Daedalus

I'm in favor of people using subs with my speakers if they like, though I don't feel it's necessary. In the design of all my systems I decided to not make any compromises in order to achieve a flat response in the lowest half octave or so of music, feeling that a sub is better designed for that range if the room etc warrant it.
As it turns out the systems have a very gradual slope below the -3db point (many systems quickly die below that point). I find that this helps them to achieve a very natural bass on their own as well as integrate very well with a sub. For the large systems (DA-1.1 &Ulysses) I find 28-30hz works well and for the DA-2.1 & DA-RMa about 30-38hz. Of course run the speakers full range and add just a touch of the sub. Some of my customers use subs, some don't and some have sold their subs when getting my speakers as they felt they no longer needed them. Personal choice!
Another aspect is the mating of amplifier to the speaker. As some of you have noted with these speakers it is pretty evident what's going on with the other gear in the chain. I find that the extension and character of the bass can be markedly different with different power amplifiers. Possibly the best bass I've heard in an amplifier is the new Modwright, just changing to that amp is like adding a perfect sub-woofer!

hope this helps.
thanks,
Lou

Hi everyone,

Just a quick update on my previous post. I ended up purchasing a beautiful pair of Daedalus Ulysses' with cherry finish. The woodworking is drop dead gorgeous. Most importantly, the sound is divine. As others have noted, the sound is quite natural. Instrumental timbres, especially acoustic instruments, are lovely and accurate. The bass is high quality and very natural. However, you don't get the last 1/2 octave. The overally frequency balance is very accurate.

Where these speakers really stand out when compared to other box enclosures is the outstanding dynamic range. IMO, this is critical to accurately reproduce music and the Daedalus have a relaxed, wide dynamic range typically associated with horns or other high efficiency systems. This attribute doesn't overwhelm the listener, rather it makes you aware of how it is often lacking in other designs.

I recently auditioned a number of amplifiers and it was striking how the Ulysses' provided a window on what was happening upstream. The invidual characteristics of the amplifiers were easy to discern. I agree with Lou's assessment that despite the relatively high sensitivity, the speakers like amps with lots of current and a relatively high damping factor.

I am very pleased...

Welcome to the family, Doc!

Barrelchief,

Thanks. It's good to be in the club!

My DA-RMa's are impressing me more and more every day. Recently had a local audiobuddy over; his comment was that the DA-RMa's sounded so good it was almost like my prior spkrs (the Micro Utopias) were broken!!

I've been rolling various power and pre/input tubes thru my Cary SLI-80 the last couple of weeks--they all sound pretty good thru the DA-RMa's, but still the DA-RMa's let me hear the differences in various tube combinations much easier than I could before.

I really pleased with these guys!

Randy

Michael: Your membership needs to be updated! When are the new DA-1.1's arriving?

Hey you young whipper-snapper with your ipod and fancy "1.1"...

As Bart Simpson said "Digital audio tape, my butt; when I was growing up, we had cd's and I didn't hear anyone complaining."

Ok, enough silliness...upgrade from The Classic DA-1 will take place once we finalize the interior decor plan...it's a WAF kinda thang.

"it was striking how the Ulysses' provided a window on what was happening upstream. The invidual characteristics of the amplifiers were easy to discern".

Jazdoc: I couldn't agree more. In the past six months I've upgraded my preamp (from an Audio Research SP16 to an LS26) and my amp (from an Audio Research 150.2 to an SD135) and in each instances my DA-1.1's told me EXACTLY what was going on. In a way, the Daedalus speakers manage to square the circle by being both "ruthlessly revealing" and "utterly non-fatiguing". A lot of speakers that provide such a clear window on upstream changes can be unlistenable on a day to day basis. They may be a good "reviewers tool" but not not necessarily something you want around for the pure enjoyment of music. My DA-1.1's are now a year old and I continue to be impressed by their ability to raise their level of performance as you put higher quality components in front of them. It's like getting an extra $50 for every $100 invested in the signal chain. Fabulous speakers and it's great to see others joining in the fun.

In case people have not seen it there is a nice review of the DA-RMa posted at Stereotimes. The reviewer purchased the pair--no better endorsement in my view.

Thanks Dodgealum, I've been waiting for the review for a while. I just wish reviewers would'nt prevaricate and just say they like a product or not. Seriously, just one more bit of encouragement to take the plunge when I come to RMAF in October. He seems to answer my question about the base, emphatically and thank goodness, someone else with the secret vice of loving Opera

I hereby swear never to prevaricate again. Audiophiles' honor. But don't ya mean 'pontificate' or something? Doesn't prevaricate mean to lie?! Subjectivity it all is, but I tell it like I hear it.

Of course you realize, my next review will now likely read, "I liked this preamp. A lot. Really."
Maybe that'll be refreshing. Definitely easier to write.

Seriously, I really DID want to chime in on this thread a time ago, but the review was in process and I didn't want to give away the plot. The DA-RMa is truly a great and balanced loudspeaker. I love them, I bought them and I highly recommend them. Lou's a great guy too.

David

David: You review of DA-RMa mentions Ulysses, and I get the idea that the latter may be better but also much more expensive. However, Daedalus also offers others in the lineup, like 1.1, 2.1 . Did you look at those?

Is anybody here in a position to comment on 1.1 v 2.1 v RMa in terms of the value offered?

No-- unfortunately I have never heard the 1.1 or the 2.1 or for that matter, the Ulysses. Of course, I would love to-- and if they are any 'better' than the DA-RMa- well-- that would be amazing.
I will certainly try to hear the Ulysses in the future. Right now I am still single and moving around the country a bit for my job, so I just figured the DA-RMas would make easier traveling companions due to their size and would also fit into smaller listening rooms better.
But in the future when I am (hopefully) more settled-- I will definitely be auditioning the Ulysses (when I have the room). I feel those could very well be a 'last-speaker-ever' kind of speaker for me!!

I don't know of anyone who has much experience with all four models. I can try to succinctly and honestly comment on the differences and value of the different models if you'd like?
I know that people don't generally like to hear from the manufacturer unless requested, and I try to respect that.
thanks,
Lou

I auditioned the DA-RMa and Ulysses at Lou's workshop. Obviously, this was a limited audition in an unfamilar system. For me, the increased refinement and authority were worth the difference in price and I bought the Ulysses.

Price is a consideration, but for me, size is more important. The Ulysses is'nt enormous by modern standards, it is still too big to get passed my eagle eyed wife. It is 4 inches taller, I believe than the DA 1.1. I would love to go for the Ulysses, it just is'nt going to happen, it would tend to overpower my room

There is a review of the Ulysses in latest issue of Bound for Sound. It is a nice but nor particularly glowing review.

Daedalus_audio: I don't know of anyone who has much experience with all four models. I can try to succinctly and honestly comment on the differences and value of the different models if you'd like?

Thanks Lou. Both the offer and the gracious manner in which it is made are rare and most appreciated. I would certainly love to hear your take on all models. My wildest hope was to find a few individuals who may have heard two models each, so I could sample comments pairwise. To hear a systematic summary of what each model can or cannot do would be just super.

I agree, Tvad. I am a big fan of Martin DeWulf for his forthrightness, integrity and humility. He gives you the positives and negatives of each product and compares them to like products he has auditioned. He spoke well of the Ulysses but did not make me want to run out and audition them.

Neal

I don't read BFS anymore as I lost interest when I found out Marty uses Lowes AC cable for speaker cables. However, I do own a pair of Ulysses speakers and it would be a loss for you or anyone else interested in them to not run out and listen to them. They are the best I've owned and the best I have heard and I've owned re-built dbl. stacked Quad 57's, B&W 802's, Beauhorn's, 3A De Capo's, Legacy Focus and unfortunately for my pocketbook, too many others to remember right now.

Lou's speakers, including the smaller DA-RMa model, which I heard at RMAF, are great, dynamically natural sounding loudspeakers that can be driven by SET's or high power SS.

They also have a timless beauty, which I do not tire of.

Good luck.

Frank

Just my 2 pennies...I think that the two recent reviews of Daedalus in Stereo Times and Bound For Sound offer a pretty accurate appraisal of the Daedalus 'house sound'. Obviously, Lou's aesthetic appealed more to the reviewer at Stereo Times. That's to be expected.

We all interact with music as individuals in our own unique way. I have friends who are thrilled with their planar and horn speakers, but to my ear, those particular strengths and compromises are not my personal choice. That in no way invalidates either approach. In my experience, as you move up the food chain, all of the equipment seems to converge toward a uniform 'truth'. Different designers seem to approach it in their singular way. It sure makes this hobby a lot of fun.

As I haven't read Marty's Daedalus review yet (I will- I'm a subscriber but im out of state right now so cant get to the mailbox)- Nglazer, if you have, could you tell me his 'reservations' about the Ulysses? What made the review less than 'glowing'? Since I'm getting near 'live' sounding music in my humble abode especially with smaller scale works- and my emotional involvement meter is pegged (and I've heard hundreds of speakers over the years) 'enquiring' minds want to know!! Now!!

PS- I positively hated the Lowes 6 gauge cables Marty loves. I set them up as recommended and broke them in etc and... threw them out (literally) after about two months of subbing them in to different systems. Could those cables be the problem? ;)

Abramswatch,

First, I did not intend to diss any owners of this speaker. Just reporting what I read. I have not heard any Daedelus speakers. I use a pair of similarly priced speakers - Von Schweikert VR5 HSE's (not current VR5's) -- and although I think these are among the best at anything near their price, I am sure many would differ with me on this.

MDW reported that notwithstanding two 7" woofers, they don't plumb the bass depths and the bottom octave is missing. He found the bass on the VMPS RM40's, at less than half the price, to be deeper and the VMPS having greater ambient air than the Ulysses and capturing decay better than the Ulysses.

That said, he also paid several compliments to the speaker, especially its transparaent mid-range and smooth treble. So, it was a nice review but not a glowing one.
And I too am skeptical of his use of Lowes wire as speaker cable, but he did rave about LessLoss PC's, with which I agree. He is like any other reviewer in this regard: sometimes they are on point, sometimes off-base.

Neal

Nglazer,

Thanks for your comments and I hope if you come out to the RMAF you will find time to stop in and say hi.
I would like to clarify and correct a couple of errors in the BFS article that is being quoted. First the sensitivity is 97db not 93db as written, also his assumptions about the crossover points are considerably off.

As for the bass, it is not "missing" nor did Marty say that. (the Ulysses is -2db @ 28hz with a smooth slope below that.) I have always felt that the range from 20-30hz is best handled by a sub if one really wants a flat response in that range. This is simply my design approach and I do this because I do not want to compromise the musicality of the bass range of music (30hz -200hz). Again just my approach, not saying it's the only way...

Also as a few have already mentioned his 'cables' are not the best match for a neutral speaker. I have found with these speakers that cables make a HUGE difference in the aspects of phase, air, stage and detail. I have recently changed to Cardas posts because I found they improved all these areas, the point being that the posts are in a sense a continuation of the cables and if it didn't matter we could use cheap copper posts and get the same transparency, which is clearly not the case.

All that being said I think it is a good review and he appreciated the dynamic and musical capabilities of the speaker.

Thanks,
Lou

NGlazer, sorry if I implied you were dissing anyone - I didnt mean to! I was just wanting a bit of a preview about the Daedalus review before I get home and check it out.
I agree with Lou that the Daedaluses are either 'sensitive' to cabling or 'revealing' of its inadequacies... or both! I've for example, played around with 4 or 5 different speaker cables during the review and some have dulled things a bit (to the point of boredom actually) and some have made things too forward and some.... you get the idea.
Had I only heard the DA-RMa's with say, the QED Silver anniversary cables I have on hand, I would have thought them somewhat constrained sounding. Once I switched to the Red Wine Cables, the sound became more immediate and upfront and pacey. To my ears- it was a BIG difference. Analysis cables confused things in terms of the focus of individual instruments for example, whereas the wonderful Audio Art SE cables and the similarly wonderful Skywire cables sharpened the focus and let the music roll again!
Marty has raved about products such as the Gallos (yah- so have many) and the Lowes 6 gauge (so have few). Having heard both products at length, I do err....appreciate the Gallos. Yes- 'appreciate' is the appropriate word here. As for the Lowes cables, well, the less said the better.
So perhaps my musical tastes are not well aligned with his; which is maybe why I'm so anxious to see what 'criticisms' he might have of something I love and have chosen to live with. Maybe it'll give me a better understanding of what he values as an audiophile/insight into our differences and all that jazz?!

Having just read the BFS review, I do'nt feel it is critical at all. The problem is, reading Stereophile, TAS or HiFi+, everything is perfect, the best thing since sliced bread. This makes the magazines pretty much useless. I think Marty's review is pretty balanced. He says all speakers, all components are a set of compromises. You can't have everything. He reports the Ulysses emphasises Efficiency and dynamic contrasts, perhaps losing out on base, because of the efficiency and phase coherence. He also says he can't remember such an efficient speaker, able to cope with such high power amplifiers.
From memory, the review is more favourable than the one for the DA-1

And just to round things out, there is a "glowing" review of the Da-Rma's in the current issue of stereotimes.com e-zine.

Regardless of all these reviews, anyone who buys speakers without giving them a long listen first is simply rolling the dice.

Neal

LOL!!! I know it's 'glowing'-- I wrote it ;)

Well, at least I described it accurately.

Lou,

Per your 6/22/09 post, I would like to hear your comments regarding the "... differences and value of the different models ..."

Thanks!

"07-07-09: Sparkomatic
Lou,

Per your 6/22/09 post, I would like to hear your comments regarding the "... differences and value of the different models ..."

I tried to post this before but it didn't go up?

All four models in the line use the same drivers and basic components, of course each systems crossover is unique to it but even those are all of a similar design. I'll try to describe the basic differences in each model.

The DA-1.1 and DA-2.1 have a very wide sweet spot so they are well suited for HT use, but they also image more than well enough to be good two channel speakers. The DA-1.1 has a slightly warmer sound (the emphasis is on 'slightly'), than the others due to the balance of two 8" handing off to one 5" mid. This sound is a little closer to the 'Harbeth" sound. I think the DA-2.1 is a great choice for a home with sub(s) that will be doing video as well as two-channel.

The DA-RMa has better imaging and depth of stage and possibly a slightly better resolution in the midrange than the DA-1.1 &2.1, but the sweet spot is similar in size to most high end audio speakers unlike the 1.1&2.1 which have an almost room size sweet spot. The Ulysses is a bigger overall sound than the DA-RMa with more bass extension as well as a deeper slightly more detailed image. It just takes everything to the limit as a flagship system should.

So to answer the value question is difficult as that is very subjective. In terms of budget and application, I have customers with any of these who consider their choice to be a 'value'.

I hope this helps

thanks,
Lou

Daedalus_audio: I tried to post this before but it didn't go up?

And I was beginning to think you were dissing the questions I asked on 6/22 and 6/23. Can always soothe my feelings with a 2.1 ... -:)

Thank you for putting various models in perspective. I found that very informative.

My DA-RMa's are now a few months 'old' and I comfortable that they are completely broken in. As we all know, everyone's tastes are different and of course sound is so much room and associated equipment dependent. But I wanted to chime in one more time on my opinion/preference for these speakers.

Over the years I've owned a number of very good speakers in my opinion: Thiel 2.2's, Thiel 3.6's, Wilson Benesch Act Ones (I think I had one of the 1st pairs in the US), Sonus Faber Electa Amator II's, JM Lab Micro Utopia's....IMHO the DA-RMa's are easily the most enjoyable of any speaker I've owned. They give me the detail & dynamics of the Thiels, the resolution and coherence of the Wilson Benesch Act Ones, and the absolute non-fatiguing, enjoyable listening experience of the EA II's!! After 25 years in this hobby, this may the 1st purchase/upgrade that I've been completely satisfied that indeed its an upgrade and worth the investment.

Lou has a great product and is great to deal with. I urge anyone that has a chance to give his speakers a listen. I'd love to hear the Ulysses (but cost and room size make those babies a non-starter for me anyway).

No, I have no affiliation with Daedalus other than being a very happy customer. And I don't often post my evaluations of equipment, but given that I'm so pleased with this purchase, I wanted to sing some praises :)!

Rrsclyde and others, Thanks much!! After seventeen years at this I'm still touched by the generous appreciation my customers have for what I do. It really is the people that make it worthwhile!
Thanks,
Lou

Rrsclyde--glad to hear you are enjoying the DA-RMa's. I've had my DA-1.1's for over a year now and the love affair continues. Lou--I was intrigued by your comparison of the different models since I did not get a chance to comparison shop within the line prior to purchase. Your remarks about the DA-1.1 being (ever so slightly) warmer than the other models is particularly noteworthy, as is your comparison to the "Harbeth" sound with which I am very familiar. What led me to the original DA-1 and now to the upgraded DA-1.1 was the likeness of your designs to my Harbeth Compact 7's across the midrange--an area where this speaker excels like no other. That you have managed to produce a full range floorstanding speaker that can compete with the Harbeth in this critical area but which is much more dynamic and capable of recreating a lifelike presentation of the recorded experience is why, I believe, your designs are receiving such unanimous critical acclaim. I am grateful to have found a speaker with which I can enjoy for a lifetime. Thanks again!

Just wanted to let everyone know that I have found two highly effective 'tweaks' to the Ulysses that work well separately but even better in combination.

Lou can make up a layered maple slab that sits between the speaker and the stand. (I also removed the plinth that came with the stand.) This is very effective at resonance control and in my system, lowered the noise floor and low level distortion. An additional benefit was improved low frequency extension. This costs ~$200-$250 and is a 'no brainer' upgrade.

After discussion with Lou, I ordered EquaRack low profile footers. I was already familiar with EquaRack's products as an extremely happy owner of two EquaRack equipment stands.

After trying multiple permutations, the best sound comes with the following combination: speaker-maple slab-footers-stand. This was another significant improvement, primarily in image focus and detail retrieval. I would ascribe the improvement more to improved isolation of the speaker. A buddy of mine commented that "the speakers have a better grip on the music" which is a good descriptor. And yes, there was definite synergy with both the footers and maple slab. Low frequency extension and authority was improved. The bass is now visceral. High frequency sibilance has been eliminated. The EquaRack system is not cheap (~$900) but well worth the expense. I have not tried other similar isolation products, so here's hoping someone else will try and report their results.

The improvements do not compromise the fundamental Daedalus 'house sound'. It sounds like a Daedalus, only better! Here's my rationalization for giving this a try (and as Woody Allen says, we all need one good rationalization to make it through the day), if I had auditioned the base Ulysses system and the 'tweaked' Ulysses, I would have happily paid the difference.

Ooops! The maple block is ~$300...sorry for any confusion.

Having taken the plunge and ordered the Da-Rama's at RMAF last weekend, a slight change of direction and some advice please.
Hopefully the speakers are my last and yes I know we all say that, but I mean it, I think! The next question, is a last choice of amplifier, preferably integrated and preferably with tubes somewhere. The obvious answer would be Modwright and they do have an integrated on the horizon, hopefully.
My Viva Solista will do well for now, but in the long term? Some other thoughts were:

One of the Ayon push/pull integrated amps
LSA statement
Jadis DA30/50/88S
Moscode 402, which I very much liked at RMAF
Pathos Logos/Inpol
Accuphase a SS state design , but with tube like sound, to me
Conrad Johnson CA200

Has anyone any thoughts on a combination that seems to work really well? thanks David

The ModWright equipment works quite well with Daedalus speakers. I have no experience with the others on your list.

Congratulations. Like you, I consider my Daedalus speakers my 'last' speakers. You'll love working with Lou.

Jazdoc, does that mean you use Modwright with your speakers? I liked them in both the rooms Daedalus speakers were in, though I thought the Da-Rama's sounded better. I am sure this was to do with room matching. I am not sure about the amps, they seemed to lack the tube magic I am used to, i.e tube colouration I am sure. That is why I was seeking views on alternatives

David12:

What is your budget for the int amp?

Barrelcheif, Say up to $10000, but preferably less, at a discount second hand.

I have not heard all of the amps in your list. However, based on my experience, I'd suspect that you could be very pleased matching your Daedalus speaks with the Moscode power amp or the LSA integrated.

Both of these have been on my short list at one time or another.

Of course, there are other synergy factors that will play into this (front end, cables, preamp, etc.)

I have read about the nice match up of Modwright's new SS power amp with Daedalus speakers. I'd really like to hear how tube amp fans feel about this amp with Daedalus. Does the combo have the "magic" of tubes, or is it still an SS sound?

Please do keep us posted.

Barrelchief,

Sorry I missed your previous post...

I ended up with the Einstein Light In Dark amplifier purchased through Lee Island Audio. The stock amplifier is wonderful but tube rolling takes things to a different level. Currently I have Amperex NOS tubes and dying to try either Siemens CCa or Telefunkens when funds allow.

At its price, the ModWright is excellent with the Daedalus. I know another Ulysses owner who is delighted with Atmasphere M-60 amps.

This weekend, Lou upgraded my speakers with Cardas binding posts which are heartily recommended.

Well, the Da-RMa's with, upgraded PolyCaps have arrived. Unless you look at the website often, you may not realise that Lou has been experimenting with an improved Crossover for some time. I think mine are the first monitors and he maybe working on a pair of Ulysses at the moment, but I am not sure.

I can not give a comparison with the origonal version, which I heard at RMAF last October, too long to remember. All I can say is that I am very happy with them. Just so effortless and dynamic, they sound natural and as Lou says, as near to a Live performance as I have heard from my system.

I had trouble finding speakers my wife could live with, not the sound of course, just the appearance. She teaches Art now, but trained in Interior design, so she is very hard to please. However she loves them. They look wonderful in the quartersawn oak finish we chose. Because of the low total height, they are very unobtrusive too.

So the speakers are a keeper as far as I am concerned.

I live in the UK. If anyone has been interested in the speakers, as I was, then send me a private message, if you would like to hear them

David:

Glad to hear they arrived safely and that you are enjoying the DaRMA's. What amp did you decide to use with them? Keep us posted as you move through the break in period--the sound will change somewhat (for the better) after 100 hours or so. Enjoy!

Dodgealum
For the moment I am sticking with my Viva Solista SET. It sounds great, though the base I feel would appreciate a bit better control. I went to audition an LSA Statement amp today, which was on sale 2nd hand. I have to say I was very dissapointed. It was noisy and lacked a natural, musical sound. I listened to an Ayon amp at the same time, now that was more like it. I guess I have been spoiled by tubes and will have to stick with them.
As for running in, Lou says it is less of an issue. They have been a test bed for the new crossover and are pretty well run in