Counterpoint and Mike Elliot

No, I am sorry I don't know about the upgrades. But, what is your opinion of the counterpoint sa-11 versus let's say the ref 1 or 2 or 2mk2 versus the space tech lab stuff, and please dwell on the critical personality [discernable listening] factors, thanks, good-bye.

redsun, btw, thanks for the input. i think i'm a diehard all-tube person so i'm leaning away from the other counterpoint models at this time. tubeg, thanks also. i'll look for that thread. believe it or not i did find an sa-11. it's expensivo though: $2500 plus $780 for the new tubes the guy just got. ay chihuahua.

Kubla, it seems Albert Porter mentioned once in a thread that he had an SA-11. Might e-mail him. Good luck in finding one.

ok, now i'm also interested in comments on the counterpoint SA-11 preamp. (I originally thought the SA-5.1 was the only all tube design they had)

anybody?

I would like to say that I have had the upgrade made to an SA-5000. The total package cost me $3150, including a mint used SA-5000. I decided go this path because I wanted a 6922 based pre-amp, I wanted a detached power supply, and I wanted the tube count to be low. This eliminates quite a few pre-amps. Also, Mike's facility is close to me so I could hand carry the unit.

My direct experience with other pre-amps is with a C-J PV-5, owned since new. In my system the PV-5 with Sylvania GB 3-mica 5751's is lush, rich and coloful, with a good soundstage. But I was having to use silver IC's to raise the hi-freq's up out of darkness.

The stock SA-5000 easily trounced PV-5 w/Sylvania GB's. The SA-5000 had more air, better control of the bass, and more specificty in the mid-range. This was with Sovtek 6922's.

After the upgrade, there was more of everything. I can hear the "intent" of the musician better now. On certain recordings, the soundstage kind of washes over the ceiling of my listening room. The imaging is more continuous front to back, top to bottom. Bass is tight and defined (I am using SS amps).

This is a great little pre-amp to experiment with 6922/7308/CCa's with. You have one each for the line stage, and two in the power supply, along with a 6CA4 and a 12AX7. (The phono stage uses 2 6922's, also.) Each tube contributes its own sonic signature. I've settled on Siemens 7308's in the power supply, and Amperex 6922's in the line stage.

Whether spending $3000-3500 for a "rebuilt" pre-amp is of value to you, only you can decide. This is a physically well-built unit, with a floating circuit board. And I've come to really appreciate the tube-based power supply.

Also, it really looks cool in the dark with the covers off, and the 6CA4 glowing.

Hm. that was cool.

thanks mike

Hi Kublakhan,

As the guy that designed the Counterpoint SA-5.1 and who is presently offering the upgrades for it, I just want to add a couple of comments. The realities of manufacturing for the retail market make it really hard to offer as good a value to the customer as we'd like. Retailers get about 50% of the customer's money; and on a new product, over 2/3rds of the cost of parts goes to parts not in the signal path, like the chassis and knobs and front panel (this last must be expensive because hi-fi gear is often judged by how it looks). Shipping cartons, medical insurance for employees, really expensive shows and even more expensive magazine advertising . . . all these force a designer to spend far less on the signal path than he might like. I know that I always struggled with that at Counterpoint if Marketing were to request a $3,500 preamp (say), which I knew gave me a budget of about $240 for the electronic parts.

Which is what all other manufacturers have to deal with -- Counterpoint was not unique. (I go into this in a bit more detail at http://www.altavistaaudio.com/why_upgrade.html).

When comparing a $3,500 new preamp against spending $3,500 on an older preamp + it's upgrades, I personally think you're spending the money more where it counts: on the electronics in the signal path. You're not buying new chassis or "cosmetics," you're not paying a retail markup, you're not paying a guy (me) who is spending beaucoup bucks on advertising and shows and trips around the world to service overseas markets. While every dollar that you spend retail nets you about seven cents of electronic parts, a dollar spent on my upgrades nets about ten times that in parts. And the parts I use are amazingly better-sounding than the parts Counterpoint (or ARC/cj/VAC, et al) could ever use simply because they are so expensive. And they sound like it -- they sound lovely.

I guess one final comment I'd like to make -- and thanks Frogman for offering your experience -- is that while Frogman is comparing a factory stock, manufactured in the 1980's preamp to other preamps, the upgraded SA-5.1 has handily trounced preamps costing upwards of $12,000 in dealer showroom and customer listening tests. It's just a really cost-effective way to get phenomenal sound IMHO.

Michael Elliott

Thanks for the info, frogman. you're probably right, that modding gear still keeps a certain personality inherent in the design. i wish there were a way to listen to a full blown elliot mod though.

Hey Kubla, glad to share my reactions to your query. I will go through a brief "personal pre-amp history", which includes the Counterpoint 5.1, to hopefully put my comments in perspective.

A 5.1 replaced an Audible Illusions 4D a few years ago. The Counterpoint made the Audible, despite the latter's superior soundstage stability, sound like it was on Valium; slow and lethargic. The 5.1 also had more natural tonal colors; the AI's sounded and still sound, to my ears, too "gray" and slightly bleached out sounding; and don't boogie.

After trying and living with an AR SP14, Threshhold FET 10, Classe 6, and Quicksilver, I settled on a Melos 222C. In my opinion, the Melos is in a different class altogether. It's got the bass extension of the FET, the soundstaging of the Classe and even better dynamics than the Counterpoint; and tonally it sounds much more like the real thing. By the way, in my system, the only one of the above that I would not rate as an across the board improvement over the 5.1 was the FET 10 (too mechanical and analytical).

Having done the expensive mod thing with other products over the years, the end result for me has always been that the basic character of the product is retained with relatively subtle improvements in certain areas. Now, for all I know Elliot's mods are brilliant, but my strong gut reaction is that for $3500 you can get a pretty great pre that will be, with the possible exception of dynamics, superior to the Counterpoint.

May I also suggest that you give George Kay (of NYAL fame) a call. He modded my 5.1 for a heck of a lot less than $3500, with positive results; again, the basic character of the piece did not change. He lives locally (NYC), but I don't have his number in front of me. If you are interested, I will get it to you.

Good luck.