go the mod route instead.
The Onkyo pictures don't really do it justice as it has a curved front, a sweet door that silently pops up over the tray when closed, hex head bolts instead of screws on the case, and the top half of that remote is aluminum instead of plastic.
The 2 channel analog outs are machined instead of your common gold plated rca outs.
It is definitly no Goldman, but has quite a few nice touches for its price.
The damm backlight on the 3910's remote is on the top whith all the other buttons instead of on the side were it should be.
My video upconversion button on the 3910 has already quit working and I now have to get up if I want to change that.
One thing I forgot to mention is the 1000's pace and timing are better also.
At least that is what my new fangled foot tapping meter reads.
I must of seen the 3910 interior pics at AVS and not at Crutchfield....sorry about that.
If I was to mod one of these players myself, it would be the 3910, but I will end up paying crazy money to someone else and go whith the sp 1000.
Greg |
To anyone who cares, the blacker than black hdmi bug on the Onkyo is fixed via firmware, leaving the sp 1000 as close to perfect a universal player your likely to find for 2.5k or less.
You either buy one whith it already done or call Onkyo and they send it to you for the simple fix.
After living whith this player for a couple of months, I must say that I am in no hurry for mods as this player is quite musical and balanced for long term listening.
Unlike other universals, this player has fast reaction and loading times and I have not had one glitch whith any format.
Greg |
