The Dali is warmer in presentation with more of a midbass prominence and need more space from rear and sidewalls to "disappear". The Adagio have more top end detail but less bass extension. Both are excellent choices. The Adagio is not on the warm side, it is neutral. The Adagio should be easier to drive if you have a less efficient amp. What is your amplification, room size and listening habits? |
I own the Adagio and have listened to the Dali for an extended audition. I can't add much to Philbrady, the Adagios are detailed and nuetral, I don't feel they lack base, but am not a base fiend. I don't think you can go wrong with either, but the greater amp friendliness of the Adagios may tip the balance. Both look good too, which helps selling them to my wife |
Thanks guys--
Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but I have been away. I use a Bel Canto digital amp. I will probably be going back to a tube pre.
Rich |
I have experience with owning the 400's, purchased 800's and now am going back to a another pair of 400's. I only know the 400's, but remember there 4 ohm speakers, making them effcient relative to amp wattage. I played them through a Plinius SA100 MK111 100 watt per channel amp (rated for 8 ohm's) and the bass extension was amazing! Very nice detail, excellent sound stage, depth, openess. I'd take the Dali's in hearbeat, besides I see a lot of the Adagio's used on the Audiogon. In terms of price, its probably easier to buy a used pair then the Dali's, you should really audition both. |
Hello,
I own the Helicon 400s but have not heard the AZAs. I am running them with a Dared 845 tube based SET at 22wpc. I never go over 12:00 on the volume and I am floored by the dynamics and how easy these speakers are to drive. I can achieve very loud volume levels and there is no evidence of amplifier stress in the music. It is clear and very detailed throughout the musical range. I had reservations trying this combo but I am now sold many times over. It must be the relatively flat impedance that makes it amplifier freindly. In addition the Helicons WAF speaks for itself. My wife actually said " they areto nice to keep in the loft". |
I bought the Adagio's after listening to many, many top notch speakers. I considered the Dali but was actually sampling and considering the next top of the line Dali and felt the AZ Adagio clearly beat it out on stage, clarity, and diversity. The dali did not seem to play all music well as tunes with more bass seemed to vibrate thru the room instead of producing a natural blended sound. I love the Acoustic Zens and can't say enough good things about them! |
Get Adagios guy I just got them new and put few hours on them they sound great with BAT VK-300x integrated. |
The DALIs are very amp sensitive. The bass can sound very woolly without a good bit of power and damping to handle the woofers. I heard them with 4 amps and each sounded very different.
Dave |
I have owned the 400 and the 800mk2, with different amps, and heard them with many other amps. I disagree that they are amp sensitive. The sound good on an average amp, but will reveal the flaws to some extent, and they are superb with a great amp. I have also read comments from others that confirm dali's arent as amp fussy as other speakers. I would suggest above 100w will drive and control them very nicely in moderate room.
Tremendous speakers - i tried many, many, brands... |
05-02-08: Mike60 said:
"I have owned the 400 and the 800mk2, with different amps, and heard them with many other amps. I disagree that they are amp sensitive. The sound good on an average amp, but will reveal the flaws to some extent, and they are superb with a great amp. I have also read comments from others that confirm dali's arent as amp fussy as other speakers. I would suggest above 100w will drive and control them very nicely in moderate room."
IME, 100 Class AB watts (Primare) was grossly inadequate. 200 watts was better and 500 watts was much better. I think they need 200 watts.
I'm going back with another amp to give them another chance. I'll take my Conrad JOhnson CA200, which should be almost 300 watts into the DALI load. We'll see if that doesn't work.
Dave |
Dave,
Your Conrad Johnson will definitely have enough power!
I'm driving the Helicon 800s with 180w, and I think it is more than adequate. The lowest power I heard them driven with was an Ayre 70w and I would say that was not enough, so the answer for the minimum must be somewhere above that. More will always be better. Perhaps over 150w?
I do think that once you have enough power, the Dali's arent that amp fussy from my experience, and also from what I have read.
I had an experience with a 100w Primare on Dynaudio speakers, and we just could not get them to sing. |
Yeah, the 100w Primare was clearly not up to the task with the DALIs, yet the Rowland 102 stereo amps was much better. The rowland 501s were way better.
I'll try again on Monday.
Dave |
As an example, I know how these speakers sound driven with 180w of NAD M3 power and sound excellent (as a budget solution), but the base was not absolutely controlled. Very powerful base, though. Also know how they sound with a 180w Gamut amp, and the base is superbly controlled. same power... |
There are two potential problems with the DALI's bass, IME. One is a high potential that the bass will be woolly and uncontrolled with some amps. This is easily controlled by many amps, but the user just needs to be aware of this and select an amp accordingly.
The other issue has to do with deep bass, below 50hz. Listeing to truly deep bass I've found the DALIs have difficulty producing the character of the notes (overtones) and gets into a one-note mode. Hopefully I'll have time to try it with one more amp today. I've got my Conrad Johnson CA200 in the trunk of my car and hope to get a chance to plug that in. It's around 300 watts into 4 ohms. If that doesn't fix the issue, then I'm going to think it's a resonance or crossover issue that can't be fixed. That'll be the fifth amp. It's not a power-need issue.
I'll report back soon.
Dave |
Sorry, but putting the Conrad Johnson CA200 "control amp" (somewhere over 300 watts into the DALI's 4 ohm-ish load) into the system did not fix the DALI's low bass extension issue. You really only hear it with extremely low notes as produced by synthesizer. Most acoustic bass comes through with no problem.
I don't think it's the room because the Vienna Acoustics are just fine in Sounding's large listening room. We put the Beethoven Baby Grands right inside the DALIs and they had no problem.
Dave |
Dcstep, I actually found deep harmonic base to be one area that attracted me to the Helicons in the first place. In some respects, the mk1 was slightly better, but there were other compromises that I wouldnt go back to.
I use a few tracks for testing the extreme low bass including Bela Fleck's 'flight of the cosmic hippo'. Or try Sarah McClaughlin's 'i love you' (i think that is the track). Of course some orchestral pieces, and some Patricia Barber is good for this. Not sure what the frequencies are but they are low!
In my experience with quality amplification (especially high end solid state), the Dali's were superior to some of the others speakers in a similar price range. I tried Revel, B&W, Focal, and others.
I find the base a little thick and lacking in harmonics when they are too close to the rear wall, but as soon as you move them away, they come alive. Perhaps you should try this? Maybe it is just the combination of my system and room, and good cables with a tight bottom end also makes a difference. With some extreme high end cables, I got worse results in the base harmonics. |
Dcstep, it sounds very much like this speaker doesnt suit your needs and equipment after 5 amps! I must admit I havent seen this issue in my experience with them, but after 5 amps, is it time to switch to a different speaker? |
Thanks Mike. I'm using the Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Baby Grand which does everything I need for my current room.
Dave |
Sounds like you have a wonderful set up and great speakers. I havent heard the Baby Grands myself.
I listened tonight to some of my test classical tracks eg Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet and Schubert's 9th, and specifically listened to the deep base harmonics/tonality, and I am still impressed. Must be my set up and room etc. The speakers I listened to before buying the Helicons included Thiel, Revel, Triangle, Dynaudio, Focal, B&W, Elac, Sonus Faber...that i can remember. I also listened to some extreme high end speakers. It took me ages. It is so hard to find what works well for your taste, your equipment, your room, and last (and definitely least), your budget. I am extremely fussy.
Sounds like you are too :-) so if yours are doing it for you already, why change? You are winning! I rare thing in this game in my books. |
Mike, this issue that I experienced was in very low bass, below string orchestra levels typically. So it was synthesizers playing below the five-string electric bass range. I only ran into it on some of my light jazz albums. Also, you if you heard it you might not know it was limited, because there's a strong signal there, but it just doesn't show it's full character. You have to hear it on another speaker and then you'll realize your missing it.
My guess is that well under 10% of my CD/LP collection would expose the issue. So, your odds are pretty good that it will NOT interfere with your enjoyment. The mids and particularly the highs near the top of the heap with the DALIs, IME. |
Dcstep, this is not intended as some sort of challenge, but perhaps you're asking the Helicons to reproduce sounds they're not really designed to reproduce. Do you know the frequency you're focusing on?
If that frequency range is especially important to anyone, then unless they have a true full-range speaker, the would likely be well served by adding a subwoofer.
I too have been impressed with the Helicon 400s from top to bottom, though perhaps not quite bottom bottom... |
05-07-08: Steidlguitars said:
"Dcstep, this is not intended as some sort of challenge, but perhaps you're asking the Helicons to reproduce sounds they're not really designed to reproduce. Do you know the frequency you're focusing on?
If that frequency range is especially important to anyone, then unless they have a true full-range speaker, the would likely be well served by adding a subwoofer.
I too have been impressed with the Helicon 400s from top to bottom, though perhaps not quite bottom bottom... "
Thanks for your comment.
I haven't brought both my tuner and SPL meter into the room to figure out the exact frequencies, but yes they are very low, like 30-40 hz. I've got a test CD with sine waves and these seem in that range, without using instruments to absolutely verify that.
Yes, you're right, these speakers may not be designed to go that low and one may want to try the 800s if they otherwise like the DALIs but need more depth. However, I would point out that there are speakers that are smaller than these and cost much less that do play those notes, which is probably the source of my surprise.
Dave |
Dcstep, you're a good sport, thanks.
My point was that every speaker design represents trade offs, especially those that are priced within reach of many listeners. For me, 30 hz would be nice, but it is never my principal focus; if that is especially important to you or anyone else, then you'd be better served looking elsewhere.
But to get those low lows--and to hold price constant--you'd trade away something else. For me, it is a speaker that gets the mids right -- vocals and guitar -- everything else is a little less important.
With a tube amp, the Helicons do the mids quite well (not perfectly by any means) and they excel in detail, soundstage, and imaging where I have found them as good as some excellent monitors. Their ribbon tweeter gives them a bit more air then typical, almost like an electrostat to some degree. Their lower mids can be a bit congested, but a change in speaker cables cleared that up for me.
All of that is to say that it's all about trade-offs and knowing what you're after. Like flavors of ice cream! |
Dcstep and Steidlguitars,
We will probably be more aligned after this post. I re-read the thread and realise that there may be some miscommunication, and I have to apologise.
I owned the Helicon 400 for about 18 months, and upgraded to the 800 mk2, so all my comments regarding recent testing of the deep base are with respect to the 800 mk2 which I own currently.
I would say this - the 400 is a superb speaker which I would recommend to anyone in a heartbeat. It comes extremely close to being a full range speaker, and I would say it is one of the best in it's class. Perhaps there are some compromises in the deepest base notes. I dont recall this ever being an issue, and I cant go back to test again. So I have to accept Dcstep's comments, and maybe it is asking too much of the speaker.
The 800 mk2 is even better and is most definitely a full range speaker. The deep base is outstanding. There is a reason why they produce an 800 and dont just stop the range at the 400, but of course, they cost more :-)
Sorry for the confusion. |
Well Mike60, the OP started out talking about the 400, but somewhere along the way we DID indeed start talking about both. I've never heard the 800, so I can't comment on it.
Anyway, we certainly seem to agree on the strengths of the DALIs, their mids and highs. The DO demand good amplification because they're very revealing. I heard them with some very transparent amps, so the guitars and vocals where very nice.
Dave |
I've followed this thread for a while. Anyone care to comment on the Helicon 400s or the Adagios as combined with an Odyssey Stratos HT3 amp (SS, 150w/channel, with cap upgrade) and a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofers? TIA. |
Bondmanp, well I haven't heard the combo that your refer to, but I can't imagine that the subs couldn't take care of the low-bass issue that I had. I think you could cross-over at 60 Hz and end up with a stellar setup. Of course, you have the issues of integrating the subs with the mains, but I'll have to assume that you were able to do that well.
Dave |
