According to Dennis at D-Sonic, all 3 or more channel amps
use only B&O Ice. All two channel or mono amps use Pascal or
Anaview/Abletec. |
Mapman..the scoop on Abletec..Design Engineer Patrik Bostrom, CTO of Abletec A/S, designed a new technology for
Class D which is a loop linearization technology called AMS,(Adaptive Modulation Servo) which is superior to PWM,
(Pulse Width Modulation)which has been the standard in Class D for years. |
Just got a reply back from Dennis Deacon with D-Sonic..sent
him a letter this morning to confirm he is using the Abletec amps. His answer.." I do not discuss the topologies
used in my amplifiers"...He wouldn't confirm or deny..
The only other company I know of that is using their own
in house Class-D topology is Henry Ho with H2o Audio. Abletec does provide bulk manufacturing for DIY or High End
Companies..so more than likely the Audiophile in a thread I
read last night who stated that Dennis confirmed to him in
late 2011 that he switched to Abletec from B&O is more than likely accurate... |
Ooops..its Dennis Deacon, not Dean Deacon with D-Sonic..must be the New year hangover... |
Correct spelling is Abletec..comapared to Hypex in DIY forums and threads in Europe..check out the Abletec website. Needs to be updated. |
Mapman..Yes..the D-Sonic amp is a newer technology..the SOA
Core amp which is a proprietary design from the bottom up. Nothing to do with B&O. Not an ICE Amp. Dennis explains it all in detail in last September's issue of 6Moons. It is Class D, but a new design. D-Sonic is the first to use these amps. |
WHATS ON THE HORIZON FOR CLASS D IN 2013...put your seatbelts on...
The new New Clear NC1000L amps from Sean Brady in Phoenix
have come out in recent months using the same amp as the Bel Canto REF1000M's, but New Clear has under the hood two
Lundahl transformers from Sweden and other mods. Just got reviewed in Tone Magazine. Got an email last week from Jeff
Dorgay telling me its the best Class D amp he has ever heard and reviewed. Just got the Tone Award for best new amp of the year. From Bel Canto...this is the sizzler..John
Stronczer has had in the works for two years a new ICE amp
hybrid..Its using the same B&O amp he has in his REF1000M
amp but with this major difference which is a break through. An original D.C. high power supply that feeds the ICE amp directly. No pulse width modulation. The switching module has been removed. First of its kind. An Ice amp with
no switching device. Will be released in late Spring. The new Mola-Mola M1's coming out in June from Hypex, The rise
of New Clear from Arizona, The new SOA core amp from
D-Sonic, and the new Bel Canto hybrid, will make 2013 the best year ever for Class D. Exciting stuff! |
Mapman..I mentioned to you several days ago all the info is
available..again..go to the D-Sonic website ans click the
Products tab at the top of the page..then click on the 6Moons picture on the left and it opens up the complete review of the D-Sonic M2-1500M amp from September..it also
interviews Dennis Deacon who explains in full the new
SOA Core amp he uses. It is manufactured from an outside source he will not reveal. |
After digging around..it appears that D-Sonic is using the
Albetec Class-D amps from Scandinavia, which are manufactured in China. They are often compared to Hypex. |
Also..Marten Audio of Sweden uses Albetec Class D amps in their mono blocks. Their amps for class D weigh over 100 pounds each due to their very large power supplies and transformers. |
Its more than that Mapman..as Dennis Deacon explained it..
there are inherent proplems wirh pulse modulation type Class D amps regarding linearity and feed back in the upper bands that compromise music quality which is why alternative modulating designs have popped up in recent years resulting in Class D getting closer than ever to pure
Class A performance. Give it another two years. After all,
Solid state in terms of Pre-Amps has finally surpassed tube performance such as the Robert Koda Takumi K-10 Preamp
which will bury any tube Preamp on planet earth. Within the next three years, Class D solid state amps will surpass
tube amps as well. |
Hmmm...what makes Tube Preamps so special? The bottom line..Tube Preamps exalt at creating an exotic, ultra smooth, seductive, full, three dimensional "FLOATING MIDRANGE", that solid state has yet to achieve until now.
Audio Design Engineer Robert Koch, who specializes in exotic tube design amplification, invented a first time circuit topology called the ITC circuit, known as Inverted
Transconductance Coupling, which eliminates for the first time in a solid state design distortion way below measurable levels, which is one of the several reasons why
Robert's Takumi K-10 solid state Preamp will equal in full
the midrange and treble qualities exclusive to the worlds
finest tube Preamps on the market. Getting off subject. Want to stay focused on Class D topology. |
Oh..so you want your tube amps to sound like tubes..but you
don't want an analog Class D solid state amp to sound like
tubes..Hmmmm..my..just about any tube fanatic on the planet
would put their tube amp in storage or sell it if a solid state Class D amp
reached a level of full tube quality.
There would be no turning back. |
Raks..The Theta Class D mono block you speak of is their
Prometheus amp which uses the new Hypex 1200 amp. Cost for the pair is $12K... |
Nasaman...you obviously have not read through this thread to discover that three years ago D-Sonic was only using the B&O ICE amps in their two channel and mono amps and have switched to the Abletec amps from Sweden in 2011. Read the review from last September in 6Moons on the new D-Sonic M2-1500M mono block amp. Very positive. You can access the review on the D-Sonic website. |
Guido...for the moment, the Pasquale power module is so new that it is not available to anyone. Jeff is the first to use it and has an exclusive on the amp. I was told that a former ICE engineer is the designer. It wouldn't surprise me if Rowland is doing financial backing for this engineer. I noticed you just started a thread on the Continuum Series 2 on What's Best Forum. Look forward to see how that develops. |
Spoke to Rich today, who runs the Abletec branch office in New Jersey, he's currently at CES. He confirmed that indeed D-Sonic is using Abletec amps. He also mentioned that Parasound is premiering at CES a four channel amp using Abletec Class D modules. The amp is the ZM-Quattro. A four channel amp that puts out 90 watts per channel. |
Whats the point?..Stratehed..check your tickets..I think you got on the wrong Airplane..the main focus of this thread is to highlight the engineering advancements in Class-D topology during the past several years such as in house designed switching devices from Abletec, Nuforce, Audio Research, Philips/Hypex, and how these variations of pulse modulation methods have improved the sonics of
Class D amps compared to the more traditional PWM amps that have been around for years. The biggest Class D brute on the market is the Marten M-Amps from Sweden using Abletec amps. They have massive power supplies and very large transformers, weigh a 100 pounds each, run cool and cost a whopping $40K a pair. I dig as deep as possible speaking to engineers from a variety of companies, but the most reliable source to get the most honest and accurate assessment of these products is not from the magazines, but from the many Audiophiles who purchase these products and give their evaluations on many forums and threads on sites in Europe, Asia, and the States that are just as well respected as Audiogon. I communicate on these sites daily as well as other Gon members to get a much broader picture of the current landscape of high end audio. I predict that the most talked about and exciting Class D product of the year will be the new Theta Prometheus Class D amp which has been delayed but should be available shortly. It was sad to see Ice H2O go out of business because Henry Ho's Class D amps with major upgrades with his large transformers and large capacitor banks were very promising. |
Got an email from Dennis Deacon with D-Sonic today acknowledging my talk with Abletec that he's using Abletec amps. He evaluated and listened to Class D amps from different companies including Hypex and found the Abletec amps superior. |
Thanks for the correction H2o..I read on a forum from 2010 that Henry went belly up. Tried to go to the IceH2o site and it was off line. Called the east coast phone number at the 804 area code for H2o and was disconnected. What is the current website address? No current site comes up on Google...the on going site address in the past was IceH2oaudio.com..nothing there.. |
Just being logical..phone number is disconnected and website is offline..what is one to think?.. |
I know its you Henry!!...what happened to your website?? |
Well Henry..I tried connecting on Google, Yahoo, Babylon, Bing..ain't gettin nuttin!... |
Henry..are you still using B&O ICE or have you switched up to Hypex or Abletec? |
Deadlyvj..my intent starting this thread, was to engage those who may have experienced D-Sonic, with the emphasis as Guido points out, on the Abletec amp modules, which are just now being recognized as an alternative to B&O and Hypex. So far, it appears at the moment not very many have experienced D-Sonic and Abletec, since I was hoping to get a much greater response. Now that the holiday and CES is over, I hope this thread will increase reply activity on Abletec, and if this thread winds up becoming a "Class-D Cafe", thats a good thing to... |
The last sales feedback to Henry/IceH2o on Gon was way back on October 20, 2010. It appears his business is in survival mode. |
Henry..last time on the subject..want to stay focused on D-Sonic/Abletec. Discovered that IceH2oaudio.com ISP is hosted by Covad Communications which was bought out by Megapath Communications. Called Megapath and they do not have IceH2oaudio in their system and informed me that its a domain name that is available to purchase. The current location for IceH2oaudio.com is in Lutherville Timonium, Maryland. Ring a bell?.. |
The Abletec amps in the D-Sonic products use a modulation technique called phase shift modulation rather than pulse width modulation...interesting.. |
Bill-k...give me a break..Henry's website is currently offline for sometime and his phone number is disconnected which is a very strong buisness indication that his business is stressed. When a company fall's off the radar it becomes a ghost business, and the result is a much greater risk for the buyer to get reliable service from a business that has very weak stability. If Henry comes back online and things go back to normal, then more power to him. |
Henry...my apologie's..your back online and now in Texas..Giddyup!! |
Guido..thanks for bringing to my attention in the Merrill Veritas thread the correct spelling of "Pasquale", which is Pascal. As I indicated in the Merrill Veritas thread, the Pascal class-D amps on the Pascal website and the photos on Google images are identical to the amps inside the D-Sonic models. Abletec in New Jersey stated that D-Sonic is using Abletec which may well be in a certain D-Sonic model, but the interior pics of the D-Sonic top models are definitely Pascal judging by the photos. |
Henry..I thoroughly read through your site last night and all the reviews. I noticed you amps have an input impedance of only 8000 ohms. Wow thats low! Never seen an amp below 10K ohms. Curious as to why you don't adjust the input stage to raise the input impedance to make it easier for Preamps to drive your amps. Have you explored the recent developments of alternative current modulation from Abletec and Hypex, and do you have any plans to use their products in the near future, or do you think their approach to alternative modulation is nothing more than snake oil? |
Interesting Henry..I noticed your Fire preamp has a very low output impedance of 20 ohms, which matches perfectly with your amps. Never seen a Preamp with an output impedance that low. |
Since this thread is focused on Abletec/D-Sonic, as well as Hypex and other's, another newer Class-D switching technology just popped up. Phew!! hard to keep up with.
The Jeff Rowland Group had a private showing of their new Class-D integrated amp at CES, which is called the Continuum Series Two. No longer using B&O Ice Amps that where in the Continuum 500. The new integrated will be using the new Pasquale Class-D amps, exclusive only to Rowland. Rowland said at CES they are far superior to the B&O ICE technology. The integrated will be released in April and will put out 400 watts into 8 ohms. |
It appears that B&O has not moved beyond pulse width modulation, which is the area that amp enigineers have focused on in recent years claiming that PWM has hit its limit regarding the problems with PWM such as feedback and noise in the upper frequencies, as well as RFI/EMI problems. The only Class-D company that has fallen by the wayside and gone out of business was TriPath. Abletec, Hypex and the others are doing very well. Lets see whats in store for Pasquale. It appears based on my discussions with these company sources, that newer, alternative modulating techniques have resulted in zero feedback, much better linearity, and lower noise bringing Class-D much closer to the very best Class A and A/B SS and tube amps. |
True..but John Stronczer at Bel canto does extensive mods and upgrades to correct that problem. As a stock amp, the problem is their and can only be corrected with additional filters and shielding. The newer stock designs from Abletec and Hypex don't have that problem and the in house class D devices from Audio Research and Nuforce seem to overcome those issues as well. B&O ICE amps have been in production since 1999, and recently companies such as Jeff Rowland and D-Sonic have dropped B&O in favor of newer Class-D engineering that is more advanced with less technical problems. |
I noticed on B&O's ICE power website that they are in need of engineers and are taking job applications. I found out this morning that the new Pasquale Class-D amps that Jeff Rowland will be using are designed by former B&O engineers. |
Thanks Guido fot the info..very excited for the Series 2. Have a feeling that Jeff just may hit one out of the park on this one. Any clue on the MSRP? |
Mcbuddah..please keep us informed on your progress with the D-Sonic amps. Of course, only having them burned in for four days, you have a long way to go and are in for a real treat based on the 6Moons review last September. After extensive burn in, 6Moons described the amps as more organic and full, with much smoother, more laid back high frequencie's, then other class D amp's they have tested, and found them closer to tubes then previous Class D design's. I'm certain in two weeks the amps will settle down and fall into their true character and look forward to your on going impressions in the next several weeks. |
Guido..Its mentioned on the Rowland website that the discontinued Continuum 500 also used the Capri circuit. I checked out many interior photo's of the Continuum 500 and was amazed how extensive the mods were. Two circuit boards stacked on top of each other. The ICE amps were upside down and accessed from the bottom. The top board has a dozen large power capacitors and two filter caps. The most extensive mods I've ever seen using ICE amps. Way beyond the mods in the Bel Canto's. If the mods are just as extensive with the Pasqualle Class-D amps, and the sound quality is superior as told by Rowland, it will more than likely turn out to be the best integrated on the market due to Jeff's perfectionism. |
As I recently indicated in another thread, Jeff Rowland has
jumped on the Pascal band wagon with two new Class D products that will be released in several weeks. Brandon Kelley at Rowland recently confirmed to me that Pascal is used in the new Continuum S2 Integrated at $9500.00 and the
new 525 class D stereo amp at $4500.00 which can also be ordered as a pair of mono's for $9000.00. With the mods that Jeff has added to the Pascal amps, results in a better
performing product than the ICE amps that Rowland has used in the past. These products can be viewed in the new 2013 Rowland Catalog which can be downloaded from their site. |
As I already indicated..D-Sonic is using Pascal amplifiers in their newest models as well as Jeff Rowland using Pascal
in his new mono blocks and his new Continuum S2 integrated. So much going on this year with Class D including the anticipated Bel Canto Class D amp without switching transistors which has an original DC power supply. In the works for two years. First of its kind. |
Guido..does the Veritas performance justify their ridiculously high price of $12K a pair? Phew!!
For the money, their Cardas knob type speaker binding posts
are hard to work with compared to the WBT five way posts on other class D amps which are better for locking banana's.
The new D-Sonic M3 800s that came out in recent months at 400 watts per channel and only $1375.00 would be a good amp for you to review as well or is its price to low to deserve the attention to review? |
Another Class D amp to consider for review also is the Arion Audio MK 1000 mono amps. |
Bruno Putzeys during the past year has made the statement that his "Advanced Technology" with his newest Ncore/Hypex designs spins circles around other linear amplifiers on the market. Hmmm...sounds like Hype-X to me. That may have been true six years ago when the only challenge Bruno had to face were the designs from B&O and Tripath. He addressed the issues regarding feedback problems in the upper bands of those designs and the noise floor. During the past two years great advancements have been made as well by very bright engineer's with Pascal and Abletec, as well as the very innovative in house switching designs by DAT and their Cherry Ultra mono amps, Arion Audio, Nuforce and their Reference 18's, the DS450M from Audio Research which has the second largest power supply in the world for a Class D amp, the Marten M-amp from Sweden is #1 for the largest power supply for a Class D amp on the market. 2013 is the most explosive year ever for new Class D amp designs, and I think Bruno's pair of Mola-Mola amps and his Preamp selling for $25K for the complete system is going to be a hard sell given whats on the market this year at a much lower price point which will yield the same performance results. |
A recent phone conversation with Dennis Deacon at D-Sonic, he mentioned the M2 and M3 series top models use the same amps. Based on recent interior pics I came across, the M3 600M mono blocks are using Abletec amps and the M3 1500M mono blocks are using Pascal amps. |
Yessiree bob!!..gonna git me a pair of dem Veritas amps made from a solid billet of aircraft aluminum thats used by Boeing and Airbus!! Golly gee Ma..can we go to the airport right now?..If your one of those customers who got fooled buying a 22 lb. block of fancy aluminum with five pounds of Hype-X/Ncore innards for $12K a pair, than I have some great swamp land I can sell you in Puerto Rico. Just spent an hour on the phone with Dennis Deacon of D-Sonic, who has tested, listened and evaluated the Ncore amp modules as well as the models from Abletec, B&O, and Pascal. His team built a custom ordered amp for a customer with a Ncore amp module. Dennis states the Ncore amp from Bruno is a great amp but the Pascal is a superior design and a better performer and agreed that Bruno was at the forefront five years ago but not any more with with better innovative Class D designs that have emerged in recent years from other companies. The current M3 series from D-Sonic will give you better Class D performance than Ncore at a fraction of the cost if you don't mind the plain jane cabinet. Use a high quality power cord and your good to go. |
Chill out Bro..you need to put out the fire under your butt. Jealous? How absurd. I don't buy into anymore the audio snobbery that reviewers continue to perpetuate that you have to spend gobs of money to get the best performance
from an amplifier. That was true ten years ago but not today. Six months ago I had an extended conversation with Brandon at Rowland regarding Jeff using Pascal exclusively in his mono and integrrated amps. Rowland has indeed evaluated and tested different Class D amps including Ncore and chose Pascal. As I said, if you want to spend $12K for a pair of mono amps with a 22 lb. aluminium chassis with five lbs. of electronics in each, I have some swamp land in Puerto Rico I can sell you. Bruno is not the Messiah of Class D as many of his cult followers claims he is, who ignore the advancements of other Class D engineers who are on equal ground with Putzeys and have advanced further ahead as well. |
I was referring to Rowland's current Class D amps only and the info provided by Brandon. Previous Rowland Class D amps using B&O ICE are out of production. Rowland currently only has three Class D models in production. The 525 and the 125 that are stereo Class D amps and the Continuum S2 integrated all using Pascal power modules. |
Thanks for correcting me Guido...my mistake..I'm aware of the 525 being bridgeable since
last winter and was thinking of it as a mono amp. Also, I was incorrect on the 125, just spoke to Brandon at Rowland and the 125 is using the latest generation of ICE from B&O and not Pascal as in the other two models. |
