Yes in series. Cal, good analogy and explanation.
Charles |
Agree with David. It will definitely "work" with the Nenuphar. There’s certainly the possibility that it may do more than merely work and sound good as a pairing. The point is the Coda Technologies # 8 is designed as a high current capable amplifier that doubles its wattage when speaker impedance in halved from 8 to 4 ohms. These kinds of amplifiers usually are low output impedance designs with generous levels of NFB.
It uses 20 transistors per channel to accomplish this. The Nenuphar was designed for a very different type of amplifier topology and circuits. You just never know how these pairings may actually sound. So the obvious key is listening to this match and make a determination.
Best of luck coot,
Charles |
Hi greenhorn20,
Congratulations on acquiring the Nenuphars and thanks for sharing your very happy outcome with us here. I have no doubt at all that the Viva Solistino and Nenuphars sound positively Devine. Your have made some excellent purchasing decisions. I can certainly imagine the emotionally engaging music listening experience is fantastic.
Charles |
Hi David,
At one time I gave serious consideration to Vaughn speakers (RAAL ribbon/Fostex 8" wide range driver) and the Tonian Lab Classic 12.1 (Which utilized the legendary French 12" PHY wide range driver) to pair with my 300b mono blocks. I didn’t know you had a direct listening experience with the Vaughn. Very interesting. David what amplifier were you using with them ?
In my opinion it is very high praise indeed to say you prefer the Nenuphar to the Vaughn with RAAL ribbon tweeter for human voice reproduction. Midrange and vocals were said to be a strength of the Classic 12.1. as well.
Charles |
Hi greenhorn20,
Nice choice of speaker color and it makes an attractive contrast to the color of the driver cone. BTW I really like the rich elegant color of the Viva Solistino. A nice room overall. Absolutes no doubt that your system sounds marvelous.
Charles |
Hi abd1,
One thing to keep in mind is you don’t require a lot of power to very effectively drive your Nenuphars. The Line Magnetic 508ia is definitely going to generate heat. The 805 is a high power DHT output tube that demands a very high voltage (1000V) power supply. 48 watts pure class A circuit is by necessity going to create some heat, that’s unavoidable.
Your current el 84 push pull amplifier should be a very good match. If interested in a SET I’d look for a really good quality 2A3, PX 25 or 3000b. The Nenuphar doesn’t require an amplifier with negative feedback (NFB) due to the very damped driver.
Compared to your current amplifier a good SET may likely provide more of the tone and texture you desire. It can possibly be more holographic and tactile in presentation as well.
These lower power DHT SETs don’t generate much heat output either. If ever there’s a good time to explore a SET amplifier you have an excellent opportunity via your Nenuphars. They are designed specifically for these SET amplifiers even though they work well with other amplifier types for certain.
Charles |
@david_ten
I like the placement of your Nenuphars well into the room. It provides them plenty of room to breathe and perform at their best. The amplifiers have an attractive understated elegance.
Charles
|
Based on the provided specifications (Modest level of NFB =6 and relatively low damping factor=10 and probably less into the 6 ohm Nenuphar) suggest a favorable match with the Nenuphars.
Charles |
Hi keithr,
If I'm correct your experience with high sensitivity and efficient speakers has been predominantly Zu Audio.i am not questioning your encounters with them and various amplifiers. I believe that the Cube Audio Nenuphar though not as sensitive as the Zu are an easier load to drive in real life/actual use.
People seem to have more success with low power SET driving Nenuphars compared to these same amplifiers paired with some Zu models. I believe that Srajan Ebaen alluded to this observation in his 6 Moons review of the Nenuphar. I understand that its 92 db sensitivity may lead some to question compatibility with low power SET amplifiers. Numerous reviews and owners feedback say otherwise.
Charles |
The OP of this thread david_ten uses the Found Music 2A3 SET mono blocks with stellar performance results. No doubt room size and ultimate listening levels are variables. Cube Audio pairs the Nenuphar with 45 and 2A3 SET amplifiers (Usually Tektron brand) at audio shows throughout Europe. These pairings consistently receive high praise.
Charles |
@rwpollock
I had first generation Elrogs a few years ago that were exceptionally good sounding but unfortunately unreliable. That's all been resolved now. The current production versions you have are likely an improvement In sound so they are superb I'm sure. Must sound exquisite hearing the new Elrogs via the Nenuphar. Surely a different sonic presentation versus the Enleum.
Charles
|
Larry,
The damping factor and amplifier output impedance considerations were discussed in ample detail in the original Nenuphar review in 6 Moons several years ago. The driver designer and builder explains why this approach was chosen. Probably explained on their website as well.
Charles |
Hi Stephen,
Thanks as always for providing your listening impressions and observations. I've been involved in enough cable comparisons over the years and know without question the positive impact high quality cables can impart in an audio system.
I acknowledge there are those who would write off what you've heard and refuse to believe that cables/conditioners are capable of providing this degree of sonic impact. That's their problem, not yours. I have no doubt that your system is sounding simply marvelous. You continue to discover how exceptional the Nenuphars truly are.
Charles |
David,
That link you posted brought back pleasant memories . Mike Lavigne bringing the Found Music 2A3 SET mono blocks to my and other audiophiles attention. State of the art design and built quality to implement by all accounts an exquisite sounding amplifier.
Now this will be taken to the next level as an all out assault 4 chassis amplifier with even better output transformers, separate power supply chassis per channel. The Nenuphars will extract every bit of performance these amplifiers have to offer. Very exciting times ahead. This will be fun!
Charles |
Hi cal,
Looking at those design parameters and build choices/decisions for these new 2A3 amplifiers, Scott is pushing for the absolute pinnacle of SET sound quality. David is going to be astonished with the completed product.
Charles |
@dlcockrum
Thanks for your input. The comments are logical and make utter sense.
Charles
|
Hi Mike,
Thanks for sharing your fabulous outcome, sincere congratulations. People who look at the Nenuphar as merely a single driver speaker and question its value just simply miss the point. A speaker doesn’t require multiple drivers, weigh 300-400 pounds with measured bass to 20 HZ in order to be considered superb. There are alternative paths to achieving sonic excellence.
Charles |
@abd1,
Frankly I am impressed with the sound quality you have achieved given the obvious compromised speaker positioning that circumstances have dictated. Commendable the Nenuphars are performing this well.
If you could some how managed to improve the speaker placement I believe that you would increase the Nenuphar's performance substantially.
Charles |
@stephendunn
This should be interesting
Indeed! As always I'm looking forward to your listening impressions. This should be quite informative.
Charles
|
Cal,
Yes, Nelson Pass has thoroughly demonstrated his acumen of designing and building excellent amplifiers across a very wide power spectrum.
He's enjoyed remarkable success with his Pass Labs amplifiers. Yet I find his explorations via the First Watt line of amplifiers so intriguing. He obviously has a deep passion for these special amplifiers given the multiple models/versions He has developed (And continues to do so) over the years. Every one of them is uniquely different from their siblings.
Charles |
@kw6,
If you’re ever able to hear both the Magico A3 and Nenuphar (Each respectively driven by an appropriately matched amplifier) I would be quite interested in your listening impressions. Those two speakers are so different and at near opposite ends of the spectrum in regard to their design. I imagine that they sound very different from one another.
Charles |
Cal,
Absolutely right about the non Commercial DIY offerings. A few years ago Nelson Pass designed a push pull version of the of the stereo S.I.T. 2 at 35 watts pure class A circuit. A generous Audiogon member loaned me his for a period of 3 weeks.
This was a really good sounding amplifier and actually one of the best transistor amplifiers I’ve heard. Just terrific with my Coincident speakers. Directly compared to my Frankenstein MK II 300b SET there were very similar characteristics. Switched the amplifiers twice over the 3 week period for direct listening comparisons.
I could have lived contently (very) with the D.I.Y. S.I.T. 2 amplifier.
But when the SET is put back in the audio system there’s just more 3 dimensional tactile- reach out and touch aura. A bit richer tonality and fuller more fleshed out vibe is present. Ultimately more emotionally engaging . The basic stuff I find that SET simply does better. I know however that some listeners would prefer the other excellent amplifier.
@toetapaudio I’ve never heard the Bakoon amplifier but reviews and word of mouth say they’re quite splendid. I don’t doubt they could go toe to toe with the First Watt (F.W.) No question the F.W. built by the esteemed Nelson Pass are far more known within the High End audio community and thus mentioned more often.
Charles |
Stephen,
I used the Takatsuki 300b in my amplifier for 3 or 4 years and it is superb!
I never bothered with the W,E. Vintage 300b as they were astronomical in price (Takatsuki and Elrog were as far as I was willing to spend ,1800.00 pair range at that time). I did try a pair of W.E. re-issue circa 1990s vintage but was disappointed with them.
I’ve heard various Magico speakers in their Q and S series (Most experience with the S5). Just my own 2 cents worth, I’d be surprised if the Magico A3 were more ’neutral ’ or more importantly ’natural ’ than the Nenuphar. This is based on nothing more than a personal hunch just to be clear. I’d relish the opportunity to heard them in a direct comparison. They are by design so remarkably different objectively and really philosophically. Oh would that be a highly interesting listening session.
Charles |
Well if that's the case in regard to Bakoon , that's quite a handicap to deal with in a highly competitive High End audio marketplace. Too bad, as I noted above based solely on sound quality criteria it is considered to be exceptionally good. It seems that the Bakoon deserves a better fate.
Charles |
Hi Stephen,
Your VR integrated has outperformed formidable competition in your system in direct comparison. There's no better way to determine what's best other than actual listening experiences. You've found outstanding synergy in your amplifier and Nenuphar pairing. I think that's fantastic!
Through personal experience I know how superb the Elrog 300b sounds.
The VR offers easy switching of various DHT tubes. Are you tempted to experiment with other tubes or is the Elrrog so good that you'll leave well enough alone?
Charles |
@ag3,
If you do purchase a Bakoon 13R amplifier and have the time (And inclination) would you post your listening impressions? I believe there are folks on this thread who’d be very interested.
Charles |
@ag3_,
Miraculously this thread has avoided agitating trolls, keyboard warriors and rude and disrespectful behavior, what a welcome relief.
The LTA Ultra Linear compared to the Bakoon 13R is very interesting as there’re such distinct differences between them. It’d be fun and informative to hear them driving your Tannoys or the Nenuphars. As this thread has substantiated, there are numerous good quality amplifiers to consider pairing with the Nenuphars.
Charles |
I also noticed the absence of identifying associated amplifiers and found that odd given the unique matching considerations for the Nenuphars. Still overall a good review as I believe the reviewer captured the essence of these exceptionally special speakers.
I feel that Srajan Ebaen's 6 Moons review of the Cube Audio Nenuphar is the most compehensive.
1 In depth technical description with ample commentary from the designer/builder.
2 Effective use of metaphors and analogies (IMHO, I know some don't like his verbose writing style) in his very detailed subjective listening impressions.
3 Taking the the time to use multiple/different amplifiers paired with the Nenuphars and then clearly describing each separate pairing.
4. Comparing the sonic character of the Nenuphars with other familiar speakers he holds in high regard in his listening room and review audio system.
Charles |
@ abd,
Congratulations on acquiring the Nenuphar Mini speakers. Based on your listening impressions it seems with exception of one specific sonic parameter (Bite and slam) the sound quality is outstanding! Trying some other amplifiers for comparison is an excellent idea.
Based on your description with use of the Canary M 90 300b push pull it strikes me that you are 95% there as it is. It leads me to wonder if trying different tubes (300b and/or 6SN7) or power cable/interconnects might rectify the "bite and slam" concern. Which as you described is just a "touch" short.
Something to think about because otherwise the Canary M 90 +Nenuphar pairing appears to be an exceptionally good pairing (Unless there’s something I’m missing). You used the terms "sublime" "surreal" "fantastic" and that’s very telling in my opinion. The positive attributes you have noted are hard for many to achieve.
Charles |
Reading the WBF thread comments I don't doubt that the Wolf Von Lang SON speaker is highly impressive. I am not surprised that some listeners will prefer it to the Nenuphar. It could be better than the Nenuphar in some respects to some listeners. No doubt though that the converse is true. What single audio product is chosen by everyone and scores 10 Of 10 in every sonic parameter and lacks any critical dissenters?
I would accept both are quite excellent with their own sets of strengths and relative shortcomings. I've read enough comments the last 2 years to conclude that the Nenuphars are very capable with a very broad spectrum of music genres. I don't believe that there's an existing speaker that presents every genre of music with equal aplomb at a sublime level. This isn't realistic.
Charles |
Hi cal,
Yes, that’d be an ideal option to have. Agree, both excellent ( Cube Audio/Coincident ) but quite different head units /monitors. I read the WBF link and and related thread on reasonable sized horn speakers for modest room dimensions.
Once a high quality level of speakers is reached everyone has their particular favorite brand. Some mentioned were,
Wolf Von Lang
Viking Audio
Odeon Audio
Diesis Audio
Tobias Sound Systems
Horning Audio
I would bet each one is excellent and will appeal to different tastes. So truly impossible to say one is clearly better than the rest.
Without question Cube Audio could easily be added to this list. Not a horn speaker but one that’s suited to similar amplifier requirements.
It just depends on what sonic characteristics one is pursuing.
They will all appeal to those listeners who are in the camp of high quality lower power amplifiers paired with high quality easily driven speakers..
Charles |
Cal,
Yes KeithR has quite the extensive listening, ownership and auditioning history. On WBF there’s a core of about 12 to 15 people who contribute roughly 75- 80% of the posts and content. However they collectively have vast experience and are consistently interesting to read. Morricab, bonzo 75, spiritofmusic, etc.
They can differ significantly in opinion from one another but the courteous mutual respect and appreciation never wavers. I admire that about them. Trolling isn’t nearly as pervasive on WBF as this site. There was a time when Audiogon had quite similar decorum.
Charles |
@paullb,
Good question.
Stephendunn uses the Vinnie Rossi integrated amplifier which is low output impedance and thus relatively high damping factor. He has achieved outstanding results.
david_ten uses the Found Music 2A3 SET which has a high output impedance and thus a low damping factor. He gets outstanding results driving the Nenuphars. The designer of the Nenuphar is pretty adamant in regard to what type of amplifiers he had in mind during development.
My takeaway is there are certainly additional factors involved that ultimately determine the degree of sucess of an amplifier paired with this speaker.
Charles |
Hi Stephen,
Yes I recall you are using a resistor (Further improvement). Prior to that weren’t you experiencing very good SQ results with the stock Vinnie Rossi amplifier/Nenuphars?
Charles
|
Hello Keith,
You are welcome. By chance have you heard any Horning Audio speakers? I heard their Euphrodite model about 6 years ago at CES in the High Water Sound room and liked them quite a bit. Just curious on your take.
Charles |
Keith,
I heard a Cessaro speaker in Jeff's (High Water Sound) room driven by Tron components back around 2013. I don't recall the specific model (Fairly large size and expensive ) but the overall sound was exceptionally good.
When I heard the Horning Euphrodite they were driven by the Electra-Print DRD SET amplifier . Jeff was playing really good quality vinyl jazz at a reasonable sound level. Beautiful and with a very tactile/presence character.
Charles |
Hi Cal,
Not at all surprised you'd appreciate it. Yes, definitely a niche there for SET/low power amplifiers paired with high efficiency speakers. Also you have the more common high power solid state amplifiers/lower efficiency speaker crowd. But what's good is they don't spend time denigrating each other's choices. Very good knowledge and listening experiences shared on WBF.
This is a very good thread (Thankfully) but just not sure why the trolling and disrespectful discourse has become more prevalent on Audiogon. Seems to be worsening.
Charles |
@debjit_g,
There’s been sufficient evidence posted here and elsewhere that people have had much success with low power amplifiers paired with the Nenuphars. However everyone must rely on their personal experiences and circumstances.
The Line Magnetic 805 SET gets consistent high praise and seems to be an excellent amplifier for many listeners. In your situation given your direct exposure with both amps, the Line Magnetic is the better choice for your room environment.
I believe that in general Jon’s advice is accurate regarding the S.I.T. 3 . You have to decide based on what you’ve heard in your home space. Stephendunn had the S.I.T. 3 but found better results with his Vinnie Rossi integrated amplifier. Individual circumstances dictate outcomes. The OP David gets superb results using a 2a3 SET, so it just depends on numerous factors.
Charles |
@ debjit_g,
Absolutely agree that the listening room space and its acoustic character is vitally important and influential. I don’t want to speak for David (He’s eminently capable of doing so himself) . His listening space isn’t small and he has two far more powerful amplifiers in his home. He says without any doubt that the 3.5 watt 2A3 SET mono blocks are the best sounding match. But again, your situation may present key differences. David chime in😊.
Charles |
Prof,
If you ever have the opportunity to hear the Nenuphars in a well set up system I’d like to read your thoughts. I’ve enjoyed and appreciate your listening impressions posted this site.
Charles |
@vinpic,
Congratulations!
I haven’t come across Nenuphar owners complaining about the bass reproduction but I’m sure yours is exactly as you describe with the Cube Audio subwoofer. You find the passive Icon preferable to the Vinnie Rossi DHT linestage? That unit gets nothing but universal raves (And well deserved to my understanding).
I’m happy for your successful results.
Charles |
Hi @ prof,
Ironically the owners of the Nenuphars and professional reviewers point out it’s the ’lack’ of a "Lowther" shout/signature that draws them to the speakers (Amongst other sonic characteristics). It seems that actual listening experiences may be the vital factor that shapes an impression
Charles |
Referring to whatsbestforum.com the audio forums specifically.
Charles |
@vinpic,
Thank you for your reply, I now more clearly understand the passive Icon replacing the Vinnie Rossi active DHT Line stage. The analogy comparing the Bakoon13R and S.I.T.3 is very effective and clarifies their different sonic presentations.
Very interested in your listening impression of the incoming Valvet amplifier. I saw elsewhere on this forum you’ve had the Ypsilon integrated amplifier. You have certainly had/heard your share of really fine quality audio equipment. Sound Kaos? Nice! I look forward to reading more of your posts.
Charles |
@vinpic,
Agree with David that favorable comparison to the Ypsiplon is high praise. Valvet amplifiers are consistently well regarded.
Charles |
Stephen,
What you discovered makes sense. Your two different speaker cables could have relative meaningful differences in their gauge, resistance and capacitance. These variables could definitely affect/ impact the total amount of the damping factor (DF). The final DF value factors in speaker impedance and speaker cable contributions (And obviously amplifier output impedance) . Just goes to show how valuable our ears are. You clearly heard a change.
Charles |
@jollytinker,
Congratulations on your excellent outcome. I recall reading the 6 Moons review of the Thoress amplifier. No doubt about Srajan Ebaen's admiration for the unit.
Charles |
@stephendunn
I go back and forth and sometimes I have to look up and see which one I've got playing to know for sure.
Quite the complement for both amplifiers!
Thanks for taking the time to post your very insightful listening impressions. Truly a situation where either choice is a homerun.
Charles
|
There is definitely a distinction between acquiring a "natural" patina and rust. 🙂
Charles
|
@david_ten
You are committed to the digital streaming format and you possess an exceptional home audio system. Why not endeavor to extract the best sound available for your front end source? The magnificent Taiko Extreme was the idea music server choice for you. It has unquestionably elevated the sheer enjoyment of you listening to music . Case closed. Congratulations!!!
Charles
|
