Counterpoint SA-5000 or First Sound Presence Pre

Bemopti123, just because you never own a SA-5000 it doesn't mean that it is not as good as the other. Same goes for other 30 different top preamps that are up there and you have not heard. As far as reliability goes, we have 5 SA-5000s among our local friends and never had any issue. I had SA-2 head amp and never had any issue. Got to be open minded.

jes45@aol.com, based on your preference, you liked big open sound like the ARC SP-11 MKII and CATs Ultimate and SL MKIII. I wouldn't said that First Sound is in a different league but rather in different sound. Audio is so subjective that I always recommend everything you need to hear first hand before you buy anything. If a buyer don't know what he's looking to get then I would always suggest him don't buy anything at all because he'll never be satisfy. As far as your SA5000 goes, sorry to hear that you got much issue with it. I have yet to hear any preamp that's best at every play back.

I think it is subjective at this point. Unless you have both unit on hand and same time with the right combination, it is hard to give a real good evaluation based on your believe. Also, 5000 is far more superior than 3000 so you can't really draw conclusion base on 3000 because it is a totally different product. One thing for sure, newer products suppose to be better in technology but sonic wise is subjective. I currently own 6 different preamps and 5 different amps and I do find something different and something I like about each one.

5000 is more for more seductive sound. It is known for seductive musical characteristic and not for dynamic or pace or pin point imaging sharpness. The 5000 will make all music sound nice and gentle but not to the point where it become muddy or smear. That's why they choose tube retification in the power supply. It is in the class of its own. In audio, it is either you like it or you prefer something else. There is no real answer for every question about musical preference. If you can affort it, why not own both?

Mike, you should own a SA5000 first then you can speak of reliability. SA5000 is a full function including MM/MC stage. It also use only 2 tubes for line stage.

Hi Mikesinger, it is not cost effective to produce hi end gear when the market is so small. Home theather and internet are part of the new hobbies people enjoy. Spending over $3000 on a preamp is out of question for most of the audiophiles these days. Many folks believe they don't need preamp when they can do just fine by using high output CD player direct into the amp.

I'm pretty sure every company have defective equipments. How many percent is consider normal? It depends. On the average, 5% defective rate is quite normal in the computer industry. As I said before, we have 5 units of SA5000s here among me and my friends and none of them ever gone bad. I agree that the earlier side mount tube socket counterpoint unit has weak chasis, but the SA5000 era was improved with top mount tube sockets. As far I as I known, my friend's Audible illision 3A more trouble than the SA5000. The tubes died quickly in less than 2 years. The unit always very hot with smeared sound and extremely tube sensitive. Not to mentioned the customer service is terrible (confirmed by at least 5 dealers here in NYC.) I don't know about you but I don't think Audible illusion is doing any better job than Counterpoint. I do own both Arc SP-11 MKII and SA5000 and both units were top at their times. Why are Japanese audiophiles think highly of SA5000 sound? It must have its attractive characteristic they recognize that other preamps don't offer. Especially the price you get for an used SA5000 with execellent MM/MC stage, you can probably only get a decent phono stage and you need to spend at least another $2000 for line stage.
If you have not noticed in the past 10 years, all the good audio gears has gone to far east. Please don't tell me that all these folks have no ears and can't tell the difference between good or bad.

You can be as subjective as you want but there are still many Counterpoint SA5000 fans out there that stands by it.

ps I never said First Sound is bad so I don't see why folks need to attack Counterpoint to make themselves feel better about their stuff is far more superior than everything else. Sometimes I questioned if these folks are trying to keep their equipment's resale value higher by bashing other products. This is just my speculation in general and nothing against anyone who post something against the SA5000.

jes45@aol.com, in case you have not noticed, most of hi-fi shops are slowly going out of business. It has to do with lack of interest and customer rather than just on reliability factor. I also heard rumors that Audio Research is filing for chapter eleven. The small shops are the ones that can really survive. Since there are almost no overhead for small shops, they don't need to borrow much money from the bank.
I would like to suggest that it is your view and not common knowledge that all the Counterpoint gears are unreliable. I think the marketing has more to do than reliability. I believe that Counterpoint lost the market share has a lot to do with product choice. They did quite well before they moved to SS equipment.

Hi jes45@aol.com,
It didn't offend me. I'm pretty sure that it was not just me got lucky. I personally own 3 piece of counterpoint product and never had issues. I also have 4 other friends who owns counterpoint SA5000 and never had any issue. Usually the folks who are unhappy speak the loudest. So I still believe the defective rate is not that high.
I had a brand new Bryston amp for 6 month and one channel busted on me so I sent it back for repair. Bryston's services is excellent and the amp works great afterward. I wouldn't say the Bryston is unreliable because of this incident.
I sold the Bryston and switched to tube gear because of preference and not based on failure issue.

I think I had enough of this reliability discussion that we should call it quit. Each of you can say anything you wish but you can only experience the equipment's capability or reliability by owning one.

easy there Mikesinger... I'm a minority : )